Is the phrase "whiter than white" racist?

[Teflon Lettuce]

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.

sorry, hit the post reply button by mistake before completing the post... have done so now so you hopefully see the point I'm making

 

[lyndhurst25]

It's the 'But he isn't complaining' part. Why should I, a black man, complain about my arse not being white - the implication is that there's something wrong/inferior about it.

My interpretation is that the implication is the exact opposite. Kid wrongly complains that something isn't fair. The riposte is that neither is a black man's bottom and that he isn't complaining about that. It's a play on the two meanings of the word "fair" and the implication is that that black man has nothing to complain about because why should he? There's nothing wrong with the colour of his bottom. What colour should a black man's bottom be other than black? Of course he's not complaining and so shouldn't the kid.

It's strange how different people interpret things differently and can sometimes take offence.

Another example was when David Jason got criticised for making a "racist" joke, something along the lines of "What do you call an Indian cloakroom attendant? Mahatma Coat". To me that's just an innocent play on language. Ask any British person to name a famous Indian and most would say Mahatma Ghandi. Mahatma is an unusual name to English-speaking ears and Mahatma Coat sounds like "My hat, my coat", something you'd say to a cloakroom attendant. I can't see a an ounce of racism in the joke but some people took offence. If "John Smith" sounds like some phrase in the Hindi language then I'd be happy for Indian comedians to make jokes about it all day long and I wouldn't be offended at all.

It's all about context and if no offence is meant, then none should be taken.

 

[najaB]

From these dictionary definitions it can be clearly seen that offering someone a particular food because others of their racial/ cultural group have a tendency to like those foods is not racist in the slightest.

I'm sorry, but making the assumption that someone likes something because of their race IS racist. In this particular case, I'm not American so that cultural stereotype doesn't fit in the slightest.

 

[najaB]

It's a play on the two meanings of the word "fair" and the implication is that that black man has nothing to complain about because why should he? There's nothing wrong with the colour of his bottom.

Which, again, means that someone thinks that they should have a reason to complain.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

I'm sorry, but making the assumption that someone likes something because of their race IS racist. In this particular case, I'm not American so that cultural stereotype doesn't fit in the slightest.

but where in doing so are they showing...

1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human racial groups determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to dominate others or that a particular racial group is inferior to the others. or
   
2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination. or
   
3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.

After all, you're saying that the same person would be racist for offering me a pot of tea because I've got an English accent.. and all Americans know us Brits drink nothing but tea.... it's a nonsense... they're not being racist, they're making a judgement based on EXPERIENCE...

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Which, again, means that someone thinks that they should have a reason to complain.

no not at all. the child thinks something is unfair and says that that something is unfair.

the reply is nor's a black man's bum.....

there are 2 meanings to the word fair... fair as in fairplay and fair as in fair skin tone. There is no suggestion anywhere that a black man having a black bum is unfair...none whatsoever... in fact quite the opposite... it is obvious that it is fair for a black man to have a black bum and unfair for him to have a fair one... it's purely a play on the 2 meanings of the word "fair" in fact it has nothing whatsoever to do with a black man's bum! it's literally a way of making a child stop whining, and think....believe it or not my Dad used to say it to me when I was a kid and it wasn't until I was 35 that it finally twigged why a black man's bum was so unfair.... quite honestly I'd never really ever given it any thought... there was that little malice in the saying.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm sorry, but making the assumption that someone likes something because of their race IS racist. In this particular case, I'm not American so that cultural stereotype doesn't fit in the slightest.

It is racist, but to me it’s no more negative than offering me a cup of tea when hearing me speak with an English accent.

 

[Geezertronic]

Having read through this thread, the phrase "whiter than white" appears to me to be a marketing slogan of Daz washing powder. There is no racism involved in that phrase at all. There again, this is probably London's Big Conversation radio station trying to provoke outrage amongst the general public.

I think that if it had been a white presenter who brought this up then the white presenter could have been branded a racist by the very people who believe the phrase is racist. The fact that Maajid brought this up kind of negates that premise.

 

[swj99]

Words alone are not racist. The context in which some words are used can sometimes infer racism, but it's difficult to be sure, due to the fact nobody is a mind reader.

