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Is needing a ticket before travel obvious?

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yorkie

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Which is definitely a problem - and that's the question that @yorkie was answering:
How long should someone spend using footbridges or underpasses walking up and down each platform, in your opinion? I know you said earlier you want people to make a quick look around, but how long is quick?

I'd say there is a case to say that if you arrive through an entrance onto the correct platform, there should be no obligation to use any footbridges or underpasses to go looking at other platforms on the off-chance that an unsigned/unadvertised TVM is present.
 
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Bletchleyite

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How long should someone spend using footbridges or underpasses walking up and down each platform, in your opinion? I know you said earlier you want people to make a quick look around, but how long is quick?

I'd say there is a case to say that if you arrive through an entrance onto the correct platform, there should be no obligation to use any footbridges or underpasses to go looking at other platforms on the off-chance that an unsigned/unadvertised TVM is present.

I can see that case, and the obvious extension of it should be that it should not be possible to enter a railway station by any public entrance (i.e. one not clearly signposted as private AND normally locked) without walking past one of the following, positioned such that it is abundantly clear that you need to read it (e.g. requiring you to step sideways to walk around it):-

1. A staffed ticket office
2. A TVM capable of selling singles and returns to all destinations from that station with cash and card payment accepted
3. A clear, standard railway poster sized, sign indicating what the expected means of payment for a journey by card or a journey by cash is, and where this can be found
4. A ticket barrier requiring insertion of a valid ticket to proceed, which is in service at all times (otherwise one of 1-3 should also be required)

That Northern can't even be bothered to provide #3 in most cases speaks volumes.
 
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Belperpete

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This only became a problem because of the introduction of open stations, where you can just walk onto the platform, often without directly passing any ticket-issuing facilities, usually because the ticket office or platform access was not relocated when the station was made open. The onus of buying a ticket was then passed to the passenger, without any sustained public education to back it up.

I suspect that even in this day and age, most people's source of information when making their first rail journey will not be the internet, but discussing their plans with friends and family. And if the friend says, "just get on the train and pay the guard, that's what I did when I last travelled, and I had no problem", that's what they'll do.

However, the biggest problem in my view is the normalising of paying on the train, by guards who just sell a ticket without telling the passenger that they have done anything wrong. I fully sympathise with people who have come to think that paying on the train is acceptable practice through this, and suddenly get caught out by an RPI. Yes, I know that strictly speaking ignorance of the law is no excuse, but this does seem to be laying a trap for people to fall into.

In addition, most people's first experience of public transport is usually the bus. If you routinely catch a bus at a bus station with a ticket office, it is usually perfectly acceptable to pay on the bus, so why wouldn't you assume that the same applies at a railway station with a ticket office? Likewise there a places where ticket machines are sometimes provided at bus stops to speed boarding, but it is still perfectly acceptable to pay the on the bus.

The first time my sister travelled from South London to central London (in pre Oyster card days) she only realised that she had to get a ticket first before boarding because there was a man in a booth who wanted to see her ticket before she could get onto the platform. So when she got off the train at Victoria she then bought another ticket for the underground. And then when she changed tubes at Oxford Circus, she went back up and bought another ticket for the central line! She hadn't realised that you could buy one ticket for the whole journey, she was just so used to having to buy a fresh ticket every time she changed buses, she just assumed the same applied on the railway.

So, my answer to the original question "is it obvious that you need a ticket before boarding?", is no it isn't, not unless there is an obvious barrier line before you get to the platform.
 

PeterC

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Before it was rebuilt Blackfriars had a side entrance which took you direct to the northbound Thameslink platform without any indication that you should go down a side passage to your left to buy a ticket. There was a booth at the top of the stairs which always seemed to be empty but looked as if it might be where you could buy a ticket if you looked from the street.

The first time that I used it I was very relieved that I had a travelcard as, otherwise, I would have missed my train by going back to find the ticket office, a few months later there was the very high profile case of Cheri Blair doing the same thing and jumping straight on the arriving train.
 

TurbostarFan

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Funnily enough some stations, for example Chelmsford, have a side entrance with a sign making it clear that it is for "Ticket holders only".

