Is needing a ticket before travel obvious?

[NSB2017]

Split from another thread:

I agree - the previous Northern franchise seemed one of few operators that actually (slightly) advertised the potential ramifications of boarding without a ticket, where you could have bought one. But new Northern doesn't do that, and I'm certainly not aware of any other operator that advertises it. Seems a little underhanded, doesn't it!

Is it not obvious that one has to purchase a ticket before getting on a train? To take the above to the extreme, should everyone wear a sign stating the potential repercussions for someone who wants to stab them in order for said repercussions to be available?

I have some sympathy with those on the lines where buying on board has been the norm, or at least perceived to be, but for someone traveling from a busy, staffed station is it really believable that someone logically thought “oh, I’ll just get on”?

 

[cuccir]

This comes up with some frequency.

I have a lot of sympathy with people who are familiar with parts of the country where buying on board remains common. Take the thread you linked to*, which involved a journey from Newcastle to Durham. On this route - which is my commute - I've staff from all TOCs (Northern, CrossCountry, LNER, TPE) selling tickets on board; most without comment and only occasionally (usually CrossCountry) with any advice to buy before travelling. This is despite both stations having ticket offices and multiple ticket vending machines. There are posters at both stations, and warnings posted onto the electronic information boards, which state you need to buy before boarding. How prominent they are is a different matter.

It would be hard to argue that the average traveller, who is familiar with this route, would be aware of (1) the potential severity of the punishments for ticketless travel (2) the 'strict liability' requirement in law to have a ticket before boarding (3) the strictness with which this requirement is implemented in other parts of the network.

Equally, a good fraction of people boarding without tickets do so with a broad intention to pay, but will be happy if they "get lucky" and don't see a guard on their travels. People know that they need to buy a ticket; I think they just expect the punishment for not doing so to be a "fine" (in the colloquial sense) in the region of tens of pounds, rather than anything more severe.

So the TOCs could do more to highlight the potential severity of not having a ticket and I'd like greater consistency in which discretion is shown only where circumstances are unusual. Penalty Fares as punishment for the first instance of ticketless travel should really be nationally consistent. Yet it's also true that many people who travel without tickets on 'pay when challenged' basis are engaged in a form of willful ignorance, where they know they probably ought to have purchased a ticket, but hope that they might get away with it.



* Though note in this thread there is the compounding issue of someone asking to buy from a station at which they did not start their journey.

 

[yorkie]

Is it not obvious that one has to purchase a ticket before getting on a train?

No, it isn't. Try entering Garforth station from the north side of town, heading towards York.

Is there an obligation to carry out a sweep of all platforms in case there is a hidden TVM? I think that is unreasonable.

Talking of York, if you use Grand Central and want the company to get all the revenue, you have to buy on board.

... but for someone traveling from a busy, staffed station is it really believable that someone logically thought “oh, I’ll just get on”?

When I am travelling from the busy staffed station of York and want to take Grand Central, that is exactly what I do.

Is it believable? well, you can choose not to believe the reality if you want!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is it obvious? No, not at all. Not least because on the mode of public transport that is most used in this country, the bus, outside London it is not possible in most cases to buy a ticket other than having stepped aboard the vehicle.

What makes it obvious is having to pass through either ticket barriers to board, or something that looks like ticket barriers. The latter might seem strange, but on most German U-Bahn systems to get to the platform you don't pass a ticket barrier, but you do pass a line, which is typically delimited by one or all of the following:-
- An obvious printed/painted line on the floor
- An obvious and large sign hanging from the ceiling, usually the full width of the corridor
- Some "pseudo ticket barriers", e.g. things that look rather like bicycle Sheffield stands mounted longitudinally in the corridor so you walk between them. Often the stamping machine, where applicable, is mounted on one of these.

A couple of example photos of the above:

Having a PF poster which you may or may not see and a TVM on the other platform (yes, you, Northern) is inadequate.

 

[trentside]

This comes up with some frequency.

I have a lot of sympathy with people who are familiar with parts of the country where buying on board remains common. Take the thread you linked to, which involved a journey from Newcastle to Durham. On this route - which is my commute - I've staff from all TOCs (Northern, CrossCountry, LNER, TPE) selling tickets on board; most without comment and only occasionally (usually CrossCountry) with any advice to buy before travelling. This is despite both stations having ticket offices and multiple ticket vending machines.

Edit- posted before finished writing, still working on it!