Wasn't "Whiter than white !" used as a catchphrase in a washing powder commercial once upon a time ?
Nobody should be afraid of using words in case someone is worried that someone else believes it to be offensive or racist. Followed to it's natural conclusion, if this were the case, we'd run out of words and the Oxford English dictionary would have to be banned because potentially anyone could decide to feel offended by any of the words contained in it.

There are a great many examples of words which some believe to be racist but which have totally innocent uses. I can't be bothered to list them because the Scunthorpe filter is quite effective on here, but I bet most of you can think of some.

 

[NSEFAN]

but where in doing so are they showing...

1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human racial groups determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to dominate others or that a particular racial group is inferior to the others. or
   
2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination. or
   
3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.

After all, you're saying that the same person would be racist for offering me a pot of tea because I've got an English accent.. and all Americans know us Brits drink nothing but tea.... it's a nonsense... they're not being racist, they're making a judgement based on EXPERIENCE...

It is more likely that they're making a judgement based on a stereotype, which may be propped up by some experience in the form of confirmation bias.

A dictionary definition is a good starting point but it's not very useful for determining the subtleties of racism. To assume that a black chap would want to eat watermelon is based off of a stereotype, which was certainly used in racist cartoons and such in the past to mock black people. Hence to do so now, even without malice, may still be construed as racist by a stranger.

 

[Strat-tastic]

It's the 'But he isn't complaining' part. Why should I, a black man, complain about my arse not being white - the implication is that there's something wrong/inferior about it.

I'd say he would complain if there was something inferior about it, surely? But he isn't, so there isn't...

 

[Clip]

not at all... I'm a Kyke, a Yid, a Heebee, a hook nose, I'm a Red Sea pedestrian, I'm Kosher and I'm proud of it... I am fully aware of what happens if racism is allowed to flourish and I am sensitive as to how something innocently said {and meant} can be twisted by those of a racist mind... I am also fully aware that an over-zealous censorship of words and phrases in itself is a form of fascism... it is seeking to control how someone thinks and speaks.

I'm sorry if what I said offends you, but it was said with total innocence and with no malice of forethought... if you wish to read something sinister into it then I can hardly help that can I? as to why I wouldn't have said it if there had been any black people around? simple... I'm sensitive enough to not wish to offend them, though in reality I don't see anything sinister or racist in the phrase I used. I never have and never will...

You're also just some bloke on the internet who could claim all sorts of things about themselves in the vain hope of trying to claim something you were not - no one knows.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

You're also just some bloke on the internet who could claim all sorts of things about themselves in the vain hope of trying to claim something you were not - no one knows.

and you're obviously someone who has nothing sensible or of substance to add to the debate- otherwise you wouldn't make such a crass statement! You're right, you don't know... but as in all matters on a forum like this you have to accept what people tell about themselves is true... just as I have to.... of course you could be deemed as being anti-semitic in singling me out...after all you don't know whether @najaB is black as he claims... nor whether @Bromley boy 's ex-partner is also black.... and yet you don't question whether their claims are factual....I wonder why that might be........?

 

[najaB]

After all, you're saying that the same person would be racist for offering me a pot of tea because I've got an English accent.

'English' isn't a race.

 

[najaB]

It is racist, but to me it’s no more negative than offering me a cup of tea when hearing me speak with an English accent.

That's exactly the point I was making - racist thoughts/actions don't necessarily require malice aforethought. And, as above, British isn't a race.

 

[Clip]

and you're obviously someone who has nothing sensible or of substance to add to the debate- otherwise you wouldn't make such a crass statement! You're right, you don't know... but as in all matters on a forum like this you have to accept what people tell about themselves is true... just as I have to.... of course you could be deemed as being anti-semitic in singling me out...after all you don't know whether @najaB is black as he claims... nor whether @Bromley boy 's ex-partner is also black.... and yet you don't question whether their claims are factual....I wonder why that might be........?

