Is Pensioner free travel forcing up prices?

[Tetchytyke]

I highly doubt £7bn is correct.

That'll teach me to go off memory, it isn't correct. Last time this came up I said the correct amount: about £1.2bn.

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=2745695&postcount=301

Still, my point...

 

[Busaholic]

According to greenerjourneys.com it was about 1.3B in 2012 ...

Any idea how much of this £1.3 billion went to bus operators, and how much on administration?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

According to greenerjourneys.com it was about 1.3B in 2012 ...

I'd spotted that source. Interestingly, it also answers the question on amended ages for ENCTS in that raising the age threshold does have an effect on reducing the figures down but then the demographics feeding through (more baby boomers, longer life expectancy) mean that the percentage of pass holders will be restored by 2028.

Taking on Arctic's point, I'd certainly favour some sort of flat fare payment for each use of the pass as long as a) it is passed to the operators and b) the current funding level of public transport funding is maintained and used to support tendered services

 

[Robertj21a]

I'd spotted that source. Interestingly, it also answers the question on amended ages for ENCTS in that raising the age threshold does have an effect on reducing the figures down but then the demographics feeding through (more baby boomers, longer life expectancy) mean that the percentage of pass holders will be restored by 2028.

Taking on Arctic's point, I'd certainly favour some sort of flat fare payment for each use of the pass as long as a) it is passed to the operators and b) the current funding level of public transport funding is maintained and used to support tendered services

Yes, but isn't this yet another potential problem ? - if the passenger starts contributing, say, 50p, it just means that, over time, the amount reimbursed will also be allowed to dwindle.

 

[Stan Drews]

Any idea how much of this £1.3 billion went to bus operators, and how much on administration?

It's often argued that none of it goes to the bus operators, as it's actually the ENCTS card holders that are subsidised.

 

[overthewater]

Maybe there could go back to what has worked? Half fare during peak periods? 6am - 08.45 and then again from 4-6pm?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Yes, but isn't this yet another potential problem ? - if the passenger starts contributing, say, 50p, it just means that, over time, the amount reimbursed will also be allowed to dwindle.

Perhaps I should have been clearer in my line "the current funding level of public transport funding is maintained and used to support tendered services"

I wouldn't want existing funding to be reduced/removed. The current funding is £1.2bn. If you levied a 50p charge (allowing for a reduction of 20% in number of journeys), that would raise £500m to be used for maintaining/increasing ENCTS remuneration and protecting tendered services.

Also, we wouldn't want that to be preserved in aspic so a rise in line with CPI might also be a feature.

 

[Robertj21a]

Perhaps I should have been clearer in my line "the current funding level of public transport funding is maintained and used to support tendered services"

I wouldn't want existing funding to be reduced/removed. The current funding is £1.2bn. If you levied a 50p charge (allowing for a reduction of 20% in number of journeys), that would raise £500m to be used for maintaining/increasing ENCTS remuneration and protecting tendered services.

Also, we wouldn't want that to be preserved in aspic so a rise in line with CPI might also be a feature.

I quite understood your point about not wanting the funding reduced/removed - I'm just guessing that, regardless, it would anyway !

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I quite understood your point about not wanting the funding reduced/removed - I'm just guessing that, regardless, it would anyway !

Your cynicism is perhaps well placed. They don't like to hypothecate funds and supporting social care is infinitely more emotive.

Instead, we've got a death cycle of pensioner passes that have to be provided and funded, but a cut to local government finances so that tendered services are increasingly rare. Of course, no one dare cut the pensioner pass as they vote!

 

[Robertj21a]

Your cynicism is perhaps well placed. They don't like to hypothecate funds and supporting social care is infinitely more emotive.

Instead, we've got a death cycle of pensioner passes that have to be provided and funded, but a cut to local government finances so that tendered services are increasingly rare. Of course, no one dare cut the pensioner pass as they vote!

With the wonderful benefit of hindsight it was a a rather silly thing to do (I realise why it was done!) - or, at least, rather silly when the funding behind it couldn't really be guaranteed (and wasn't ring-fenced). However, we hadn't really had any similar scheme in the past where a company was legally obliged to transport people in exchange for a return that was largely outside their direct control, and which could be quite unrealistic !

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Maybe there could go back to what has worked? Half fare during peak periods? 6am - 08.45 and then again from 4-6pm?

How does that compare financially with that of the TfGM area that charges holders of the ENCTS pass full fare up to the end of the morning peak at 0930, the time when people are going to work, then free after that.

Employers are only bothered about staff arriving for work on time. They care naught about staff making their way home at the end of the working day.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I quite understood your point about not wanting the funding reduced/removed - I'm just guessing that, regardless, it would anyway !

Oh, I'm sure it would be too, I could see the fare being in lieu of reimbursement entirely.

