• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Is the sunflower lanyard scheme being abused?

Status
Not open for further replies.

PTR 444

Established Member
Joined
22 Aug 2019
Messages
2,387
Location
Wimborne
I saw a post on Facebook earlier today stating how the current face mask requirements are rendering the original intention of the sunflower lanyard obsolete. In case you’re not aware, the lanyard was introduced in 2016 to help raise awareness of hidden disabilities. Many people with these sorts of disabilities are indeed exempt from wearing a face mask, so it’s no surprise that the lanyard has become synonymous with proof of exemption.

The problem however is, sunflower lanyards are really easy for anyone to obtain. You can order one online for just around 55p, and this has meant that anyone can just use the lanyard to get out of wearing a mask, even if they are not exempt. I have noticed a lot more people wearing them in the past six months, and I expect they will be thrown away as soon as mask wearing is no longer required. This could have implications for people who did use the lanyard before the pandemic since others will now just see it as the ‘proof of mask exemption’ rather than hidden disability awareness.

I think it would have been better if a proof of disability had been required before anyone could obtain a sunflower lanyard, but it is too late now and I think the people behind the scheme will have to rebrand in order to remove the association with Covid-19 and mask exemptions.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Skimpot flyer

Established Member
Joined
16 Nov 2012
Messages
1,764
Anyone who is not exempt can also get out of wearing a mask by saying ‘I am exempt’ if challenged. The covid laws (regulations) are poorly drafted, and can be abused even without a lanyard, if people are brazen enough, don’t fail the ‘attitude test’ and know the wording.
 

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
71,850
Location
Yorkshire
I saw a post on Facebook earlier today stating how the current face mask requirements are rendering the original intention of the sunflower lanyard obsolete. In case you’re not aware, the lanyard was introduced in 2016 to help raise awareness of hidden disabilities. Many people with these sorts of disabilities are indeed exempt from wearing a face mask, so it’s no surprise that the lanyard has become synonymous with proof of exemption.

This is one of the many problems created by the mask mandate.

The problem however is, sunflower lanyards are really easy for anyone to obtain.

That isn't the problem.

You can order one online for just around 55p, and this has meant that anyone can just use the lanyard to get out of wearing a mask,

There is no requirement to wear a lanyard to prove anything.
even if they are not exempt.

Anyone can say "I am exempt"; wearing a lanyard doesn't change that fundamental fact.

I have noticed a lot more people wearing them in the past six months, and I expect they will be thrown away as soon as mask wearing is no longer required.

People may not have any other need for them and/or may not ordinarily wish to be 'labelled'

This could have implications for people who did use the lanyard before the pandemic since others will now just see it as the ‘proof of mask exemption’ rather than hidden disability awareness.

This is a problem created by the mandating of masks and is in the minds of people who unfairly judge others.

I think it would have been better if a proof of disability had been required before anyone could obtain a sunflower lanyard, but it is too late now and
This has been discussed before, but the burden on whoever was issuing the proof would be huge. Also how would someone "prove" eligibility? I don't think you've thought thorough how this could actually work

I think the people behind the scheme will have to rebrand in order to remove the association with Covid-19 and mask exemptions.
What did you have in mind?
 

Crossover

Established Member
Joined
4 Jun 2009
Messages
9,370
Location
Yorkshire
There is no requirement to wear a lanyard to prove anything.
On the flip side I have heard people say they've obtained one simply to stop the mithering from some quarters

I have to say (as a general point) that the sunflower lanyard was a "thing" though it does explain why it was so quickly available
 

lkpridgeon

Verified Rep - FastJP
Joined
30 Jan 2019
Messages
314
Location
Micheldever Station / Saxilby
Personally I reckon it'll help the hidden disability lanyard cause in the long run as the situation has raised awareness of the scheme to companies that didn't used to recognise them and given on the job training to those that were already on the scheme however gave it lipservice.

As someone whom carried one prior to the face covering rules, I have noticed a change in attitude from customer facing staff over the scheme. Since it became the defacto "I'm exempt" proof they've generally gone from being more helpful/attentive to treating anyone with one as just another punter. However once the regulation is dropped as stated above people will stop wearing them and the original purpose will return just with hopefully greater awareness.