Quite simply because i missed both of the posts stating that - But my main statement is true - this is an internet forum and everyone and anyone can claim to be black have black partners and so on and so forth - I myself in the past have also claimed that i have a muslim lady as my other half - up to people if they believe any of its true but by claiming that you are something whilst trying to defend a racist statement being said is exactly why i really only quoted you as you are the only one trying to defend the use of said statement.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

That's exactly the point I was making - racist thoughts/actions don't necessarily require malice aforethought. And, as above, British isn't a race.

Never heard of W.A.S.P as a race description? White Anglo-Saxon Protestant ie British/ British descent. So yes British is a race, albeit a sub-race of the generic "white"... just the same way that "Pakistani" can be considered a separate race, although in reality they are a sub-race of South Asian..

You have to be careful not to denigrate other people's self-description of "race" if you wish your racial identification to be respected... in fact you are coming close to being racist yourself if you don't.... after all what you are saying is "only non-white's can have a seperate racial identity and only non-whites can claim that their culture is different from those of a similar skin tone" White people, like Blacks, Orientals and South Asians are not one homogenous blob!

 

[Bletchleyite]

That's exactly the point I was making - racist thoughts/actions don't necessarily require malice aforethought. And, as above, British isn't a race.

It isn't (though Anglo-Saxon is, not that every British person is that!) However, I just don't, in the modern day, see them as any different in terms of severity. Suggesting that someone may like a given product because of how they look/sound/speak/whatever isn't strongly negative in and of itself - though I can see how it could be quite annoying! It's quite different from looking down at someone because of a particular physical attribute.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Never heard of W.A.S.P as a race description? White Anglo-Saxon Protestant ie British/ British descent. So yes British is a race, albeit a sub-race of the generic "white"... just the same way that "Pakistani" can be considered a separate race, although in reality they are a sub-race of South Asian..

Much as I agreed with you about the tea, you may have tripped yourself up there - the A.S. part of the above is "Anglo Saxon". I am not 100% Anglo Saxon (I'm 1/4 Welsh) and neither is every other British person.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Much as I agreed with you about the tea, you may have tripped yourself up there - the A.S. part of the above is "Anglo Saxon". I am not 100% Anglo Saxon (I'm 1/4 Welsh) and neither is every other British person.

yes I'm quite aware.. I myself, whilst identifying as Jewish also identify as Celt having 3 Welsh, 3 Irish and only 2 English great-grandparents...
however, my point still stands... the British are valid in seeing themselves as a different race to the French, Germans, Russians etc... our nation's collective experiences differentiate us in culture and outlook than those of other countries... therefore we are a seperate race... in the same way that a West Indian is of a different race/ culture than a Somali... or Indian is compared to a Pakistani... or for that matter Chinese/ Japanese....

If you wish to call out racism/ make accusations of racism then you have to be very careful to make sure you apply the same standards to yourself as you do to others.

 

[najaB]

It isn't (though Anglo-Saxon is, not that every British person is that!) However, I just don't, in the modern day, see them as any different in terms of severity. Suggesting that someone may like a given product because of how they look/sound/speak/whatever isn't strongly negative in and of itself - though I can see how it could be quite annoying!

We're not disagreeing. I didn't take offence to being offered watermelon (not a fan of collard greens however), the point I'm making is that racism doesn't always spring from malice intent. Someone might quite earnestly worry when they see a black person near open water and warn them against entering (the assumption being that black people don't swim well), but that black person could well be a champion swimmer.

 

[najaB]

the British are valid in seeing themselves as a different race to the French, Germans, Russians

And am I part of the 'British race'?

 

[Strat-tastic]

That's because the "Politically Correct" movement* actually HAS gone mad now!

It always has been

 

[AlterEgo]

British is not a race and never has been; it's a civic identity. Race is different to ethnic identity.

Actual racism (i.e. the inference that someone or a group of people is inferior because of their *race*) is not as common these days as the usage of the word. Much more common is discrimination on the grounds of ethnic identity, or culture, or religion.

 

[najaB]

Actual racism (i.e. the inference that someone or a group of people is inferior because of their *race*) is not as common these days as the usage of the word.