The problem is what little ring-fenced funding there was for the scheme, grants from DfT, was removed. It's now funded entirely from the formula grant, along with all other council services. That's a deliberate political decision to give the political pain of removing subsidised bus services to local not central government. Councils get the grief, not central government, as we see even on here. People rail about Herts and North Yorkshire councils cutting funding for bus services without thinking about why it is they have to.

It is shameful, but then plenty from this government is.

 

[pemma]

How does that compare financially with that of the TfGM area that charges holders of the ENCTS pass full fare up to the end of the morning peak at 0930, the time when people are going to work, then free after that.

Employers are only bothered about staff arriving for work on time. They care naught about staff making their way home at the end of the working day.

They do care about employing people who aren't going to get fed up with the commute and apply for a job elsewhere as soon as a vacancy is advertised.

What's worth remembering though is during the morning peak school pupils, college students and workers all travel at around the same time. In the afternoon/evening it's quite often school pupils, then college students then workers.

Having an evening peak for the ENCTS pass could reduce weekday off-peak usage as it's possible some pensioners would rather have a free afternoon on Saturday than a reduced price afternoon out on Wednesday.

 

[ivanhoe]

There are a number of things that could be done in the immediate future in respect of ENCTS.

Firstly, Parliament needs to have the debate about the current viability of the Scheme and how it can be funded now that the dripping tap of Baby Boomers is starting to flow. Everybody should be honest about it, including may I say Bus Companies. So what are the options?
A. Make them Regional. I should not expect free travel if I have a day trip to London, Blackpool or Skegness. After all, when on holiday abroad, I pay ! Boundaries are always a problem but they can overlap to cover border towns and villages.
B. Flat fare of 50p per journey. (see D)
C. Pay an annual sum of say £50 to your local authority. This penalises poorer pensioners.
D. Is the problem more structural? i.e. Should we fix the Industry first? There are 6 different bus companies that operate in and out of Loughborough alone. The only inter operator pass is ENCTS.
Just a few thoughts. For the record, I'm a holder of an ENCTS pass and it's obvious to me that the current scheme is not sustainable without some intervention beyond 2020. Of course, the elephant in the room for 2020 is a general election.

 

[Busaholic]

There are a number of things that could be done in the immediate future in respect of ENCTS.

Firstly, Parliament needs to have the debate about the current viability of the Scheme and how it can be funded now that the dripping tap of Baby Boomers is starting to flow. Everybody should be honest about it, including may I say Bus Companies. So what are the options?
A. Make them Regional. I should not expect free travel if I have a day trip to London, Blackpool or Skegness. After all, when on holiday abroad, I pay ! Boundaries are always a problem but they can overlap to cover border towns and villages.
B. Flat fare of 50p per journey. (see D)
C. Pay an annual sum of say £50 to your local authority. This penalises poorer pensioners.
D. Is the problem more structural? i.e. Should we fix the Industry first? There are 6 different bus companies that operate in and out of Loughborough alone. The only inter operator pass is ENCTS.
Just a few thoughts. For the record, I'm a holder of an ENCTS pass and it's obvious to me that the current scheme is not sustainable without some intervention beyond 2020. Of course, the elephant in the room for 2020 is a general election.

I think you've summarised the different options well, but I'd like to add to and vary somewhat.

On A. I think it would be much more probable that each local authority provided a pass for travel in their area alone, perhaps with an arrangement with a neighbouring authority to allow for cross-border travel.

On B., reluctant though I am to concede the principle of free travel, I'd maybe accept a low flat fare if the scheme otherwise continued as now i.e. England-wide availability. There could be a problem with e.g. London where cash fares aren't accepted, but I daresay that's not insurmountable.

With C. I've always thought there should be a charge for issuing the pass in the first place, of maybe £10-£20, and perhaps again on five year reissue, but this should just reflect the actual cost of administration.

Like you, I am a passholder, but my actual bus rides using it are few and far between. I do, however, closely observe buses (could be a film title there) and watch who gets on them. Certainly, in my area, the older people using them don't in the main have their own car and are not amongst this supposed bunch of lotus eaters living high on the hog at the expense of poor enslaved wage-earners and salarymen, but then I don't live in London where (I agree) the Freedom Pass is a luxury that really can't be afforded.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Both my wife and I are in our 70's and the only real place that we used our ENCTS passes in recent years was when we were on holiday on the Isle of Wight where the buses provided a number of short trips to interesting places on the island.

Being holders of an ENCTS pass, we could not use then on visits to Llandudno/Conwy/Caernarfon nor on visits to Porthcawl/Bridgend/Cardiff, when we did not wish to use the 4 x4 on holiday local visits and were more than happy to pay the full price all day for the benefit of being able to relax and enjoy the areas without the need to have your eyes fixed on the road ahead.

