Is the railway in general top heavy with managers?

[Gems]

Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/hull-trains-redundancies.209756/

The writing has been on the wall for some time. Hull trains have been on the slide due to a terrible reliability record for over a year. They were never in a position to deal with this crisis. The railway in general is top heavy with managers. Email yesterday about Northern vacancies, everyone bar one was a management grade. A manager of no consequence are most of them. At some point this gravy train is going to smash into the buffers.

 

[PupCuff]

The writing has been on the wall for some time. Hull trains have been on the slide due to a terrible reliability record for over a year. They were never in a position to deal with this crisis. The railway in general is top heavy with managers. Email yesterday about Northern vacancies, everyone bar one was a management grade. A manager of no consequence are most of them. At some point this gravy train is going to smash into the buffers.

The problem is, it's very easy to say, there's too many managers, let's cut a few. But then what happens is either the jobs they were doing get missed, potentially leading to business or safety critical tasks not getting done, or worse still dumped on the existing management grades, and done by someone who's never done it, doesn't know why they're doing it, and does it badly because they also have thirty other things to be doing too.

There's a realistic limit to how many staff (say) a DTM can manage, likewise if - to use the example - one person is expected to manage performance (everything from investigating delays to attending high level meetings to discuss performance strategy) for the entirety of the Northern network with its varied geography then realistically it isn't going to happen. And when it's a highly regulated environment like the rail industry with a hecking heck of a lot of law requiring things to get done in specific ways it's really important that that happens.

 

[43096]

The problem is, it's very easy to say, there's too many managers, let's cut a few. But then what happens is either the jobs they were doing get missed, potentially leading to business or safety critical tasks not getting done, or worse still dumped on the existing management grades, and done by someone who's never done it, doesn't know why they're doing it, and does it badly because they also have thirty other things to be doing too.

It strikes me that people who say “there’s too many managers” normally don’t have a clue about what management do or why they are needed.

 

[Robertj21a]

It strikes me that people who say “there’s too many managers” normally don’t have a clue about what management do or why they are needed.

Quite agree. There's a lot of misunderstanding, or ignorance, concerning the role of managers in general.

 

[Ianno87]

It strikes me that people who say “there’s too many managers” normally don’t have a clue about what management do or why they are needed.

Completely.

For example a "Customer Experience Manager" might seem like a nonsense title, but actually might be focused on the little things that keep passengers happy and coming back. Fewer management grades means less time to devote to things like that, so the overall quality of the product declines.

 

[adc82140]

It strikes me that people who say “there’s too many managers” normally don’t have a clue about what management do or why they are needed.

Absolutely. It's the same in the health service. Because of public misconceptions "Hospital Managers" are a dirty word. Yet you really wouldn't want clinical staff managing your hospital.

 

[LowLevel]

Completely.

For example a "Customer Experience Manager" might seem like a nonsense title, but actually might be focused on the little things that keep passengers happy and coming back. Fewer management grades means less time to devote to things like that, so the overall quality of the product declines.

My managers have revelled in a variety of stupid job titles changing every couple of years. Customer Experience Manager, Customer Service Manager, Train Service Manager, Service Delivery Manager etc.

Every single one was non customer facing and line managed/conducted operational technical assessments on train guards.

Funnily enough each change in job title usually coincided with a pay cut/change in responsibilities.

 

[E502]

On Network Rail there are 4 managers for every 1 signaller... How could we cope without them all though!?

 

[306024]

Manager is a rather overused term. Many staff are on management contracts, without necessarily managing much more than themselves. Usually it is a ploy to remove overtime payments, as many management contracts have no such entitlement.

 

[The Planner]

On Network Rail there are 4 managers for every 1 signaller... How could we cope without them all though!?

Not sure what you are implying there, you have 4 managers or there are 4 management posts for every signaller post? That ratio will likely only increase as resignalling occurs.

 

[carriageline]

On Network Rail there are 4 managers for every 1 signaller... How could we cope without them all though!?

But there is a lot more to Network Rail than just signallers.

Put it into context, how many signalling managers are there to signallers? Seeing as every area has 2 or so senior ops managers, and then it’s 30 odd signallers to one LOM, that number is lower!

 

[Tom Quinne]

On Network Rail there are 4 managers for every 1 signaller... How could we cope without them all though!?

