Is "Recovery Time" an unfair waste of a passenger's lifetime?

[Bletchleyite]

I think there is a fundamental misunderstanding of the situation at play here. That situation is a result of sqaushing two services together to offer another service to Scotland.

True; the intention of that squashing together is to make things better for those making intermediate journeys, which it does, very well. It also makes better use of rolling stock than the former situation. It was an absolute masterstroke - to me, the best decision VT made during their tenure in timetabling terms (OK, maybe I'd give their decision to go all-day clockface, near enough, more credence ).

If Advances are cheaper, well, that's why they're cheaper

The reason for it, though, is that the paths don't line up.

While I dont disagree SBB run substantially fewer trains under a very different operating framework. Is there a swiss example of the mixed traffic chaos of wcml south?

Is there one anywhere else in the world? That said, the "fixed" LNR timetable does include "dropping back" a path at New St to allow for enough slack to make the Liverpool through services punctual, and some wait at Northampton for a while.

SBB's operating model of very long trains on a half hourly base would work very well in other parts of the UK, though, most notably the web-like network in the North where connections are vastly more important than the South East as there's not one obvious big destination to send everything to.

 

[Statto]

Wolverhampton-Birmingham-Coventry is one of the busiest lines outside London & the South East, & most of it double track, if the xx45 from Wolves only had a couple of minutes it would interfere with other paths, think theres a LNWR Liverpool-Birmingham-Euston service, then an TfW service, & WMT service that all overtake at Wolverhampton, plus it departed at XX45 off peak when it used to run Wolverhampton-Euston only so keeps that simple, then it has a few minutes at Birmingham so it can be pathed at every 20 minutes with the other Avanti WC Birmingham-Euston services to keep a clockface timetable.

It's not as simplistic at looking at the timetable seeing the amount of time trains wait at platforms, a lot of other factors are involved too.

 

[cactustwirly]

I think there is a fundamental misunderstanding of the situation at play here. That situation is a result of sqaushing two services together to offer another service to Scotland.

You could always pay more for the quicker train via the trent valley



While I dont disagree SBB run substantially fewer trains under a very different operating framework. Is there a swiss example of the mixed traffic chaos of wcml south?

Not Swiss, but I reckon the closest continental railway is probably the Rhein-Ruhr railway, from Düsseldorf to Dortmund. I wouldn't say the punctuality of IC/ICE services on that line is amazing however.

 

[Andy Pacer]

My very basic opinion of this is that I'd rather see a little bit of slack (or "recovery time") in the timetable if it means punctuality is improved.

 

[BigB]

The premise here is just fundamentally wrong.
If passengers have boarded a train to arrive at a certain destination at a certain time, and it does, then sitting awaiting its path to ensure that both it and other trains arrive on time is not wasting anyone's time.
I've no issue at all with waiting for departure time, as my main focus is getting to the station I am travelling to on time.
I can't see how this would ever be worth the vast number crunching to work out a tighter timetable that would quickly become unstable if any delays were incurred along the way.

 

[306024]

Arguably some of the posts in this thread have been an unfair waste of my lifetime reading them

But seriously all the evidence is that a reliable punctual timetable drives up passenger satisfaction. There have been some in the industry that have sought to drive down costs (which in principle isn’t a bad idea), but when their cost driven timetable has been too tight to operate reliably it generally hasn’t lasted long.

Yes timetable production is very complex, capacity at stations is just as important as finding the optimum path for one service, never mind thousands all criss crossing each other around the country. And that’s before adding traction and traincrew diagramming which all has a bearing.

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

If I've understood it correctly, the xx:45 departures from Wolverhampton to London Euston call at Sandwell & Dudley before Birmingham New Street which is another handy reason for the longer wait at Wolverhampton.

Plus with the Euston-bound Avanti West Coast trains being mostly 9, 10 and 11 coaches, the longer wait gives more time for the train to be dispatched too.

 

[Taunton]

Last time I did Genève - Lausanne, the train sat at the latter for quarter of an hour while a defective coach was locked out. Needless to say, we arrived in Sion on time, as all the subsequent station calls were done in 1 minute rather than the booked 3-4.

Now that sort of experience is one that I can often come up with, only to then get shot down by all the operators here who say its quite impractical!