I’m in agreement, and this is why I’m relatively sympathetic when selling tickets from stations with facilities available. I usually take the approach of the CrossCountry guards and advise them that they should purchase before boarding as some colleagues will be less sympathic and charge them the Anytime fare without discounts. I’m often met with a response of “I didn’t know that”, and while ignorance is no excuse (especially with railcard T&Cs) I’d prefer to avoid the inevitable conflict that some of my colleagues thrive on.

 

[causton]

Talking of York, if you use Grand Central and want the company to get all the revenue, you have to buy on board.

When I am travelling from the busy staffed station of York and want to take Grand Central, that is exactly what I do.

Are we talking about "experienced rail travellers" or the "average passenger"?
I can imagine less than 1% of people travelling by rail care what percentage of revenue goes to which company.
And Grand Central is the only operator with a buy-on-board policy so yes, this is one obvious and large exception to the rule.

 

[Puffing Devil]

Early morning train last week, passenger boards passing both a ticket office (open) and a machine (working). Guard sells a ticket to the next station without batting an eyelid. No warning about buy before you board, or Penalty Fares.

This was a Northern Train on a PF line. No wonder the passengers are getting mixed messages and it explains the shock and horror posts when people realised the legal implications of their actions.

 

[Puffing Devil]

Is it obvious? No, not at all. Not least because on the mode of public transport that is most used in this country, the bus, outside London it is not possible in most cases to buy a ticket other than having stepped aboard the vehicle.

What makes it obvious is having to pass through either ticket barriers to board, or something that looks like ticket barriers. The latter might seem strange, but on most German U-Bahn systems to get to the platform you don't pass a ticket barrier, but you do pass a line, which is typically delimited by one or all of the following:-
- An obvious printed/painted line on the floor
- An obvious and large sign hanging from the ceiling, usually the full width of the corridor
- Some "pseudo ticket barriers", e.g. things that look rather like bicycle Sheffield stands mounted longitudinally in the corridor so you walk between them. Often the stamping machine, where applicable, is mounted on one of these.

A couple of example photos of the above:

Having a PF poster which you may or may not see and a TVM on the other platform (yes, you, Northern) is inadequate.

Effective and more expensive than a couple of Posters/Signs.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Early morning train last week, passenger boards passing both a ticket office (open) and a machine (working). Guard sells a ticket to the next station without batting an eyelid. No warning about buy before you board, or Penalty Fares.

This was a Northern Train on a PF line. No wonder the passengers are getting mixed messages and it explains the shock and horror posts when people realised the legal implications of their actions.

This is certainly an issue, and with very few RPIs is what causes issues on WMT as well.

There needs to be a rule that in Penalty Fares areas there is NO on board ticket sales at the normal rate, only at PF. That could mean needing a change to staffing arrangements, i.e. where a guard is alone they do not do revenue other than from stations with no facilities at all, but instead of having RPI "hit squads" you split the teams up and put one or two with guards on a rotating basis, then they go through and do PFs if people don't have reasonable excuse as well as selling tickets if they do.

This would of course almost certainly require "buying guards out" of commission.

 

[Bertie the bus]

In many cases of course it is obvious you should purchase a ticket before travel. At stations where the only way you can enter is by passing a ticket office you have to wonder how these accidental chancers don’t notice the queue of people waiting under a sign that says “Tickets” and wonder why the people are queuing there.

There are of course stations where ticket purchasing facilities aren’t obvious and the people who claim it is always the TOC’s fault choose these examples carefully to prove their point but the thought that most passengers start their journeys at stations like Mytholmroyd is laughable.

 

[danm14]

I grew up in one of the many parts of Ireland without trains. It certainly wasn't obvious to me.

When I moved to a part of Ireland with trains, I had never been on one before. Indeed, I'd only ever been on a bus about five times. I had no concept of the requirement to buy a ticket before boarding, where else would you buy it other than on the train?

I walked into the station, past the ticket office and machines (both of which were off to the side and out of my line of vision) and approached the ticket barriers. I had never seen such things before, and assumed they were turnstiles to count passengers, so I attempted to push through them. Needless to say, I wasn't successful.

The clerk in the ticket office angrily shouted at me asking what I thought I was doing, to which I replied that I wanted to get on the train. He started shouting about needing to buy a ticket first, but soon realised that I was completely genuine and had no understanding of how to use the train.

If one of the barriers was open, which they often are at my station, I would have walked straight onto the platform, boarded the train, and received a €100 fine for having no ticket.

