Is Pensioner free travel forcing up prices?

[pemma]

My contention is that the Isle of Wight is most certainly an area of island status of small size that recognises the amount of money brought into the island by visiting holidaymakers in hotel accommodation costs where use of the local bus services is seen preferable to countless holidaymakers cars on the roads of the island in addition to those belonging to the residents of the island. You will have noted my comment stating the Isle of Wight was the ONLY holiday area that has seen use of our ENCTS passes.

In Gibraltar (another area they don't want lots of tourists using hire cars) any tourist of any age can buy an all-day bus ticket for something like £1.50. Is that not an adequate solution for getting visitors to use buses?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

In Gibraltar (another area they don't want lots of tourists using hire cars) any tourist of any age can buy an all-day bus ticket for something like £1.50. Is that not an adequate solution for getting visitors to use buses?

Gibraltar, by its very location so far from Britain and the Spanish scenario that so exists, is in no way comparable to the island of the Isle of Wight, that is just a very short sea crossing from the British mainland and easily accessible to holiday visitors from the mainland who might see a day trip there as just part of a main holiday that is based on the mainland.

Our holiday stay on the Isle of Wight was usually for a 7 to 10 day time period, always based at Sandown. We found the services of Southern Vectis excellent for sightseeing en route to places of interest, such as Osborne House, Cowes, Alum Bay, etc.

 

[AM9]

I'm too young to get an ENCTS pass so when I've been to Blackpool I've paid for public transport. Are you suggesting I should be offered free travel as well as I benefit the local economy?

No, because you don't yet qualify for an ENCTS pass, - but you will be fully entitled to do so when you reach the appropriate age. I would suggest though that the ENCTS demographic probably form a significant part of those likely to visit Blackpool*. Note, other 'traditional' seaside resorts are available. Apart from stags/hens, I see their current offer as more of interest to senior citizens.

Are you also suggesting that it's fair for a Blackpool pensioner to be unable to board the bus to get to Tesco to do their weekly shop as it's full of tourists travelling on ENCTS passes?

It is up to the bus operator to provide sufficient capacity on the services it chooses to run. What would you suggest, a 'Blackpool residents first' scheme at every bus stop queue?

 

[AM9]

If the pensioners would have gone there anyway but are travelling for free instead of buying a day ticket then what benefits do they bring to Blackpool? The introduction of ENCTS isn't what resulted in large number of pensioners visiting Blackpool, that had been happening since well before I was born.

Your assertion may not be correct in 2017. Blackpool, like so many other traditional seaside resorts has suffered as the cost of foreign holidays has fallen, those who aren't prepared to fly or travel for many hours (mainly older holidaymakers) have become their main source of business.

The question is really how many (if any) additional pensioners are going to Blackpool as a result of ENCTS and how much are those additional pensioners putting in to the local economy? ...

That's something that only the local chamber of commerce could really comment on, but I would estimate it to be more per-capita than younger families.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

It is up to the bus operator to provide sufficient capacity on the services it chooses to run. What would you suggest, a 'Blackpool residents first' scheme at every bus stop queue?

Why not? years ago at busy times many journeys in large towns and cities carried a note that priority would be given to season ticket holders first...

On a more serious note though.... is there any correlation between how "touristy" a council area is and problems with the funding of the concessionary fares scheme?

It IS an anomaly of the system that it is the responsibility of the council whose area you board the bus in rather than the issuing authority to make payment...

Surely in the technology is available for the system to be changed so that councils could bill each other?

eg. Pass holder lives in Norfolk and goes on holiday in Cornwall... whilst on holiday uses 2 buses a day for a week..

Cornwall pays operator according to the machine data... and then extracts that data to bill Norfolk for services provided on their behalf... I'm sure some similar arrangement exists for other cross border services such as schools provision?

 

[pemma]

Gibraltar, by its very location so far from Britain and the Spanish scenario that so exists, is in no way comparable to the island of the Isle of Wight, that is just a very short sea crossing from the British mainland and easily accessible to holiday visitors from the mainland who might see a day trip there as just part of a main holiday that is based on the mainland.

Our holiday stay on the Isle of Wight was usually for a 7 to 10 day time period, always based at Sandown. We found the services of Southern Vectis excellent for sightseeing en route to places of interest, such as Osborne House, Cowes, Alum Bay, etc.

I was meaning why wouldn't the same scheme which works in Gibraltar work closer to home i.e. £1.50 for any tourist to buy a day ticket for local buses in a small area whether they are 18 or 98.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

I was meaning why wouldn't the same scheme which works in Gibraltar work closer to home i.e. £1.50 for any tourist to buy a day ticket for local buses in a small area whether they are 18 or 98.