I think it would have been better if a proof of disability had been required before anyone could obtain a sunflower lanyard, but it is too late now and I think the people behind the scheme will have to rebrand in order to remove the association with Covid-19 and mask exemptions.
There is no real way to do this as by the schemes nature it was supposed to be for hidden disabilities. Often they're something that doesn't affect day to day life too much so don't warrant seeking NHS treatment/diagnosis, for people that have gone down the private counselling route such as myself due to the appalling state of public Adult mental health services if you're in a low risk category (not a harm to self or others) or simply stuck in waiting list hell.
The problem however is, sunflower lanyards are really easy for anyone to obtain. You can order one online for just around 55p,
I didn't realise people were buying them! Most companies on the scheme such as SWR (and the rest of first group I believe)/LNER/Tesco offer them free of charge without the need for explanation.
 

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
71,850
Location
Yorkshire
Personally I reckon it'll help the hidden disability lanyard cause in the long run as the situation has raised awareness of the scheme to companies that didn't used to recognise them and given on the job training to those that were already on the scheme however gave it lipservice.
Yes, I think this is more likely.

At some point I plan to ask some of the young people at my workplace who wear these lanyards for their experiences and aim to report back with a summary (if I have not done so by Spring 2021, remind me, as I may forget!)

The experience at my workplace is that many people who are clearly exempt are not wearing the lanyards and are instead wearing masks, even if it makes them uncomfortable and/or is challenging for them.

I did suggest a lanyard to someone with ADHD but I see that so far he has persisted with wearing the mask (I often see the mask not worn properly but obviously I do not say anything, other than the first time when I made sure he was aware of the exemption scheme). What does concern me is that, despite people like him being legally exempt, I think that colleagues could (I say could; I do not know if this is actually happening or not) still attempt to punish him, just because he is trying to do what he sees as being the right thing. This troubles me greatly.

Having heard first hand from people how badly some people are treated, as well as reading numerous reports (I've posted some here back in July), I am determined to do what little I can to help.

I just hope everyone else is as kind; sadly this pandemic is an absolute boon for authoritarians :( One thing is for sure: anyone who is on the side of the authoritarians, and stubbornly refuses to see the error of their ways, will not easily be forgiven. If I lose friends over it, that's a shame but at least I can hold my head high, unlike them.
 
Last edited:

greyman42

Established Member
Joined
14 Aug 2017
Messages
5,264
I just hope everyone else is as kind; sadly this pandemic is an absolute boon for authoritarians :( One thing is for sure: anyone who is on the side of the authoritarians, and stubbornly refuses to see the error of their ways, will not easily be forgiven.
Yes, there will be a day of reckoning for these people.
 

alxndr

Established Member
Joined
3 Apr 2015
Messages
1,575
The sunflower scheme has certainly got muddled up with mask exemptions. It doesn't help that some places are essentially saying you must wear a mask or a lanyard. It's not right, but it's happening.
 

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
71,850
Location
Yorkshire
The sunflower scheme has certainly got muddled up with mask exemptions. It doesn't help that some places are essentially saying you must wear a mask or a lanyard. It's not right, but it's happening.
What places are those? If it's a workplace/school, while I agree with you that it's not right, I can sort of understand it, and it may not be illegal.

But if it's being imposed by a business on customers, then I believe this is likely to be illegal.
 

alxndr

Established Member
Joined
3 Apr 2015
Messages
1,575
What places are those? If it's a workplace/school, while I agree with you that it's not right, I can sort of understand it, and it may not be illegal.

But if it's being imposed by a business on customers, then I believe this is likely to be illegal.
Work. They haven't explicitly said it but by the way they've phrased "if you're exempt you can obtain a lanyard from x" they're implying they want you wearing one or the other.
 
Joined
12 Sep 2014
Messages
230
What places are those? If it's a workplace/school, while I agree with you that it's not right, I can sort of understand it, and it may not be illegal.

But if it's being imposed by a business on customers, then I believe this is likely to be illegal.
I've seen a few bus operators do this, Ipswich buses is one i can remember.


If I am exempt, how do I let the driver know?

If you have an exemption and you are unable to wear a face covering please be prepared to inform the driver and show one of the following:

  • a Face Mask exemption card which can be obtained from our Travel Shop in Tower Ramparts Bus Station
  • a government issued exemption card (phone or printed)
  • Wearing a Sunflower Lanyard
  • Using your mobility or disabled bus pass, which registers on the ticket machine and the driver can see you are exempt
If you do have a valid exemption from wearing a face mask then maybe you should ask yourself that with your medical condition should you be mixing with large groups of people in the midst of a global pandemic, and if your journey is not necessary then maybe you should not travel or try to travel at less busy times.