If this had happened in the UK, I wouldn't like to imagine what would have happened to me if I'd attempted to force my way through the barriers.

 

[najaB]

No, it isn't. Try entering Garforth station from the north side of town, heading towards York.

Is there an obligation to carry out a sweep of all platforms in case there is a hidden TVM? I think that is unreasonable.

You're answering a different question "Is it obvious how to pay for your ticket?" - I agree that it isn't always.

The question being asked is "Is it obvious that you should pay for a ticket before travelling?"

 

[Silverdale]

It's understandably confusing for passengers that, while the requirement exists to purchase beforehand if facilities are available, they are readily sold tickets on board even when that is the case.

If it was merely confusing, that would be an issue of poor customer relations. That failing to meet the requirement happens to be a criminal offence of strict liability raises the bar and I feel it places a responsibility on the train operators to explain each and every time they sell a ticket on board, why they are not issuing a penalty fare or reporting the customer for committing a byelaw offence, on that occasion.

 

[thejuggler]

In many cases of course it is obvious you should purchase a ticket before travel. At stations where the only way you can enter is by passing a ticket office you have to wonder how these accidental chancers don’t notice the queue of people waiting under a sign that says “Tickets” and wonder why the people are queuing there.

There are of course stations where ticket purchasing facilities aren’t obvious and the people who claim it is always the TOC’s fault choose these examples carefully to prove their point but the thought that most passengers start their journeys at stations like Mytholmroyd is laughable.

Its a circular argument. While ever the opportunity is offered to buy on board why bother buying beforehand (regardless of what the signs and laws say)?

If on board purchases included a surcharge it may change habits, but then you need to manage the situation of the out of order TVM when there is then no choice but to buy on board or at destination.

 

[anme]

I actually have quite a lot of sympathy with people who were caught out like this.

I used to make a journey every day along a line with only fairly busy, staffed stations, and with penalty fares. Personally I always had a ticket, but when a guard came through the carriage there were always a few people without tickets. They were almost always sold a ticket by the guard. Some guards actually announced that if anyone needed a ticket, please stop them as they walk through the train. At least one would announce that he sold season tickets.

Occasionally, a guard would tell a passenger buying a ticket that they should have bought one before they boarded, but this was unusual.

Very occasionally, an RPI would board the train and give a load of people penalty fares. I always felt this was harsh, given that on 95%+ days, you would be sold a ticket on the train and not even told you were doing anything wrong.

 

[VT 390]

i.e. where a guard is alone they do not do revenue other than from stations with no facilities at all

What happens if you board at a station which has a working ticket machine and and no ticket office and you want to buy a ticket which ticket machines do not sell such as a rover or ranger ticket?

 

[Bertie the bus]

Its a circular argument. While ever the opportunity is offered to buy on board why bother buying beforehand (regardless of what the signs and laws say)?

I think you need to ask yourself the question how do these people know there will be an opportunity to purchase on board? Obviously once they have purchased on board they know but the first time?

As for why bother buying beforehand? That wasn't the question asked and as I alluded to people who can't be bothered are mainly chancers. The question was is it obvious you should?

 

[NSB2017]

The comment comparing with bus travel is fair. Although, with the exception of buses with more than one door (if there are any left), I can’t imagine many people would walk on, straight past the driver and sit down.

Also interesting regarding the strict liability issue. It’s either an offence or it isn’t, and confusion does seem to be added when those without a ticket are merely sold the ticket they would have bought if they had done so prior to getting on.

Perhaps it’s largely down to the experience of the local route. If someone has always bought on board, or has regularly seen people buy on board at a standard fare, I can understand the issue.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What happens if you board at a station which has a working ticket machine and and no ticket office and you want to buy a ticket which ticket machines do not sell such as a rover or ranger ticket?

OK, we're getting onto semantics.

What I'm referring to is the fact that on most TOCs guards are presently selling single and return tickets, often discounted ones, to people who are not entitled to buy them on board because they didn't before boarding. And that causes confusion.

OK, here's a better one - under no circumstances should anyone on board a train in a PF area be sold any non-PF ticket unless they had no means of obtaining it before boarding using their desired method of payment (which must be the same one used for purchase on the train, so saying you wanted to pay cash then producing a card = PF).

 

[Kite159]

Its a circular argument. While ever the opportunity is offered to buy on board why bother buying beforehand (regardless of what the signs and laws say)?