Regarding Euston trains via Birmingham, the key issue for me, actually using this line (I wonder how many writing above do) is unreliability of the service coming south from Scotland beyond the recovery time allowance means a train missing in the Birmingham to London service, and then gross overcrowding on the one following. Everyone boarding at Birmingham International all stood all the way to London. Twice.

It seems there is no ability to have a standby train anywhere in the Midlands to cover the train from Scotland not turning up.

 

[Bald Rick]

Arguably some of the posts in this thread have been an unfair waste of my lifetime reading them

Post of the month so far

It seems there is no ability to have a standby train anywhere in the Midlands to cover the train from Scotland not turning up.

No spare trains.

 

[Ianno87]

My very basic opinion of this is that I'd rather see a little bit of slack (or "recovery time") in the timetable if it means punctuality is improved.

Your opinion is aligned with international railway standards and good practice.

 

[hexagon789]

Throughout the Network, there's little bits of recovery time padded through the timetables.

The one I probably notice most often, as I mentioned in the XC thread, is the 15 minutes sat at Wolverhampton on the Edinburgh-Birmingham-Euston services. It comes immediately after the longish wait at Crewe.

Is it fair to take those 15 minutes from an individual just for the pretence of a reliable timetable on those odd occasions when there is a problem?

Definitely not, you have to look at those services BR once timetabled with little or no recovery margins like the Scottish Pullmans for example. 3h59 and lucky to manage that 30% of the time.

On average they were 15 mins late, so they extended the schedules to 4h15. They did try the 3h59 schedules again as did GNER but they were never very reliable at all.

Surely the greater deception to the passenger is not artificially inflated schedules but schedules which proclaim an arrival at a time which is rarely achieved?

 

[I13]

It seems there is no ability to have a standby train anywhere in the Midlands to cover the train from Scotland not turning up

On one at least one occasion at New Street, the service from Scotland (XX10 departure) was about 15-20m late, so the stock that would have been used to form the XX30 to Euston (which arrives at 45 past so could cope with a 25m turnaround) instead became the XX10 with the Scotland running in the path of the XX30. Not sure how common this is, though - I might only have seen it once.

 

[Ianno87]

On one at least one occasion at New Street, the service from Scotland (XX10 departure) was about 15-20m late, so the stock that would have been used to form the XX30 to Euston (which arrives at 45 past so could cope with a 25m turnaround) instead became the XX10 with the Scotland running in the path of the XX30. Not sure how common this is, though - I might only have seen it once.

It's tricky swapping around the fleet between diagrams like that, as which depot a Pendolino ends up at that might matters (e.g. trains requiring a wheel lathe needs to end up at Longsight)

 

[Jamesrob637]

The new-ish TGV from Paris-Montparnasse to Bordeaux is another example of theoretically (and relatively often in practice too) being achievable in under two hours non-stop however SNCF add "contingency" time of 5 minutes to make everything more punctual.

 

[The Planner]

It seems there is no ability to have a standby train anywhere in the Midlands to cover the train from Scotland not turning up.

No spare trains.

It is sort of done with the Shrewsbury services, but they are worked by Voyagers that join and split so you can do it.

 

[Bald Rick]

It is sort of done with the Shrewsbury services, but they are worked by Voyagers that join and split so you can do it.

Indeed, hence the 1B68 / 1Z68 pairing.

When I said ‘no spare trains’, what I meant was ‘no spare trains that can reliably hang around Oxley all day on the off chance that a Scotland via Brum train is more than half an hour late”.

 

[swt_passenger]

Indeed, hence the 1B68 / 1Z68 pairing.

When I said ‘no spare trains’, what I meant was ‘no spare trains that can reliably hang around Oxley all day on the off chance that a Scotland via Brum train is more than half an hour late”.

Even if it existed, wouldn’t there be an immediate request to run it to somewhere such as Shrewsbury, Wrexham, Blackpool?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Indeed, hence the 1B68 / 1Z68 pairing.

When I said ‘no spare trains’, what I meant was ‘no spare trains that can reliably hang around Oxley all day on the off chance that a Scotland via Brum train is more than half an hour late”.

It is of note that the Swiss do consider exactly this to be worth doing, though.

 

[Andy Pacer]

It's tricky swapping around the fleet between diagrams like that, as which depot a Pendolino ends up at that might matters (e.g. trains requiring a wheel lathe needs to end up at Longsight)

Good point. I expect there are some instances when it can (and probably does) happen but others when not. And in my experience of transport operations it is probably not possible on the journeys that may often be delayed!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Do XC still keep a spare Voyager at New St? They did for a fairly long time.