If you are not wearing a face covering and cannot show the driver any of the above then you will not be permitted to travel and you will be asked to leave the vehicle.
 

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
71,850
Location
Yorkshire
I've seen a few bus operators do this, Ipswich buses is one i can remember.

I'm pretty sure that's illegal and can be challenged.

I have given them an invitation to comply with the law:


@ipswichbuses this is concerning: https://railforums.co.uk/threads/is-the-sunflower-lanyard-scheme-being-abused.211409/post-4873234 "... you will not be permitted to travel..." there is no requirement for anyone to prove an exemption; therefore, can you please modify your website, in compliance with the law, as soon as possible. Thank you
Hopefully they will give a positive response.
 

Gloster

Established Member
Joined
4 Sep 2020
Messages
10,286
Location
Up the creek
Having seen one woman who proudly told those around her that she was exempt - she used that very word - because wearing a mask upset the two lap-dogs that she was carrying, there does need to be consistency and clarity about who can be exempt and why. And then some proper enforcement. What is a bus driver to do if a couple of hefty blokes just go and sit down after claiming they are exempt when asked to put on a mask on boarding? My observation is that more than one in ten don’t use a mask and maybe a quarter of the rest either don’t put it on until after they have sat down, take it off to make ‘phone calls or wear it so badly that it loses much of its effect. What is the point of wearing a mask around your chin?
 

Richard Scott

Established Member
Associate Staff
International Transport
Railtours & Preservation
Joined
13 Dec 2018
Messages
4,023
What is the point of wearing a mask around your chin?
You could just ask what's the point in wearing a mask! On the lanyard point, I've seen very few people with them when I've been out and about so don't think it's being abused or maybe by very few at worst.
 

Gloster

Established Member
Joined
4 Sep 2020
Messages
10,286
Location
Up the creek
You could just ask what's the point in wearing a mask! On the lanyard point, I've seen very few people with them when I've been out and about so don't think it's being abused or maybe by very few at worst.

When I said ‘around the chin’, I meant that the top of the mask is below the level of the mouth: it does not cover either of the main orifices through which COVID germs might exit the body. I am fully in favour of mask wearing as I believe it does considerably lessen the chances that a wearer will pass on the infection, but I accept that it only slightly reduces the chances of the wearer being infected and is not a permanent solution. I consider that I have a responsibility towards others to make a reasonable effort not to infect them with a potentially fatal disease: I do not consider wearing a mask when indoors in public areas or when in crowded outdoor areas to be unreasonable.

As far as the lanyard is concerned, I have seen a few, but it is more that - quite frankly - I cannot believe that all of those people who just say, if asked, that they are exempt, aren’t. It needs a properly organised system (fat chance with this government): if you have a specific card (say), available only from proper medical sources, you are exempt. Otherwise, put on a mask and if you refuse, you can go to court. (Despite the amount of court time it will take up, you should at least have the right to argue your case, not a fixed fine; but the only defence would be medical.)

I will add that up to the beginning of September I spent a year in a care home, which was one that did not suffer any COVID deaths during this period due to good management, careful staff and (probably) luck. It does mean that, although I was better placed than most of the other residents, being younger and fully compos mentis, the idea that people might die was not an abstract concept, but something that could happen to those around me. Additionally, I kept up with the news and it is quite clear that, however annoying and uncomfortable wearing a mask is, it is a d**n sight better than dying. Wearing a mask reduces the risk of shortening someone else’s life: an hour to two a day’s slight inconvenience for a year or two (one hopes) for you could avoid fifty years of someone else’s life not happening.
 

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
71,850
Location
Yorkshire
When I said ‘around the chin’, I meant that the top of the mask is below the level of the mouth: it does not cover either of the main orifices through which COVID germs might exit the body. I am fully in favour of mask wearing as I believe it does considerably lessen the chances that a wearer will pass on the infection
There is little evidence they reduce transmission, let alone "considerably", given countries with mask mandates have not done any better than countries without, and I am not aware of any graphs showing any evidence of a reduction in cases after a mask mandate was introduced.