I have not been able to drive since my stroke in 2012 under advice from my consultant and my good lady wife who has now reached the vintage age of 75 still enjoys driving, but she is now faced with a coming hip replacement operation in the near future.

 

[Robertj21a]

There are a number of things that could be done in the immediate future in respect of ENCTS.

Firstly, Parliament needs to have the debate about the current viability of the Scheme and how it can be funded now that the dripping tap of Baby Boomers is starting to flow. Everybody should be honest about it, including may I say Bus Companies. So what are the options?
A. Make them Regional. I should not expect free travel if I have a day trip to London, Blackpool or Skegness. After all, when on holiday abroad, I pay ! Boundaries are always a problem but they can overlap to cover border towns and villages.
B. Flat fare of 50p per journey. (see D)
C. Pay an annual sum of say £50 to your local authority. This penalises poorer pensioners.
D. Is the problem more structural? i.e. Should we fix the Industry first? There are 6 different bus companies that operate in and out of Loughborough alone. The only inter operator pass is ENCTS.
Just a few thoughts. For the record, I'm a holder of an ENCTS pass and it's obvious to me that the current scheme is not sustainable without some intervention beyond 2020. Of course, the elephant in the room for 2020 is a general election.

I make it 7 in Loughborough (assuming that you count Trent/Kinchbus as separate - as they are).

 

[ivanhoe]

I make it 7 in Loughborough (assuming that you count Trent/Kinchbus as separate - as they are).

Guilty as charged. I missed out Roberts Bus to Thurmaston

 

[Robertj21a]

Guilty as charged. I missed out Roberts Bus to Thurmaston

I guessed it would be that one !!

 

[Busaholic]

Guilty as charged. I missed out Roberts Bus to Thurmaston

Seeing as how it's Valentine's Day, going off-topic to apologise to the girl from Thurmaston I met in Minehead in 1967 who sent me a Valentine the following year and I never responded. I'd never heard of the place until then.

 

[carlberry]

Seeing as how it's Valentine's Day, going off-topic to apologise to the girl from Thurmaston I met in Minehead in 1967 who sent me a Valentine the following year and I never responded. I'd never heard of the place until then.

I may be sticking my neck out here, however I suspect she may not be reading this forum!! (Or if she is may be concentrating on the East Midlands related posts).

 

[Busaholic]

I may be sticking my neck out here, however I suspect she may not be reading this forum!! (Or if she is may be concentrating on the East Midlands related posts).

I sincerely hope she's not reading this, for a multitude of reasons but amongst them is that I don't want a Friends Reunited situation. Mind you, she'd be a bus pass qualifier now too.

 

[padbus]

Meanwhile in Torquay, Chelston Leisure Services t/a Local Link have given the statutory 56 days notice of the cancellation of all their local bus services. These are, as the name implies, local services filling in gaps in the Stagecoach network and have been operated on a commerical basis.

The reason for their withdrawal? Insufficient concessionary pass reimbursement.

http://www.localbustorbay.com/press-release/

 

[jammy36]

I thought this press release, which relates to Local Link's (an operator of a number of services in Torbay) decision to withdraw from local bus service operation would be of interest in the context of the present discussion. Torbay is an area with a high percentage of concessionary pass holders and sees significant numbers of pensionable age holidaymakers. Clearly this operator thinks that the system isn't fit for purpose and that reimbursement is one of a number (but clearly a major) of factors putting pressure on operators. Note also the comment about raising cash fares as being the only way to recover cost shortfalls...

“Let’s be clear – the local bus services operated by Chelston Leisure Services (t/a Local Link) are, primarily, operated commercially. They are NOT local authority tendered services. Local Link are a small operator and as such have lower overheads than larger bus operators and until now have been able to continue to run services that others would not have wished to operate commercially. Pressures on costs have made this more and more difficult in recent years.



One element of the shortfall in costs has been the reimbursement for English National Concessionary pass holders, because of the high retired population in Torbay many of the customers carried by the company hold these passes and the company has to be reimbursed for carrying them.



The level of reimbursement is based on a complex statutory formula and like many smaller operators the company is no longer satisfied that this formula is fit for purpose. This reduced reimbursement is just one element of the short fall that has hit operators in recent years.



It has become more and more difficult to recruit and retain suitable staff. Vehicle operating costs have increased in recent years with the need to invest in accessible vehicles and the cost of providing additional staff training all have to be borne by the operator. Insurance costs have also risen markedly. The only way to recover these costs is to increase fares considerably for those who still pay cash and the company do not believe that would be appropriate.