Not at my location ! We’re lucky our LOM is fantastic, if/when he moves on it’ll be a very bitter blow.
Problem being good managers don’t stick around as the pay is poor, and work load is huge.

 

[Llanigraham]

Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/hull-trains-redundancies.209756/

The writing has been on the wall for some time. Hull trains have been on the slide due to a terrible reliability record for over a year. They were never in a position to deal with this crisis. The railway in general is top heavy with managers. Email yesterday about Northern vacancies, everyone bar one was a management grade. A manager of no consequence are most of them. At some point this gravy train is going to smash into the buffers.

Define "manager"?
Just of the Network Rail side, for example, there are Mobile Ops Managers and Level Crossing Managers, but neither of them have a "people managerial" side to them.
I many situations it is a "grand" title only.

 

[Llanigraham]

On Network Rail there are 4 managers for every 1 signaller... How could we cope without them all though!?

Are there?
Are you including the MOMs in that list?
(See point above)

 

[2L70]

TPE used to have:
Train Service Managers (Guards managers)
Competency managers(assesors)
Driver Standards managers(assessors)
Driver Managers
Duty Despatch managers(basically Platform Supervisors)
Quality Managers(basically ride round on trains looking for stuff to pin on traincrew)

When the money was flowing they liked their management grade positions.

 

[C J Snarzell]

Like other forum members have stated the title of 'Manager' is used commonly now in none supervising jobs.

I always associate a Manager as a 'boss' who leads a team of employees and deals with the discipline and welfare matters.

However, many jobs carry a manager title when the role is working alone or unsupervised. I once saw a job as a bin man advertised as a Mobile Waste Recycling & Collection Manager!!!

I find alot of organisations use 'buzz' titles now to glamourise roles. Linkedin seems to be a big ego site for people. A girl I know sells beauty products online and refers to herself as Company Director on Linkedin.

CJ

 

[Ianno87]

Like other forum members have stated the title of 'Manager' is used commonly now in none supervising jobs.

I always associate a Manager as a 'boss' who leads a team of employees and deals with the discipline and welfare matters.

However, many jobs carry a manager title when the role is working alone or unsupervised. I once saw a job as a bin man advertised as a Mobile Waste Recycling & Collection Manager!!!

I find alot of organisations use 'buzz' titles now to glamourise roles. Linkedin seems to be a big ego site for people. A girl I know sells beauty products online and refers to herself as Company Director on Linkedin.

CJ

Manager means "Managing" something. Which doesn't necessarily mean people.

 

[Jimbo12345]

TfL (tube) has so many positions with the word manager in the title..train operations manager, trains manager, line operations manager, duty reliability manager (drm)...all on the overtime gravy train

 

[BTU]

TfL (tube) has so many positions with the word manager in the title..train operations manager, trains manager, line operations manager, duty reliability manager (drm)...all on the overtime gravy train

Not quite true, managers have easy days which is why some people do the job and then they have long days but its written into their contract or at least it was at my TOC that there would be no overtime payments other than when a train was driven, also as someone has already said being a manager does not mean you manage people it could be any number of things that need managing.

 

[Romsey]

One role I held was "Planning Specialist", but I managed staff and the output of one stage of the possession plan for a route. Another role was Scheme Project Manager, but I didn't manage anyone (apart from my Head of Section) but I did mentor Network Rail and Contractors staff.
Manager is almost a term to say you're one stage above the basic "foot soldier" level of staff!

 

[LowLevel]

Manager means "Managing" something. Which doesn't necessarily mean people.

A wise person once said you could put the word manager in a job title and then get away with chopping to bits their terms, conditions and wage for the prestige of being a manager. You see it a lot in railway control offices. They were formerly in the supervisor grade. Calling them managers meant goodbye overtime etc.

As a conductor I take charge of a trainload of humans and work as necessary to look after them and keep them happy. Were I to be a train manager then I would have a slightly higher basic salary and next to no conditions for doing what is basically the same job - I don't technically supervise staff except in actual fact I supervise any member of staff on my train from the trolley host to travelling senior managers, they're just expected to do their own work without intervention from me but are obligated by their own contracts to work to my direction if required. Work all that out

 

[C J Snarzell]

Manager means "Managing" something. Which doesn't necessarily mean people.