There some other other stations, for example Wymondham and Attleborough, which have ticket issuing facilities and a side entrance with a sign allowing passengers who enter via the side entrance to buy their tickets onboard the train.
 

cjp

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The other week I got to my local station as the train was there and I did not want to miss it as would happen if hunted for my Freedom Pass and touched in so I threw myself on the train prepared if ticket examiners came along to pay a penalty. No one came along as luck would have it and at the destination the pass opened the barrier and the word exit showed on the display.
I have no idea how revenue works on a Freedom pass but am I am right in thinking that like my PAYG Oyster no touch in means maximum revenue for the TOC on exit as it does when I combine a ticket to to the boundary station when travelling on Chiltern to Marylebone from Oxfordshire? If yes I feel less guilty.
For that matter can all these hand held readers check you have touched in with a freedom pass as some examiners just look at it smile and walk by?
 

najaB

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How long should someone spend using footbridges or underpasses walking up and down each platform, in your opinion? I know you said earlier you want people to make a quick look around, but how long is quick?
I'd say it not unreasonable for a two-platform station to have a TVM only on one platform, as long as it's visible from the opposite platform. It's not something that I want to put a specific number on but it should, ideally, be possible to determine the presence or absence of ticket vending facilities in under a minute.
 

WelshBluebird

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And I would agree, the NRE pages do seem to be out of date in places. And as with any old signs instructing passengers to buy onboard, I would ask has anyone flagged it up with the site owners?

The problem there though is:
  1. If it is a station I haven't been to, then I can't know it isn't accurate.
  2. If I do know it isn't accurate, then who do I contact? NRE? The ToC who manages the station? I've been bounced between both in the past when questioning something mentioned on NRE.
  3. It isn't my job to make sure NRE is up to date. I don't think it is right to pin an industry failing on the passengers!

Which is definitely a problem - and that's the question that @yorkie was answering:

But that just leads back to a comment you made where you thought just because it wasn't obvious how to buy a ticket then it doesn't necessarily meant it isn't obvious that you should buy a ticket before travelling.
I disagree - if it isn't obvious how you buy a ticket at the station that in my view that means the natural assumption is that you don't have to buy one before boarding. And hell, even you have made noises towards that in your later posts - you suggest under a minute as a decent amount of time for example!
 

najaB

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I disagree - if it isn't obvious how you buy a ticket at the station that in my view that means the natural assumption is that you don't have to buy one before boarding. And hell, even you have made noises towards that in your later posts - you suggest under a minute as a decent amount of time for example!
I think we're speaking at cross-purposes. The question as I understand it is: "Is it commonly accepted that, generally speaking, you should pay for a ticket before you travel by train?" where the question as you understand it seems to be "Does the design and layout of train stations (either generally or in specific cases) make it clear that purchasing facilities exist and should be used?"
 

Bantamzen

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The problem there though is:
  1. If it is a station I haven't been to, then I can't know it isn't accurate.
  2. If I do know it isn't accurate, then who do I contact? NRE? The ToC who manages the station? I've been bounced between both in the past when questioning something mentioned on NRE.
  3. It isn't my job to make sure NRE is up to date. I don't think it is right to pin an industry failing on the passengers!
Maybe I've been too subtle in the past, so let me be blunt. I wouldn't expect a random passenger, unfamiliar with a station to know or not know if a details of a station on NRE are accurate or not. However there are some people who do know when things are inaccurately detailed on NRE or TOC websites & choose to revel in it rather than simply flag the issue up with the key stakeholder. Personally if I see something like incorrect information, or say a broken TVM, I choose to make contact to flag the issue up. Its how a functional society works, if something isn't right you try make those able to correct it aware. Sadly with the spread of social media, it seems more popular just to moan & whinge about it whilst expecting someone just to suddenly know about it. Its a bit like standing under a broken lamppost, complaining about it in the expectation that someone from the council will miraculously appear & fix it.
 

yorkie

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I think we're speaking at cross-purposes. The question as I understand it is: "Is it commonly accepted that, generally speaking, you should pay for a ticket before you travel by train?"
No, it would not be universally accepted in areas where purchasing on the train is common practice, which is often the case on rural lines, especially for customers paying in cash.
 