The problem with that proposal is it presupposes there are no day tickets available already... if you are proposing that tourists pay £1.50 for a day ticket then in most areas the tourists (many of whom are of working age) would be subsidised by the locals who would be paying much more!

 

[pemma]

No, because you don't yet qualify for an ENCTS pass,

So your argument has no logic to it then. If you think free bus travel for one group boosts local tourism then surely it's a scheme which needs to be expanded to more groups of people to boost tourism further.

I would suggest though that the ENCTS demographic probably form a significant part of those likely to visit Blackpool*. Note, other 'traditional' seaside resorts are available. Apart from stags/hens, I see their current offer as more of interest to senior citizens.

From my experience Blackpool attracts all ages and I'd say parents with children are the group with the highest visitor numbers in the peak season.

It is up to the bus operator to provide sufficient capacity on the services it chooses to run. What would you suggest, a 'Blackpool residents first' scheme at every bus stop queue?

But what if you have a couple of hundred pensioners staying in a hotel one day because it's drizzly and then the next day it's sunny and they all come out?

 

[ivanhoe]

So your argument has no logic to it then. If you think free bus travel for one group boosts local tourism then surely it's a scheme which needs to be expanded to more groups of people to boost tourism further.



From my experience Blackpool attracts all ages and I'd say parents with children are the group with the highest visitor numbers in the peak season.



But what if you have a couple of hundred pensioners staying in a hotel one day because it's drizzly and then the next day it's sunny and they all come out?

JC, is Blackpool actually complaining about alleged excessive ENCTS usage by visitors or is it just your point of view. You don't help your case by quoting a possible couple of hundred pensioners coming out of a hotel in the rain.It doesn't happen and just makes your argument rather weak

 

[AM9]

So your argument has no logic to it then. If you think free bus travel for one group boosts local tourism then surely it's a scheme which needs to be expanded to more groups of people to boost tourism further.

As I have commented elsewhere, in my view, Blackpool appeals mainly to senior citizens. I don't think that there is much of an opportunity to attract many more younger families with or without children. The wakes week crowds of decades gone by aren't there any more. Nor are the industries where they worked. The tidal flow of families is towards warmer resorts via Manchester Airport, not the Fylde Coast.

From my experience Blackpool attracts all ages and I'd say parents with children are the group with the highest visitor numbers in the peak season.

But there is no scope for development there. Senior citizens however go there all around the calendar which is much better business.

 

[Hophead]

My contention is that the Isle of Wight is most certainly an area of island status of small size that recognises the amount of money brought into the island by visiting holidaymakers in hotel accommodation costs where use of the local bus services is seen preferable to countless holidaymakers cars on the roads of the island in addition to those belonging to the residents of the island. You will have noted my comment stating the Isle of Wight was the ONLY holiday area that has seen use of our ENCTS passes.

I am as well aware as you are concerning the views of Cheshire East Council.

If you had chosen to pay cash, you may have wished you'd used your pass instead, given the £10 cost of a 24-hour Day Rover (though, admittedly, it is possible to bring the unit cost down considerably by purchasing some sort of multi-day ticket).

 

[AM9]

Why not? years ago at busy times many journeys in large towns and cities carried a note that priority would be given to season ticket holders first...

On a more serious note though.... is there any correlation between how "touristy" a council area is and problems with the funding of the concessionary fares scheme?

It IS an anomaly of the system that it is the responsibility of the council whose area you board the bus in rather than the issuing authority to make payment...

My pass is issued by Hertfordshire. The county has areas where it gives many a better quality of life. It also has places where better-off seniors can be coaxed out of their cars and onto buses. Now St Albans is a very desireable place to live, (just look at the annual reviews of best places in UK to live in) but it also has a serious problem with car pollution. With increasing focus being directed at polluting vehicles waiting in traffic queues, removing many of the cars by offering easy* local travel may well soon be seen as an environmental improvement for all worth paying for.

* 'easy' as in just board and show a pass. The fact that there is no fare to pay makes the better environmental option an easy choice. These pass holders are travelling around when everybody else is at work.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

My pass is issued by Hertfordshire. The county has areas where it gives many a better quality of life. It also has places where better-off seniors can be coaxed out of their cars and onto buses. Now St Albans is a very desireable place to live, (just look at the annual reviews of best places in UK to live in) but it also has a serious problem with car pollution. With increasing focus being directed at polluting vehicles waiting in traffic queues, removing many of the cars by offering easy* local travel may well soon be seen as an environmental improvement for all worth paying for.