, but I accept that it only slightly reduces the chances of the wearer being infected and is not a permanent solution.
I think you meant to say it might slightly reduce the chances of the wearer passing it on, with absolutely no difference to the chances of the wearer being infected. Even people who advocate the wearing of cloth face coverings (which is what the mask mandate is about, not mandating N95 masks!) don't try to claim they protect the wearer!

I consider that I have a responsibility towards others to make a reasonable effort not to infect them with a potentially fatal disease: I do not consider wearing a mask when indoors in public areas or when in crowded outdoor areas to be unreasonable.
Which viruses do you deem yourself to have a responsibility not to infect people with?

Does that include rhinoviruses (a colleague of mine was recently hospitalised with a rhinovirus) or 'flu?
If so, how long have you held this responsibility for?
And if not, why not?

As far as the lanyard is concerned, I have seen a few, but it is more that - quite frankly - I cannot believe that all of those people who just say, if asked, that they are exempt, aren’t. It needs a properly organised system (fat chance with this government): if you have a specific card (say), available only from proper medical sources, you are exempt. Otherwise, put on a mask and if you refuse, you can go to court. (Despite the amount of court time it will take up, you should at least have the right to argue your case, not a fixed fine; but the only defence would be medical.)
Your attempts to place a great burden on doctors trying to determine if people are exempt or not are noted, but not welcomed. It's just not practicable, as you would know if you have been following this topic. Do you have any idea how burdensome this would be?

I will add that up to the beginning of September I spent a year in a care home, which was one that did not suffer any COVID deaths during this period due to good management, careful staff and (probably) luck. It does mean that, although I was better placed than most of the other residents, being younger and fully compos mentis, the idea that people might die was not an abstract concept, but something that could happen to those around me. Additionally, I kept up with the news and it is quite clear that, however annoying and uncomfortable wearing a mask is, it is a d**n sight better than dying.
Do you have any evidence that not wearing a mask puts people at risk of dying? Does your logic apply to all viruses, or just Sars-Cov-2?

Wearing a mask reduces the risk of shortening someone else’s life:

Do you have any evidence of this?
an hour to two a day’s slight inconvenience for a year or two (one hopes) for you could avoid fifty years of someone else’s life not happening.
How would you ensure that everyone does not have to suffer the inconvenience for a maximum of an hour or two each day, given many people work in workplaces where, presumably, you want masks to be mandated?

As for your claim of extending lives by forty years, in addition to my questions above I'd also like to ask what do you think the average age of a death with Covid is?
 

alxndr

Established Member
Joined
3 Apr 2015
Messages
1,575
Let's not have yet another thread on the efficacy of masks...
 

Mojo

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
7 Aug 2005
Messages
20,759
Location
0035
Your attempts to place a great burden on doctors trying to determine if people are exempt or not are noted, but not welcomed. It's just not practicable, as you would know if you have been following this topic. Do you have any idea how burdensome this would be?
Even if the time existed in their schedule, it would also be nigh on impossible for a doctor to make a judgment like that.

My boss sent me to a doctor and he basically said that he couldn’t make a decision either way, only that if I feel I need to for health reasons to remove it, that I should.

It’s also worth pointing out that it is very difficult for someone to wear a face mask in accordance with the public health guidelines and also working within the law at the same time.
 

Bantamzen

Established Member
Joined
4 Dec 2013
Messages
9,996
Location
Baildon, West Yorkshire
Even if the time existed in their schedule, it would also be nigh on impossible for a doctor to make a judgment like that.

My boss sent me to a doctor and he basically said that he couldn’t make a decision either way, only that if I feel I need to for health reasons to remove it, that I should.

It’s also worth pointing out that it is very difficult for someone to wear a face mask in accordance with the public health guidelines and also working within the law at the same time.
Absolutely, doctors will have enough on their hands dealing with the close to 5 million backlogged procedures because of covid-mania without them having to make often near-impossible assessments for an exemption scheme.
 

OneOffDave

Member
Joined
2 Apr 2015
Messages
453
Yes, there will be a day of reckoning for these people.
This reckoning, are we talking camps? Purges?

It’s also worth pointing out that it is very difficult for someone to wear a face mask in accordance with the public health guidelines and also working within the law at the same time.
How specifically do these two things conflict? Which law would you be breaking by wearing a face mask
 

initiation

Member
Joined
10 Nov 2014
Messages
432
Sorry but can you explain what is wrong with them enforcing the law about wearing masks?
The law in now way requires 'proof' to be shown. A person can state 'I am exempt' and that is sufficient. So they are enforcing a completely made up aspect of the law.