Every job involves 'management' of something, in that case they could rebrand the following occupations -

Shelf stacker - stock replenishment manager.
Lolly pop person - school crossing manager
Warehouse order picker - stock collection manager
Taxi driver - private passenger conveyance manager
Bus driver - public road transport conveyance manager

......I think I've made my point here.

CJ

 

[SRH]

This is an interesting feed. But it has so many tenticles its so difficult to compartmentalise.

From my personal experiences as a drive frm my own personal experiences as a driver for 12 years. Its not the amount of managers thats the issue. Its the lack of managers that do not know the job.

For eg a college graduate that on paper looks absolutely ideal is NOT the ideal candidate for operational roles like driver managers.. This role needs a certain type of experience and unfortunately due to the rigours and tickertape put on these roles the right people for these job are now seen few and far between.

Understanding how the railway works takes time and experience and unfortunately a Go getter looking to make a name for themselves, Its not a great fit. But we see more and more of these people now.

I think the parametres will be totally different potentially for line managers or customer facing roles.

 

[MichaelAMW]

This is an interesting feed. But it has so many tenticles its so difficult to compartmentalise.

From my personal experiences as a drive frm my own personal experiences as a driver for 12 years. Its not the amount of managers thats the issue. Its the lack of managers that do not know the job.

For eg a college graduate that on paper looks absolutely ideal is NOT the ideal candidate for operational roles like driver managers.. This role needs a certain type of experience and unfortunately due to the rigours and tickertape put on these roles the right people for these job are now seen few and far between.

Understanding how the railway works takes time and experience and unfortunately a Go getter looking to make a name for themselves, Its not a great fit. But we see more and more of these people now.

I think the parametres will be totally different potentially for line managers or customer facing roles.

I disagree that the graduate is NOT the ideal candidate - they might be excellent - but equally that person may well not be. You just can't draw any definite conclusion until they start. Anyway, the main thing I wanted to ask is whether The Railway actually does very much to encourage progression internally, or is there essentially some kind of "wall" between those who are largely in offices and those largely out there on the actual railway. Without wishing to sound in any way disparaging, but just to recognise the point you made about experience, there are probably a lot of drivers who have few of the transferable skills to get into more managerial roles. It's not that they couldn't potentially do such work but 30 years of driving trains means they know about what they would be managing but maybe haven't acquired some of the more general skills that management also needs. However, based on the few drivers I know and much of what has been said in this forum over several years, drivers are entering these days with a far wider range of qualifications and often at an older age with a number of previous job roles. This must represent a major talent pool for other parts of the business: they have the skills and a wider experience to make them a decent manager, potentially at least, but also a few years out there driving the trains so that they undertand what they are making decisions about.

 

[LowLevel]

I disagree that the graduate is NOT the ideal candidate - they might be excellent - but equally that person may well not be. You just can't draw any definite conclusion until they start. Anyway, the main thing I wanted to ask is whether The Railway actually does very much to encourage progression internally, or is there essentially some kind of "wall" between those who are largely in offices and those largely out there on the actual railway. Without wishing to sound in any way disparaging, but just to recognise the point you made about experience, there are probably a lot of drivers who have few of the transferable skills to get into more managerial roles. It's not that they couldn't potentially do such work but 30 years of driving trains means they know about what they would be managing but maybe haven't acquired some of the more general skills that management also needs. However, based on the few drivers I know and much of what has been said in this forum over several years, drivers are entering these days with a far wider range of qualifications and often at an older age with a number of previous job roles. This must represent a major talent pool for other parts of the business: they have the skills and a wider experience to make them a decent manager, potentially at least, but also a few years out there driving the trains so that they undertand what they are making decisions about.

There is no *wall* per sé but unless you particularly wish to follow a management career path there is little *incentive*.

For my own role, guard. I come to work, do what is asked of me, earn a bit of overtime and the second I put my ticket machine in unless I am taking part in something like project work which I have been known to from time to time to help out my work is done.

If I was to become my manager I would earn a smidgen over my basic wage, and in real terms, quite a large pay cut. It requires on call work, dealing with sickness, disciplinaries and investigations. I would have to be on call and available to turn up whenever. I would have work to complete to a deadline.

I've been asked many times if I would consider applying for management grades and the answer is always no.