* 'easy' as in just board and show a pass. The fact that there is no fare to pay makes the better environmental option an easy choice. These pass holders are travelling around when everybody else is at work.

can you explain what you are trying to argue? My post was in response to someone querying whether you could have a "locals first" priority system and pointing out the anomaly that the issuing authority isn't responsible for paying for their residents using the pass in other council areas... eg your pass is issued by Hertfordshire... but conceivably you might never use your pass in Herts.... only when you holiday in Cornwall... is it not a strange situation that Cornwall is then liable to pay for a service provided by Hertfordshire council?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

My post was in response to someone querying whether you could have a "locals first" priority system and pointing out the anomaly that the issuing authority isn't responsible for paying for their residents using the pass in other council areas... eg your pass is issued by Hertfordshire... but conceivably you might never use your pass in Herts.... only when you holiday in Cornwall... is it not a strange situation that Cornwall is then liable to pay for a service provided by Hertfordshire council?

Is it not the case than an ENCTS pass gives travel concessions all over England, rather than just in the issuing area of the pass?

 

[AM9]

can you explain what you are trying to argue? My post was in response to someone querying whether you could have a "locals first" priority system and pointing out the anomaly that the issuing authority isn't responsible for paying for their residents using the pass in other council areas... eg your pass is issued by Hertfordshire... but conceivably you might never use your pass in Herts.... only when you holiday in Cornwall... is it not a strange situation that Cornwall is then liable to pay for a service provided by Hertfordshire council?

When I used my pass in Cornwall, it was because I was on holiday there. Therefore, Cornwall businesses were benefitting from me being there. Tourism is a major industry in Cornwall and ENCTS has become part of the costs/benefits to the region. Without the facility of trouble-free bus travel, I may have gone to Scotland or Wales for a break. The cost of ENCTS travel is part of the overall equation of supporting senior travellers and indirectly supporting local business/employment.
A 'locals first' is just another obstruction that would confuse and add cost to the service. The introduction of ENCTS was not intended to create second class passengers who deferred to those who might live in a different county, nor would doing so improve anything, (even for St Albans residents where there are a considerable number of tourists).

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

When I used my pass in Cornwall, it was because I was on holiday there. Therefore, Cornwall businesses were benefitting from me being there. Tourism is a major industry in Cornwall and ENCTS has become part of the costs/benefits to the region. Without the facility of trouble-free bus travel, I may have gone to Scotland or Wales for a break. The cost of ENCTS travel is part of the overall equation of supporting senior travellers and indirectly supporting local business/employment.
A 'locals first' is just another obstruction that would confuse and add cost to the service. The introduction of ENCTS was not intended to create second class passengers who deferred to those who might live in a different county, nor would doing so improve anything, (even for St Albans residents where there are a considerable number of tourists).

ah... but as I argued in a previous post... the technology is there so that the issuing authority is billed for the use rather than the authority where the pass is used... it is my contention that the major problems with funding comes in the "touristy" areas where a large number of "foreigners" are using their passes... I'm not saying to deny people nationwide travel.. rather that the authority that you reside in be responsible for funding your use of the service... as I said you may live in Hertfordshire and never use your pass whilst at home... and yet always use it when on holiday in Cornwall (or anywhere else for that matter)... why should the council tax payers of another county be responsible? much the same as many councils have cross border agreements with school provision so that pupils can attend their NEAREST school regardless of political boundaries.... BUT in that instance the councils bill each other for services provided.... why can the same not be done for bus pass provision?

 

[PeterC]

why can the same not be done for bus pass provision?

How much would the additional layer of bureaucracy cost?

Also I can't see "inland" councils being too happy about cross border charging as they would have no control over the amount reimbursed.

 

[Dai Corner]

Are ENCTS reimbursements paid out of the same budget as subsidies for tendered services?

 

[AM9]

How much would the additional layer of bureaucracy cost?

Also I can't see "inland" councils being too happy about cross border charging as they would have no control over the amount reimbursed.

It's all in the 'too difficult' drawer and the net benefit would be minimal, (as viewed by the national government, - particularly in vote terms). Localities where there is an influx of 'freeloading' visitors should build their budgets, bus services and marketing strategies around the actual conditions, not just complain.
Some towns with decent park and ride facilities seem to have recently started charging for the parking element as well as the rides between the remote car park and the centre of the town. This means that everybody pays something in addition to the money that they spend in the town. There are many ways like this that towns can mitigate the costs of carrying ENCTS passengers.