I was always taught that racism is ascribing traits or characteristics to an individual based on preconceived notions of the traits or characteristics associated with their ethnicity. So, for example, assuming that a black man will do well in long-distance running. So it doesn't necessarily mean thinking that someone is inferior (though it usually does).

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

And am I part of the 'British race'?

are you wilfully misinterpreting/ misquoting to prove some kind of point? It was quite clear from my post that I was referring to "British" in a white context, as opposed to French, German or Russian {or any other white culture for that matter} which stemmed from an example of how your experience with the watermelon could translate to a white person {Brit automatically being offered tea}...

To be honest, your refusal to accept that not all white people are the same suggest to me a touch of racism on your part... but then again only us whiteys can be racist apparently....

out of interest... would you have been as offended at being offered watermelon if it had been a black waiter that offered it to you?

 

[Up_Tilt_390]

I was always taught that racism is ascribing traits or characteristics to an individual based on preconceived notions of the traits or characteristics associated with their ethnicity. So, for example, assuming that a black man will do well in long-distance running. So it doesn't necessarily mean thinking that someone is inferior (though it usually does).

I would say that your idea is somewhat correct since it is making assumptions based on race, but it's quite funny actually, because there are certain traits you can apply to someone based on their skin colour because of genetics. Lighter skin tends to preserve Vitamin D better thanks to the evolution of living in a climate with less sunlight than our ancestors, but darker skin tends to fare better in high sunlight environments, so I don't think you would be wrong to guess a black man would be able to live in a high sunlight environment better than a white man and such. But since it still technically is ascribing traits and characteristics to someone based on skin colour, is it still racist despite being scientific? I think that's an interesting question personally.

Not every applied trait is genetic of course. If black people are actually more athletic for example, then I'd put that down more to cultural practices than genetic. Raise two people of a different race in the same conditions of living where lots of walking and running is required, I doubt skin colour will play any part of it. It's not just them two either, there is actually a posture in the third world known as the Asian Squat, Slav Squat or Third World Squat etc, and some have been lead to believe it could be a genetic thing due to the fact most white people cannot do it. However, this is most certainly cultural, because western nations (which are mostly white) use chairs and sit toilets, and so the necessary muscles tighten to the point we can't squat without raising our heels (though as a martial artist, I can do the posture), while Asian and Slavic nations use squat toilets and keep the habit.

I personally think my question raises a decent point though because as a liberal, I wouldn't usually prescribe someone a trait or characteristic just because of skin pigmentation, but if you had me guessing certain things such as who would handle high or low sunlight conditions better, then I know who I'd put my money on. But they are both still prescribing traits to someone, only in one case it's got a scientific basis, so again would that count as racism despite no malicious intent? I do think it certainly is an interesting question.

 

[Bromley boy]

are you wilfully misinterpreting/ misquoting to prove some kind of point? It was quite clear from my post that I was referring to "British" in a white context, as opposed to French, German or Russian {or any other white culture for that matter} which stemmed from an example of how your experience with the watermelon could translate to a white person {Brit automatically being offered tea}...

To be honest, your refusal to accept that not all white people are the same suggest to me a touch of racism on your part... but then again only us whiteys can be racist apparently....

out of interest... would you have been as offended at being offered watermelon if it had been a black waiter that offered it to you?

But racial identity isn’t the same as national identity.

A Brit (of any race) being offered tea because they are British is itself a stereotype.

But that’s different to a black person (who may or may not be British) being offered a watermelon because that’s what black people like.

 

[Clip]

out of interest... would you have been as offended at being offered watermelon if it had been a black waiter that offered it to you?

najaB wasnt offended at all by being offered it if you could see past the red mist that appears to have descended before your eyes

We're not disagreeing. I didn't take offence to being offered watermelon (not a fan of collard greens however), .

 

[Bromley boy]

I was always taught that racism is ascribing traits or characteristics to an individual based on preconceived notions of the traits or characteristics associated with their ethnicity. So, for example, assuming that a black man will do well in long-distance running. So it doesn't necessarily mean thinking that someone is inferior (though it usually does).

I’d agree with this.

Treating people as individuals and taking people as I find them, without ascribing any particular characteristics to them (either positive or negative) based on their ethnic origin, is my approach.