The potential implications for commercial bus operators of impending legislation are also a major concern. Local Link have considered all the factors and a decision has been made to pull out of the local bus service market. The company has given the statutory 56 days notice to terminate these services and this will give other operators an opportunity to come forward and indicate whether they wish to run any of these services or incorporate them into their existing networks. It will then be for the local authority to decide whether they wish to support any gaps in the network that continue to exist once operators have declared what if anything they wish to run commercially.”



On a more personal note, this is a very sad time for the operators and staff of the Local Link and we would like to take this opportunity to thank all our passengers for their support and continued loyalty over the past 13 years.



Derek and Jeanette French

PS sorry for the duplication of posts, padbus's post wasn't there when I started writing mine!

 

[pemma]

Both my wife and I are in our 70's and the only real place that we used our ENCTS passes in recent years was when we were on holiday on the Isle of Wight where the buses provided a number of short trips to interesting places on the island.

The use of bus passes when on holiday is what concerns a number of councils and operators. For instance, Blackpool council feel the ENCTS scheme is more of a drain on them than other councils as they get a higher number of pensioners visiting on holiday/day trips. While how quickly a band of rain moves through can make the difference between there being a few local pensioners using a bus for their shopping trip, or a large number of pensioners.

You're probably well aware Cheshire East council don't seem to see providing bus services to rural tourist attractions as something which is needed.

 

[AM9]

The use of bus passes when on holiday is what concerns a number of councils and operators. For instance, Blackpool council feel the ENCTS scheme is more of a drain on them than other councils as they get a higher number of pensioners visiting on holiday/day trips. While how quickly a band of rain moves through can make the difference between there being a few local pensioners using a bus for their shopping trip, or a large number of pensioners.

You're probably well aware Cheshire East council don't seem to see providing bus services to rural tourist attractions as something which is needed.

If the local economy is built on holiday business, then those visitors who bring that business using their ENCTS passes on bus journeys is part of the deal. The resorts can't have their cake and eat it.

 

[pemma]

If the local economy is built on holiday business, then those visitors who bring that business using their ENCTS passes on bus journeys is part of the deal. The resorts can't have their cake and eat it.

I'm too young to get an ENCTS pass so when I've been to Blackpool I've paid for public transport. Are you suggesting I should be offered free travel as well as I benefit the local economy?

Are you also suggesting that it's fair for a Blackpool pensioner to be unable to board the bus to get to Tesco to do their weekly shop as it's full of tourists travelling on ENCTS passes?

 

[graham11]

I have personaly never seen a bus in Blackpool so full of tourists that a local pensioner cannot get on to go to Tesco or anywhere else.

There may be a lot of pensioner with the free bus pass coming to Blackpool but while they are there they take hotel / B&B rooms . eat in restaurants / cafes etc and drink in pubs thus helping the local economy and raising taxes.

How would the business community and the local council feel if these hundreds of thousands of pensioners stopped coming ---- it would be a disaster.

Graham

 

[pemma]

I have personaly never seen a bus in Blackpool so full of tourists that a local pensioner cannot get on to go to Tesco or anywhere else.

There may be a lot of pensioner with the free bus pass coming to Blackpool but while they are there they take hotel / B&B rooms . eat in restaurants / cafes etc and drink in pubs thus helping the local economy and raising taxes.

How would the business community and the local council feel if these hundreds of thousands of pensioners stopped coming ---- it would be a disaster.

Graham

If the pensioners would have gone there anyway but are travelling for free instead of buying a day ticket then what benefits do they bring to Blackpool? The introduction of ENCTS isn't what resulted in large number of pensioners visiting Blackpool, that had been happening since well before I was born.

The question is really how many (if any) additional pensioners are going to Blackpool as a result of ENCTS and how much are those additional pensioners putting in to the local economy? Also has the introduction of ENCTS in any way contributed to the bus service cutbacks?

I understand Catch 22 Buses are making a final final appeal against a decision to revoke their operating licence and they are really the operator who have kept a number of services going despite council funding cuts for bus services and if they are banned from operating services, that'll likely be the end of a few routes.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The use of bus passes when on holiday is what concerns a number of councils and operators. For instance, Blackpool council feel the ENCTS scheme is more of a drain on them than other councils as they get a higher number of pensioners visiting on holiday/day trips. While how quickly a band of rain moves through can make the difference between there being a few local pensioners using a bus for their shopping trip, or a large number of pensioners.

You're probably well aware Cheshire East council don't seem to see providing bus services to rural tourist attractions as something which is needed.

My contention is that the Isle of Wight is most certainly an area of island status of small size that recognises the amount of money brought into the island by visiting holidaymakers in hotel accommodation costs where use of the local bus services is seen preferable to countless holidaymakers cars on the roads of the island in addition to those belonging to the residents of the island. You will have noted my comment stating the Isle of Wight was the ONLY holiday area that has seen use of our ENCTS passes.

I am as well aware as you are concerning the views of Cheshire East Council.