 

[pemma]

JC, is Blackpool actually complaining about alleged excessive ENCTS usage by visitors or is it just your point of view.

Blackpool was one of the councils who said they would be shortchanged by ENCTS when it replaced the local free bus travel scheme.

You don't help your case by quoting a possible couple of hundred pensioners coming out of a hotel in the rain.It doesn't happen and just makes your argument rather weak

Potentially there could be a lot of pensioners staying in Blackpool who are then more likely to get out and about when the sun comes out which could then change what capacity buses are ideally needed on different days. However, if you're saying there aren't ever a couple of hundred pensioners staying in Blackpool then it suggests ENCTS isn't doing anything to boost tourism in Blackpool and maybe it means the pensioners who go there would have gone to Blackpool anyway?

 

[pemma]

The problem with that proposal is it presupposes there are no day tickets available already... if you are proposing that tourists pay £1.50 for a day ticket then in most areas the tourists (many of whom are of working age) would be subsidised by the locals who would be paying much more!

The way around that is probably to restrict the tourist ticket to off-peak journeys on routes most likely to be used by tourists.

 

[pemma]

As I have commented elsewhere, in my view, Blackpool appeals mainly to senior citizens. I don't think that there is much of an opportunity to attract many more younger families with or without children. The wakes week crowds of decades gone by aren't there any more. Nor are the industries where they worked. The tidal flow of families is towards warmer resorts via Manchester Airport, not the Fylde Coast.

But there is no scope for development there. Senior citizens however go there all around the calendar which is much better business.

It's interesting you keep going on about pensioners being the main group of tourists in Blackpool, despite most of the coach trips aimed at pensioners going to Lytham St Annes rather than Blackpool.

While the overall total of visits is roughly in line with 2015, more than half of visits included an overnight stay, up from 36 per cent last year and the highest proportion of overnight stays since 2011.

...

Visitors surveyed cited the town’s coastal location and the Pleasure Beach as their two top reasons for visiting the resort in spring.

.....

One member is already full for the whole of the Illuminations, and we have had people saying the phone has not stopped.


Read more at: http://www.blackpoolgazette.co.uk/news/tourism-boost-as-visitor-numbers-are-on-the-rise-1-7982708

I imagine the Pleasure Beach is the last place many pensioners would go unless they are there with younger family members.

A hotel being fully booked from the end of August to November by June is quite impressive and shows how important the autumnal illuminations are to Blackpool and that it's not just a beach resort where Spain could be seen as a better alternative due to the difference between Lancashire and Spanish weather.

 

[pemma]

When I used my pass in Cornwall, it was because I was on holiday there. Therefore, Cornwall businesses were benefitting from me being there. Tourism is a major industry in Cornwall and ENCTS has become part of the costs/benefits to the region. Without the facility of trouble-free bus travel, I may have gone to Scotland or Wales for a break. The cost of ENCTS travel is part of the overall equation of supporting senior travellers and indirectly supporting local business/employment.

So if the hotel you had stayed at in Cornwall had costed £5pppn more, would you have gone to Scotland or Wales instead?

If not then wouldn't an adequate solution be a £5 day ticket for all bus operators in the area?

Or alternatively a £5pppn tax on hotel stays and as a result of the tax you get given all day bus tickets for your stay without paying any extra? (I believe the Swiss have similar schemes to get tourists to use public transport.)

 

[pemma]

Are ENCTS reimbursements paid out of the same budget as subsidies for tendered services?

Both come out of the local council's budget but different pots.

Cheshire West & Chester had an infamous example where an operator chose to run a service commercially meaning the subsided one was withdrawn. However, most people aged 18-60 chose not to part with an extra £1 each way and walked instead, which led to the bus mainly be using by pass holders and the council paying the operator more for the commercial service than they paid the old operator for the subsided service!

 

[Tetchytyke]

As I have commented elsewhere, in my view, Blackpool appeals mainly to senior citizens. I don't think that there is much of an opportunity to attract many more younger families with or without children.

Yeah, Blackpool Pleasure Beach is an attraction just for the oldies. Who'd want to take their kids to ride on the Big Dipper? The Big One is, on the other hand, a cracking ride for granny.

:roll:

My pass is issued by Hertfordshire. The county has areas where it gives many a better quality of life. It also has places where better-off seniors can be coaxed out of their cars and onto buses.