I see they have responded. I hope they can be pointed directly to the relevant rules/guidance. If not, perhaps escalate.
 

Mojo

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
7 Aug 2005
Messages
20,759
Location
0035
This reckoning, are we talking camps? Purges?


How specifically do these two things conflict? Which law would you be breaking by wearing a face mask
That isn’t what I said at all.
 

jumble

Member
Joined
1 Jul 2011
Messages
1,199
Having seen one woman who proudly told those around her that she was exempt - she used that very word - because wearing a mask upset the two lap-dogs that she was carrying, there does need to be consistency and clarity about who can be exempt and why. And then some proper enforcement. What is a bus driver to do if a couple of hefty blokes just go and sit down after claiming they are exempt when asked to put on a mask on boarding? My observation is that more than one in ten don’t use a mask and maybe a quarter of the rest either don’t put it on until after they have sat down, take it off to make ‘phone calls or wear it so badly that it loses much of its effect. What is the point of wearing a mask around your chin?
There is no need for bus drivers or anyone else except for the Police or TFL enforcement officers to do anything except mind their own business
This is the status quo in London so anyone making a fuss about exemption certificates is trying to find a solution to a problem that does not exist
 
Last edited:

OneOffDave

Member
Joined
2 Apr 2015
Messages
453
That isn’t what I said at all.
What you actually said was:
It’s also worth pointing out that it is very difficult for someone to wear a face mask in accordance with the public health guidelines and also working within the law at the same time
I was asking how would wearing a mask in accordance with the guidelines (most of which are technically regulations) prevent you from working within the law. I presume you have some example of how this might be true. Or is there a missing word that would change the meaning of what you said to mean it refers to the enforcement of the guidelines?
 

Mojo

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
7 Aug 2005
Messages
20,759
Location
0035
I was asking how would wearing a mask in accordance with the guidelines (most of which are technically regulations) prevent you from working within the law. I presume you have some example of how this might be true. Or is there a missing word that would change the meaning of what you said to mean it refers to the enforcement of the guidelines?
No, I am talking about the health guidelines surrounding wearing them, not the regulations / law. I never said you would be breaking the law by wearing one. I said it is very difficult to wear one as required under the law, whilst also acting in consideration to the guidelines issued by public health bodies.

Firstly, you are supposed to wash or sanitise your hands prior to wearing one, despite the fact that that in most shops the sanitiser is only located once you are inside. It is also guidance to replace it if you have touched it (for example if requested by shop staff to verify ID). It is also very difficult to transport your mask to the point at which you are supposed to wear it without risking it becoming contaminated. Once a mask is removed it should not be used again until it is washed (for so-called re-usable ones) or if single use should be disposed of as soon as removed.
 

DB

Guest
Joined
18 Nov 2009
Messages
5,036
On the flip side I have heard people say they've obtained one simply to stop the mithering from some quarters

That is exactly the reason I have got one - the reason why it is justified is not something which would normally require any special treatment in shops, trains, etc, so normally there would be no reason to wear one. I just got absolutely sick of being challenged and the demands for 'proof' from assorted jobsworths. Much as I dislike wearing it, it is prefereble to the hassle, given that it's clear that the government has no intention of doing anything to stop the demands for 'proof' (e.g. by fining businesses which do it).

The law in now way requires 'proof' to be shown. A person can state 'I am exempt' and that is sufficient. So they are enforcing a completely made up aspect of the law.

I see they have responded. I hope they can be pointed directly to the relevant rules/guidance. If not, perhaps escalate.

I'm not on Twitter, but perhaps somebody could respond pointing out that they are potentially breaching equality legislation by this demand for 'proof', if they refuse travel to someone who doesn't have proof, but is exempt from wearing a mask due to a protected characteristic.
 
Last edited:

matt_world2004

Established Member
Joined
5 Nov 2014
Messages
4,577
Is there really mass abuse of the sunflower lanyard scheme to really worry about this. It seems like a lot of inconvenience to go through just because you don't want to wear a mask rather than exempt from wearing one
 

DB

Guest
Joined
18 Nov 2009
Messages
5,036
Is there really mass abuse of the sunflpwer lanyard scheme to really worry about this.

No, I don't think there is. It sounds very much like another thing which maskivists have latched onto with no evidence - they basically want everyone to be masked.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top