If on board purchases included a surcharge it may change habits, but then you need to manage the situation of the out of order TVM when there is then no choice but to buy on board or at destination.

Agreed, if tickets can be purchased from the guard on the train at the same price as it would be on the station (for example a short journey where the only fares are anytime), why bother buying before you board as you could get away without paying if the train is busy/guard has a broken machine etc.

(Assuming that both station A & B are both open with no gatelines and have open ticket offices/TVMs).

You see members of the "pay when challenged" brigade chancing their luck.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Precisely my point.

If every time you were challenged you were PFed, even if that meant being challenged less often because guards would only do tickets if accompanied by a second member of revenue staff to ensure safety, that would give rise to a different attitude.

At the moment on the south WCML, at least pre the increase in barrier staffing (with single members of staff who probably just give you a ticking off and let you out), the thought pattern would be "I might get a PF but most likely the guard will sell me a ticket".

 

[Bantamzen]

Split from another thread:

Is it not obvious that one has to purchase a ticket before getting on a train? To take the above to the extreme, should everyone wear a sign stating the potential repercussions for someone who wants to stab them in order for said repercussions to be available?

Now the easy answer might be yes it is obvious that you should buy a ticket before boarding, after all many services in this country require us to pay before receiving. However in the real world not everyone is aware of that and so maybe there will be people that would not think to seek for a way to pay before boarding, regardless of there being a ticket office and/or ticket machine at their station of origin.

In this day and age most people (certainly in this country) have access to the world's repository of useful information, the Internet (yes, there is useful information out there amongst all the noise! ). So I would expect most people thinking of using the railway network for the first time (assuming that nobody they knew had any experience) & with access to the net would head for this to see what the deal was. And they'd probably firstly stumble across the myriad of ticket sites selling tickets, or perhaps the National Rail site to look for buying options. So one would hope that this would lead most to the conclusion that yes, you should buy a ticket before boarding. For example recently my better half & I stayed at a family villa in Spain. As neither of us drive, I took the time to look at transfer options from the airport including the train, how to buy tickets & some key Spanish phrases. Just a few minutes browsing gave me all the detail I needed to plan the basics.

But of course there are some people without access to the net, or people with basic knowledge of the network so there should always be some level of consideration for these people by guards or RPOs. And to be fair this discretion is often applied from what I can see. There will always be that "jobsworth" who won't be as considerate of course, but that is true of all walks of life.

I have some sympathy with those on the lines where buying on board has been the norm, or at least perceived to be, but for someone traveling from a busy, staffed station is it really believable that someone logically thought “oh, I’ll just get on”?

Indeed, but there are plenty of stations where the requirement for having a ticket before boarding is very obvious. I've followed people in the past through the north concourse at Leeds, past the banks of Virgin/LNER & Northern ticket machines, and ticket office, up to the barriers where passengers in front have used tickets to pass through, only for said persons to ask gateline staff to let them through because they didn't know where / how to buy a ticket & they'll "get it on the train mate".

Agreed, if tickets can be purchased from the guard on the train at the same price as it would be on the station (for example a short journey where the only fares are anytime), why bother buying before you board as you could get away without paying if the train is busy/guard has a broken machine etc.

(Assuming that both station A & B are both open with no gatelines and have open ticket offices/TVMs).

You see members of the "pay when challenged" brigade chancing their luck.

My guess is that PF schemes say that "you may receive a Penalty Fare" if challenged. And as most guards are not authorised to issue these, the next logical step would be simply to sell the relevant ticket although I do think they should mention the issue of FPs and the need to buy before boarding. Of course another option would be to apply a premium to ticket sales onboard, providing of course facilities were available at the origin station. Nothing changes customer behaviour more than telling someone they could have saved x% by buying earlier!

 

[Bletchleyite]

My guess is that PF schemes talk say that "you may receive a Penalty Fare" if challenged. And as most guards are not authorised to issue these, the next logical step would be simply to sell the relevant ticket although I do think they should mention the issue of FPs and the need to buy before boarding. Of course another option would be to apply a premium to ticket sales onboard, providing of course facilities were available at the origin station. Nothing changes customer behaviour more than telling someone they could have saved x% by buying earlier!

They do indeed say "may have to pay" but in my view that is being misinterpreted from the genuine exceptions, such as those situations where an excess is an entitlement. In my view if a ticket check is conducted in a PF area and there is no ticket held or valid reason for not holding one, it should ALWAYS result in a PF. Other countries manage that, why not us?