 

[Andy Pacer]

Do XC still keep a spare Voyager at New St? They did for a fairly long time.

I think they still have the hot spare. I seem to recall they also used to have a 170 through the day (I think it went on a Leicester in the evening peak).

 

[Ianno87]

The new-ish TGV from Paris-Montparnasse to Bordeaux is another example of theoretically (and relatively often in practice too) being achievable in under two hours non-stop however SNCF add "contingency" time of 5 minutes to make everything more punctual.

5% recovery is standard on all high speed lines.

Quite reasonable as:
-Actually constently maintaing a high speed train at exactly line speed is very hard with the continuous succession of gradients
-Any slight drop in speed can take a considerable distance to recover

Do XC still keep a spare Voyager at New St? They did for a fairly long time.

Yes.

 

[221129]

I think they still have the hot spare. I seem to recall they also used to have a 170 through the day (I think it went on a Leicester in the evening peak).

There is booked to be a Spare Voyager and a Spare 170 at New St but often gets allocated before leaving CZ!

 

[Bald Rick]

It is of note that the Swiss do consider exactly this to be worth doing, though.

At Oxley?

My (unsaid) point was that you can’t have hot spares everywhere. For Avanti, Oxley is not a good place to have one, because there’s is only an hourly service there, and getting to Birmingham is tricky because the line is so busy. The best place is of course Euston, and failing that Willesden CS.

 

[Taunton]

At Oxley?

My (unsaid) point was that you can’t have hot spares everywhere. For Avanti, Oxley is not a good place to have one, because there’s is only an hourly service there, and getting to Birmingham is tricky because the line is so busy. The best place is of course Euston, and failing that Willesden CS.

Nobody asked for them to be "everywhere". Even if it was at Crewe, that, like Oxley, is where the train from Scotland actually passes, so no additional path would be required.

I suppose I still remember, to the dismay of others here, the 2x27 Push-Pull on Edinburgh-Glasgow. Four sets in all day use, a fifth stood up at Cowlairs all day, locos attached, ready to roll on the siding nearest the running lines, and would get sent down to Queen Street to slot in as and when required.

 

[30907]

I suppose I still remember, to the dismay of others here, the 2x27 Push-Pull on Edinburgh-Glasgow. Four sets in all day use, a fifth stood up at Cowlairs all day, locos attached, ready to roll on the siding nearest the running lines, and would get sent down to Queen Street to slot in as and when required.

I am not dismayed (why do I have a sundayschool song on the brain?), but was there a maintenance spare as well, giving 6 sets for 4 diagrams aka 67% availability? Or did the Cowlairs set do a peak trip?

 

[Bald Rick]

Nobody asked for them to be "everywhere". Even if it was at Crewe, that, like Oxley, is where the train from Scotland actually passes, so no additional path would be required.

I suppose I still remember, to the dismay of others here, the 2x27 Push-Pull on Edinburgh-Glasgow. Four sets in all day use, a fifth stood up at Cowlairs all day, locos attached, ready to roll on the siding nearest the running lines, and would get sent down to Queen Street to slot in as and when required.

Ok, but my point is that if you have a hot spare, or for that matter a rescue loco, it’s best to have it where most of your trains operate. Hence Euston for the hot spare (there’s effectively one at Wembley CS AIUI) and Rugby (where the T bird used to be, if not now).

 

[6Gman]

Nobody asked for them to be "everywhere". Even if it was at Crewe, that, like Oxley, is where the train from Scotland actually passes, so no additional path would be required.

You would also need a traincrew to work such a service.

Going back to the OP if you really, really want to get to New Street a few minutes quicker then just do the "Wolverhampton Shuffle" as it is known in our household.

If the Scottish train is on time jump off, over the bridge, and catch the Shrewsbury 170.

On a journey from Scotland or Lancashire most people prefer to stay where they are for the sake of a few minutes.

 

[Taunton]

Well even if it followed the stopper down from Oxley ecs because it was needed to stand in for the one in three starting at New Street, it wouldn't be the end of the universe. After all, the northbound Scottish services seem to get sent off following the stopper pretty often along here (he said from bitter experience ...).

 

[Ianno87]

You would also need a traincrew to work such a service.

And if you're paying all day, every day for that, it may as well be out in normal service, rather than sitting around 95% of the time "just in case".