TurbostarFan

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I'd say it not unreasonable for a two-platform station to have a TVM only on one platform, as long as it's visible from the opposite platform. It's not something that I want to put a specific number on but it should, ideally, be possible to determine the presence or absence of ticket vending facilities in under a minute.
Funnily enough Wymondham has a TVM only at the main entrance (near Platform 1), not at the side one. It isn't visible from Platform 2. Passengers travelling on a Greater Anglia service are allowed to buy onboard and if they are able to pay using cash they are allowed to buy onboard if they are travelling on an East Midlands Trains service. In practice EMT guards turn a blind eye to passengers paying by card when travelling from Wymondham, especially if they boarded the train from Platform 2 where they might not even know that the TVM exists!
 

sheff1

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However there are some people who do know when things are inaccurately detailed on NRE or TOC websites & choose to revel in it rather than simply flag the issue up with the key stakeholder. ....
.... Its a bit like standing under a broken lamppost, complaining about it in the expectation that someone from the council will miraculously appear & fix it.

And who is the key stakeholder ? As the poster to whom you responded explained, if you report it to NRE they refer you to the TOC. If you report it to the TOC they refer you to NRE. There should be a system in place for the relevant party (whoever they my be) to report the installation/withdrawal of a TVM at a specific station to the party responsible (whoever they may be) for updating the public facing info for that station. It should not be up to a layman to second guess who has the relevant responsibilities and point out their failure to meet them.

Reporting faults is a different matter altogether. Any decent council will clearly state where reports of, say, broken streetlights should be directed - the best councils affix a notice to each lamppost giving its' unique number along with contact details for reporting a fault. I have reported various infrastructure issues to my local council via the clearly advertised channels and they have all been dealt with, very often within 24 hours. I don't recall ever seeing a sign on a TVM explaining how, and to whom, a fault should be reported, never mind one telling you who to contact if the said TVM is not listed on the station page on NRE.
 
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TurbostarFan

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And who is the key stakeholder ? As the poster to whom you responded explained, if you report it to NRE they refer you to the TOC. If you report it to the TOC they refer you to NRE. There should be a system in place for the relevant party (whoever they my be) to report the installation/withdrawal of a TVM at a specific station to the party responsible (whoever they may be) for updating the public facing info for that station. It should not be up to a layman to second guess who has the relevant responsibilities and point out their failure to meet them.

Reporting faults is a different matter altogether. Any decent council will clearly state where reports of, say, broken streetlights should be directed. The best councils affix a notice to each lamppost giving its' unique number along with contact details for reporting a fault. I don't recall ever seeing a sign on a TVM explaining how, and to whom, a fault should be reported, never mind one telling you who to contact if the said TVM is not listed on the station page on NRE.

An example of a TOC getting this right would be Greater Anglia, there is a sign on their TVMs that makes it clear that you can report faults via their phone number or website. In addition to that you can report it using one of Greater Anglia's help points, Greater Anglia have outsourced the answering of them to RDG (National Rail Enquiries are the brand).
 

wildcard

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Is the need for a ticket before boarding obvious ? - No. I suspect in most peoples eyes it's their intention to buy beforehand at their convenience but it's not essential ( so not a need ). If you have reason enough in your own mind - then you can board without. I have to say most people would think it's OK on the odd occasion you were running late and to queue at the ticket office or the TVM would mean missing your train. Anyone who missed their train to buy their ticket may cast the first stone. Added to that is the experience of regularly seeing passengers buying tickets on the train without any sort of comment being passed - normalises the practice . I travel off-peak on LNR into Euston at least once a week - my estimate is if I see the guard then more often than not , they are selling tickets. Overhearing the conversation , people are boarding at busy stations. Plus I can't remember a single cash transaction in the last six months so it can't be lack of a payment card for the TVM.
 

yorkie

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... it seems more popular just to moan & whinge about it ...
Not really; being able to have the convenience of buying on board without penalty isn't something any sensible person would moan or whinge about. Indeed, the likes of Hull Trains see it as a selling point to be promoted.
 

Bantamzen

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And who is the key stakeholder ? As the poster to whom you responded explained, if you report it to NRE they refer you to the TOC. If you report it to the TOC they refer you to NRE. There should be a system in place for the relevant party (whoever they my be) to report the installation/withdrawal of a TVM at a specific station to the party responsible (whoever they may be) for updating the public facing info for that station. It should not be up to a layman to second guess who has the relevant responsibilities and point out their failure to meet them.