With the exception of driver management, which is often seen as an alternative role for those who are bored of/don't actually like driving that much (as well as some perfectly credible people who actually want to do the job I must say) you get very little progression from anyone except those who want to escape shift working, because it isn't really progression. I earn about 10 grand a year *more* than my manager.

 

[Mag_seven]

There are numerous incidences in the railway industry of managers earning less than those that they manage. That said there are other benefits that front line staff don't get such as first class travel facilities (for some) and subsidised private healthcare etc.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

What happens is either the jobs they were doing get missed, potentially leading to business or safety critical tasks not getting done, or worse still dumped on the existing management grades, and done by someone who's never done it, doesn't know why they're doing it, and does it badly because they also have thirty other things to be doing too.

That's how it has been done since privatisation. Why stop now ?

 

[SRH]

There is no *wall* per sé but unless you particularly wish to follow a management career path there is little *incentive*.

For my own role, guard. I come to work, do what is asked of me, earn a bit of overtime and the second I put my ticket machine in unless I am taking part in something like project work which I have been known to from time to time to help out my work is done.

If I was to become my manager I would earn a smidgen over my basic wage, and in real terms, quite a large pay cut. It requires on call work, dealing with sickness, disciplinaries and investigations. I would have to be on call and available to turn up whenever. I would have work to complete to a deadline.

I've been asked many times if I would consider applying for management grades and the answer is always no.

With the exception of driver management, which is often seen as an alternative role for those who are bored of/don't actually like driving that much (as well as some perfectly credible people who actually want to do the job I must say) you get very little progression from anyone except those who want to escape shift working, because it isn't really progression. I earn about 10 grand a year *more* than my manager.

This is Well written and explained.

Its fact.

You do how ever see some drivers go to management jobs. The majority do however move in the other direction.
A lot more managers attempt to, or become drivers

Depends on the TOC but where i am now they certainly want more people from operations to take up the operational managerial roles which goes back to what I was saying before regarding experience.

 

[306024]

When many supervisory and clerical posts were converted to managerial contracts in National Express East Anglia days, the modest pay increase did indeed mean a net pay cut for anyone doing more than minimal overtime. But at that time pensions were still based on final salary, so for subsequent years the annual pay increase applied to the higher base salary, which ultimately meant a better pension in retirement.

 

[PupCuff]

I disagree that the graduate is NOT the ideal candidate - they might be excellent - but equally that person may well not be. You just can't draw any definite conclusion until they start. Anyway, the main thing I wanted to ask is whether The Railway actually does very much to encourage progression internally, or is there essentially some kind of "wall" between those who are largely in offices and those largely out there on the actual railway. Without wishing to sound in any way disparaging, but just to recognise the point you made about experience, there are probably a lot of drivers who have few of the transferable skills to get into more managerial roles. It's not that they couldn't potentially do such work but 30 years of driving trains means they know about what they would be managing but maybe haven't acquired some of the more general skills that management also needs. However, based on the few drivers I know and much of what has been said in this forum over several years, drivers are entering these days with a far wider range of qualifications and often at an older age with a number of previous job roles. This must represent a major talent pool for other parts of the business: they have the skills and a wider experience to make them a decent manager, potentially at least, but also a few years out there driving the trains so that they undertand what they are making decisions about.

I think you have to be a certain type of person to want to be management grades on the railway. If you want to hammer the overtime, it isn't for you. If you want a job where you just come in, do your thing, and then tomorrow's a new day, it isn't for you. In many cases when you 'step up', for want of a better word, from frontline staff to "management", somewhere between a small percentage and a good number of former colleagues will immediately cease to trust you because you are now 'a manager'. Coupled with the fact that wages aren't necessarily much better than frontline staff earn, many frontline staff don't see it as anything they're interested in doing. If you're happy being a conductor, and you're good at it, what's to say that you'll then enjoy (or be any good at) doing disciplinaries, or conducting safety investigations, or managing a local budget, if you become a manager, for little extra pay?

The risk bringing in graduates is that some companies think "ooh, graduate!" as though they'll be the answer to all their problems and the reality is that a graduate will still need training and whether you've been a bus driver for three years or spent that time doing a history degree if you want the output to be a competent, professional railway manager you'll still need to immerse yourself in a ton of railway, business, and health and safety law before you even start getting to grips with the operational side of things.