With increased roll-out of things like mobile ticketing and TVMs I could see a case for "tickets on board always cost 5% extra with a minimum extra fee of £5", say, but that's something a bit different. That of course (flat CHF10) was the policy in Switzerland until they went for PFs for everything.

 

[sprunt]

the people who claim it is always the TOC’s fault choose these examples carefully to prove their point but the thought that most passengers start their journeys at stations like Mytholmroyd is laughable.

Can you cite an example of anyone claiming that it is always the TOC's fault? Typically, suggestions that an incident is the TOC's fault arise from discussion of a specific incident starting at a station such as Mytholmroyd, not from people picking out a station to prove a point.

 

[Kite159]

My guess is that PF schemes say that "you may receive a Penalty Fare" if challenged. And as most guards are not authorised to issue these, the next logical step would be simply to sell the relevant ticket although I do think they should mention the issue of FPs and the need to buy before boarding. Of course another option would be to apply a premium to ticket sales onboard, providing of course facilities were available at the origin station. Nothing changes customer behaviour more than telling someone they could have saved x% by buying earlier!

Depends what the % saving is, if its small then some folk will still attempt to get away without buying before they board. For example if the off-peak day return is £9.90 but the anytime day return is £10.00, paying an extra 10p is worth the risk of not getting gripped and paying £0.

 

[Bantamzen]

They do indeed say "may have to pay" but in my view that is being misinterpreted from the genuine exceptions, such as those situations where an excess is an entitlement. In my view if a ticket check is conducted in a PF area and there is no ticket held or valid reason for not holding one, it should ALWAYS result in a PF. Other countries manage that, why not us?

Well perhaps that is they way things will eventually go? I'm not sure if I'm in favour of it or not to be honest, but maybe in time it might have to become the default position.

With increased roll-out of things like mobile ticketing and TVMs I could see a case for "tickets on board always cost 5% extra with a minimum extra fee of £5", say, but that's something a bit different. That of course (flat CHF10) was the policy in Switzerland until they went for PFs for everything.

This would be a preferred method for me I have to say, mainly because it takes away some potential for misunderstandings & unwarranted PFs / fines when passengers have a genuine reason not to have a valid ticket on boarding.

Depends what the % saving is, if its small then some folk will still attempt to get away without buying before they board. For example if the off-peak day return is £9.90 but the anytime day return is £10.00, paying an extra 10p is worth the risk of not getting gripped and paying £0.

I'd say something along the lines that @Bletchleyite suggested above.

 

[mallard]

What happens if you board at a station which has a working ticket machine and and no ticket office and you want to buy a ticket which ticket machines do not sell such as a rover or ranger ticket?

Unfortunately, NRCoT section 6.1 simply states "You must have a valid Ticket to travel before you board a train where there was the opportunity to buy one unless one of the following circumstances applies:" (it then lists a few possibilities, none of which apply in this case). It doesn't even allow for non-accepted payment method (is that in the Penalty Fare regulations?).

As long as it's possible to purchase a valid ticket (any valid ticket), then you must do so. If that's not the ticket you want then the rules are best interpreted as "tough luck". In theory, a TOC could install a TVM that only sells first class 2-week ALRs and prosecute anyone who doesn't buy one! The old NRCoC had a clause that allowed for the exchange of the ticket you could buy with the one you wanted (with the cost of the original ticket taken off the new one), but that was deleted when the conditions were replaced. It probably caused problems with revenue allocation.

 

[kristiang85]

Its only since I joined this forum I realised that it was so widespread you couldn't buy tickets on the train; I've always done so personally as I've always had a railcard of some sort, and I don't want to risk that being invalid for my journey or indeed for long-distance trains I like to get advance tickets.

Personally, I think it should be allowable to buy on board provided a) You actively find the guard first (this is the rule in Poland), and b) You can't use railcards (which I think is the policy anyway).

You should not be penalised if your train is about to leave and you're still waiting in a long queue.

But hopefully, technology will solve all this and we can at some point in the furture have a smartcard tap-in system nationally.

 

[najaB]

Personally, I think it should be allowable to buy on board provided a) You actively find the guard first (this is the rule in Poland), and b) You can't use railcards (which I think is the policy anyway).

And if there isn't a guard?

 

[Bletchleyite]

And if there isn't a guard?

You could have a system of clearly marking such trains as Switzerland did prior to switching to PFs on all trains. The eye symbol was used on the train, on the PIS and in the timetable.