Reporting faults is a different matter altogether. Any decent council will clearly state where reports of, say, broken streetlights should be directed - the best councils affix a notice to each lamppost giving its' unique number along with contact details for reporting a fault. I have reported various infrastructure issues to my local council via the clearly advertised channels and they have all been dealt with, very often within 24 hours. I don't recall ever seeing a sign on a TVM explaining how, and to whom, a fault should be reported, never mind one telling you who to contact if the said TVM is not listed on the station page on NRE.

I must confess I had always assumed that using the feedback option on the NRE site should be the first port of call. But if not I would feedback to both NRE and the TOC, and escalate with both if the both pointed to each other. As for TVM faults I have reported a couple in the last few months via the TOC Twitter teams and the issues have been resolved. So that seems to work.

Not really; being able to have the convenience of buying on board without penalty isn't something any sensible person would moan or whinge about. Indeed, the likes of Hull Trains see it as a selling point to be promoted.

I'm sorry, but I don't understand what your point is as I feel you have taken my quote out of context.
 

yorkie

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I'm sorry, but I don't understand what your point is as I feel you have taken my quote out of context.
I don't understand what you mean by moaning & whinging then; those of us disagreeing with you are not moaning & whinging at the lack of facilities; we are just stating that the lack of facilities means purchasing on board is custom and practice at such locations.
 

daodao

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I suspect many people's answer to that will simply depend on where they grew up / where they are used to using trains!
Ask me that 12 years ago before I moved away from the South Wales valleys and I would have no not at all.
Ask me that now, having used the railways up and down the country and my answer is it depends!

At a manned station - yes 100% of the time.
At an unmanned station where there are multiple TVM's - yes as long as they are in working order and the ticket required is offered by the machines.
At an unmanned station where there is just one TVM that is obvious / I have been to before so know where the TVM is - yes as long as it is in working order and the ticket required is offered by the machine.
At an unmanned station I have never been to before where there is no obvious TVM - probably not but I will still have a look in any place that makes sense (e.g. the entrance to the station I used, along the platform I am on and anywhere I may pass).
At an unmanned station I have never been to before where there is no obvious TVM and NRE says there are no ticketing facilities - no 100% of the time.

I lived for over 20 years overlooking Whitchurch (Glam) station. Whenever I used the train, I bought on board or at the excess fares desk at Cardiff Queen St or Central stations, only pre-booking for complicated journeys (such as on 1 occasion to Dublin Connolly).

Last year, I visited Cardiff after a long absence and travelled from Whitchurch to Bute Road, changing at Queen Street. The sole TVM wasn't working; following advice on this forum I took a photo of it in case of any issues. I had to struggle through the crowded peak hour train to reach the guard, from whom I was fortunately able to purchase a ticket. Again, I only did so as I was aware from this forum of the dire consequences of not doing so - previously I would have bought the ticket on reaching Queen St. It was very fortunate that I had bought a ticket before reaching Queen Street, as there were RPIs on the platform underpass tunnel at Queen Street stopping those without tickets. A criminal prosecution would have led to immediate suspension from my job.
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It is unacceptable for TOCs to enforce penalty fares and apply criminal prosecutions where inadequate ticket-purchasing facilities are provided pre-boarding. They could learn a lot regarding adequate TVM provision from Manchester Metrolink.
 

yorkie

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There is no requirement to go looking for on board staff in such circumstances; it's a myth which some badly informed people like to trot out.
 

ForTheLoveOf

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I lived for over 20 years overlooking Whitchurch (Glam) station. Whenever I used the train, I bought on board or at the excess fares desk at Cardiff Queen St or Central stations, only pre-booking for complicated journeys (such as on 1 occasion to Dublin Connolly).