And it has many, many, many more areas where there are no longer any bus services because Hertfordshire CC has no money to subsidise them, but they cannot survive commercially. I lived in Hemel Hempstead, a far less leafy destination than St Albans, and the services in the town have, literally, been decimated in recent years. There are big chunks of the town where absolutely no buses run anymore, because there isn't the money for it.

As for seniors being coaxed out of their cars, have you tried parking in St Albans on a Saturday afternoon?

Are ENCTS reimbursements paid out of the same budget as subsidies for tendered services?

It depends what you mean by "the same budget".

Councils have two main funding streams: council tax and the formula grant. Some statutory services may receive additional grants, but not always. Out of these two main funding steams they have to pay for everything.

ENCTS reimbursements used to be funded partly by the formula grant and partly by a specific DfT grant. The DfT grant has been withdrawn, meaning that ENCTS reimbursement funding from central government is now just within the formula grant, which has been cut repeatedly in recent years due to austerity government policies. Subsidies for public transport also comes out of these two funding streams, as does funding for libraries, swimming pools, a big chunk of social care, etc etc.

It is illegal for a council officer to set a deficit budget. This was a law brought in by Thatcher in response to the poll tax strikes of the mid 1980s. Therefore the council can only spend what they receive in income and not a penny more.

ENCTS is a compulsory duty: the council must reimburse bus operators, and if the level is set too low, the operators can appeal to the government. Subsidies for public transport are not compulsory: councils must merely consider provision.

So, in a time of significant budget cuts, we have ENCTS reimbursement which is compulsory and subsidies to bus services which are not. We have a limited budget. It's not hard to see how one impacts upon the other.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Yeah, Blackpool Pleasure Beach is an attraction just for the oldies. Who'd want to take their kids to ride on the Big Dipper? The Big One is, on the other hand, a cracking ride for granny.

:roll:



And it has many, many, many more areas where there are no longer any bus services because Hertfordshire CC has no money to subsidise them, but they cannot survive commercially. I lived in Hemel Hempstead, a far less leafy destination than St Albans, and the services in the town have, literally, been decimated in recent years. There are big chunks of the town where absolutely no buses run anymore, because there isn't the money for it.

As for seniors being coaxed out of their cars, have you tried parking in St Albans on a Saturday afternoon?



It depends what you mean by "the same budget".

Councils have two main funding streams: council tax and the formula grant. Some statutory services may receive additional grants, but not always. Out of these two main funding steams they have to pay for everything.

ENCTS reimbursements used to be funded partly by the formula grant and partly by a specific DfT grant. The DfT grant has been withdrawn, meaning that ENCTS reimbursement funding from central government is now just within the formula grant, which has been cut repeatedly in recent years due to austerity government policies. Subsidies for public transport also comes out of these two funding streams, as does funding for libraries, swimming pools, a big chunk of social care, etc etc.

It is illegal for a council officer to set a deficit budget. This was a law brought in by Thatcher in response to the poll tax strikes of the mid 1980s. Therefore the council can only spend what they receive in income and not a penny more.

ENCTS is a compulsory duty: the council must reimburse bus operators, and if the level is set too low, the operators can appeal to the government. Subsidies for public transport are not compulsory: councils must merely consider provision.

So, in a time of significant budget cuts, we have ENCTS reimbursement which is compulsory and subsidies to bus services which are not. We have a limited budget. It's not hard to see how one impacts upon the other.

Agree with that as an analysis.

One small correction. The legislation on setting legal budgets comes from the rate capping legislation of the mid 80s. Poll tax was a few years later.

 

[pemma]

Ignore. Wrong thread.

 

[graham11]

It has been mentioned on here of giving locals priority over visitors.

Not sure how that would work. !

The bus pulls up at a bus stop with a queue of people waiting to board and the bus fills up . But the last person to get on and present their pass is a local.
Is the driver meant to throw one of the previous passengers off ?

Can`t work.

Graham

 

[pemma]

The bus pulls up at a bus stop with a queue of people waiting to board and the bus fills up . But the last person to get on and present their pass is a local.
Is the driver meant to throw one of the previous passengers off ?

Can't work.

So you're envisaging only pass holders travelling on a bus? The last passenger in the queue may be a local commuter in possession of a weekly ticket.

If airlines can manage two queues for boarding a plane then surely it's not a case of "can't work" but a case of it'll need time and money to be made to work.

 

[graham11]

So the bus will have to have two doors , one for locals and one for visitors ?

Perhaps the driver can get out , check who is who and sort them out in order and arrange who gets on first.

Still can`t see it working .


Graham