Last year, I visited Cardiff after a long absence and travelled from Whitchurch to Bute Road, changing at Queen Street. The sole TVM wasn't working; following advice on this forum I took a photo of it in case of any issues. I had to struggle through the crowded peak hour train to reach the guard, from whom I was fortunately able to purchase a ticket. Again, I only did so as I was aware from this forum of the dire consequences of not doing so - previously I would have bought the ticket on reaching Queen St. It was very fortunate that I had bought a ticket before reaching Queen Street, as there were RPIs on the platform underpass tunnel at Queen Street stopping those without tickets. A criminal prosecution would have led to immediate suspension from my job.
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It is unacceptable for TOCs to enforce penalty fares and apply criminal prosecutions where inadequate ticket-purchasing facilities are provided pre-boarding. They could learn a lot regarding adequate TVM provision from Manchester Metrolink.
There would have been no question of prosecution or other penalties if you were unable to purchase your ticket before boarding, e.g. through a lack of functioning facilities. Taking a picture of broken TVMs is always a wise move, as it means you don't have to rely on the TOC telling the truth about the machine (not) working. But you are under no obligation to look for, or indeed fight through the train, to find the guard onboard the train if that happens, and you certainly cannot be penalised for not doing so.
 

Bantamzen

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I don't understand what you mean by moaning & whinging then; those of us disagreeing with you are not moaning & whinging at the lack of facilities; we are just stating that the lack of facilities means purchasing on board is custom and practice at such locations.

I was referring in my original post to people who complain about issues, but who don't report them.
 

Bantamzen

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Who is complaining about issues?

No-one in particular, I was referring to some people in general, they are happy to complain loudly about something but when you suggest doing something about it they fall silent. However there have seemingly been situations like this on these forums, for example the sign at Wakefield Kirkgate about buying on the train. Assuming it is is present (and I have no idea if it is), has anyone raised it with Northern formally?
 

Signal Head

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I'd say it not unreasonable for a two-platform station to have a TVM only on one platform, as long as it's visible from the opposite platform. It's not something that I want to put a specific number on but it should, ideally, be possible to determine the presence or absence of ticket vending facilities in under a minute.

It's not just visibility though, accessibility needs to be considered. I have posted in a previous thread about stations where a single machine is provided, but to access it, at one in particular, for anyone not able to use a set of steep steps, would involve a detour of approximately 400m in each direction, (ie a half mile round trip to buy a ticket).

There is another station where PF notices are present, again a single machine is provided, off one platform, and only obvious from one approach direction to that platform. Anyone approaching that platform from another direction will in fact be presented with a prominent BR era sign advising the alternative alternative entrance when the (peak hours only) ticket office is closed, and inviting passengers to purchase tickets on the train.

I'd like to see the TOC pursue a prosecution in that case, and I'm almost tempted to give it a try!
 

Bletchleyite

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I'd say it not unreasonable for a two-platform station to have a TVM only on one platform, as long as it's visible from the opposite platform. It's not something that I want to put a specific number on but it should, ideally, be possible to determine the presence or absence of ticket vending facilities in under a minute.

I think there are stations where that would be reasonable (I'm thinking suburban branch lines where there is no real reason to visit the outer end by train) but only where access between platforms is easy, and not where moving between them takes over 5 minutes (as it would at say Aughton Park).
 

exile

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But that requires a relatively high level of internet literacy; first you need to know that the information is there at all; then you need to know how to find it.
And that the information is CORRECT!
 

Wombat

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Perhaps this might be a nicer way of handling things:

You're approached by an RPI and you don't have a ticket because you didn't realise that you needed one. The RPI explains the situation and gives you two options:

a) You can pay a penalty fare of £x; or
b) You can provide your details and the TOC will send you a friendly letter, advising that no penalty will be applied this time, but that you're expected to follow the rules in future now that you're aware of them. They might even go so far as to enclose a cheerful leaflet describing their ticket-purchasing options.

I realise that this would have an administrative cost but it's a sacrifice that I'm happy for the TOC to make. (Less glibly, it's a sacrifice that I expect I'd ultimately pay for, which is also OK with me.)
 

ForTheLoveOf

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Perhaps this might be a nicer way of handling things:

You're approached by an RPI and you don't have a ticket because you didn't realise that you needed one. The RPI explains the situation and gives you two options:

a) You can pay a penalty fare of £x; or
b) You can provide your details and the TOC will send you a friendly letter, advising that no penalty will be applied this time, but that you're expected to follow the rules in future now that you're aware of them. They might even go so far as to enclose a cheerful leaflet describing their ticket-purchasing options.

I realise that this would have an administrative cost but it's a sacrifice that I'm happy for the TOC to make. (Less glibly, it's a sacrifice that I expect I'd ultimately pay for, which is also OK with me.)
Given that choice, why would anyone not go for the second option?
 
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