Is there a big shortage of drivers at Great Northern?

[StateOfPlay]

Quite a few trains cancelled from KGX and Moorgate this afternoon/evening due to lack of train crew. The response I have seen from GN is that they are trying to recruit new staff and that soon they will have too many drivers.

http://prntscr.com/8ke3hi

Hi Jon, we are actively recruiting and training new drivers. Before you know it there will be too many - Tina

It is a bit poor on a Friday when people have worked hard all week just want to get home and the trains are cancelled due to no drivers. Do they pay really low in Govia, or do they treat staff so bad that they all leave?

 

[Tubeboy]

Sick, annual leave, training, need I go on?

 

[StateOfPlay]

Sick, annual leave, training, need I go on?

Well, I did ask but they can't say as they don't get told why the train crew is unavailable. But this is happening more and more frequently in the last few weeks.

 

[Tubeboy]

A big spike in sickness? Sadly it happens.

 

[A-driver]

Not sickness just still not enough productive drivers employed. Plus a few off following incidents and fatalities in recent weeks.

And it's still the tail end of the summer leave period so still full quota of annual leave being taken most days.

Despite all the trainees being recruited try actually have had less productive drivers this year than they had same time last year!

 

[redbutton]

If it's like my place, it'll mainly be a combination of new drivers not yet signing all the routes and drivers being taken off for rules days and low adhesion training.

Annual leave is also a factor, as drivers have to use up all their leave by the end of the year or else they lose it.

At my depot (not GN but no reason they would be different) we also have a couple of people who are off-track due to medical restriction or incident investigations.

All of these things lead to cancelled trains if the work can't be covered using rest-day overtime, which is hard to arrange on Friday nights and weekends for obvious reasons.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Annual leave is also a factor, as drivers have to use up all their leave by the end of the year or else they lose it.

That doesn't sound like a very sensible annual leave policy for an organization that requires a certain number of staff to be working each day and therefore can't afford to have large numbers of staff taking leave at the same time!

 

[A-driver]

That doesn't sound like a very sensible annual leave policy for an organization that requires a certain number of staff to be working each day and therefore can't afford to have large numbers of staff taking leave at the same time!

There is a maximum quota for each depot per day. This is worked out by taking the depot establishment into account and should be covered by spare turns. But when you have vacancies the spare turns can't cover all the annual leave vacancies.

 

[LateThanNever]

That doesn't sound like a very sensible annual leave policy for an organization that requires a certain number of staff to be working each day and therefore can't afford to have large numbers of staff taking leave at the same time!

Quite. Poor management again. But it seems that for a five year or so franchise it is not worth bothering! Seems that the 'fines' for not running need to be increased...

 

[455driver]

Our AL runs from Jan 01st to Dec 31st with the result that anyone with leave left over has to use it up in December or lose it but Management wont grant it if its over the normal daily limits (for obvious reasons) and they wont let us carry any outstanding days over into the next year. So we have the usual chest beating goings on until they agree to let us carry it over.

Why they cant change it so it runs from April to March or runs from May to April making life a lot easier is beyond me!



Edit-
I am surprised nobody picked up on the fact my 'years' were only 2 months long (see Hadders quote)!

 

[Hadders]

Why they cant change it so it runs from March to April or from April to May making life a lot easier is beyond me!

How's that going to help? It's still 12 months of leave to get into 12 months!

Holiday scheduling is they key think, making sure that holidays are spread as evenly as possible throughout the year. Naturally there will be a spike in the summer months but the root cause is often too little holiday being taken in the first couple of months of the holiday year meaning too much to be squeezed in at the end of it.

 

[455driver]

How's that going to help? It's still 12 months of leave to get into 12 months!

Holiday scheduling is they key think, making sure that holidays are spread as evenly as possible throughout the year. Naturally there will be a spike in the summer months but the root cause is often too little holiday being taken in the first couple of months of the holiday year meaning too much to be squeezed in at the end of it.

Because it would be easier for everyone to use their leave up in March or April (when few people are on leave/need the extra days than in December when there is some holiday thing or other at the end of the month), plus I would rather waste the spare AL days when I might get some decent weather rather than in the depths of Winter.

The weeks Holidays are all allocated, its the ad hoc days I am talking about.

 

[gazthomas]

In previous companies my annual leave year would start the month I started employment with them, distributes things a bit more (unless you're a company that has very high intakes periodically of course)

 

[A-driver]

I don't think using AL is a huge issue as most people book theirs a year in advance to garuntee days off.

Each depot, depending on size, is given a quota they can allow ad hoc leave on. So perhaps they are allowed 6 drivers to be off on AL every day. Spare turns should cover these 6 jobs. Most days they will only have 3-4 drivers on AL. But often ok Friday's and sat they will have the full 6 booked off. Any one else who asks for leave will be declined unless there are enough RDW volunteers to cover their job in which case additional leave can be granted. But regardless of if they can cover it, they obviously have to honour the first 6 leave requests.

At the moment they don't have enough drivers to cover these AL spaces using spare men so rely on covering them with RDW. But often on Fridays, especially this time of year, 6 drivers will be on AL and very few drivers will be volunteering to do RDW. This means they can't cover the jobs the drivers on leave should be on.

The problem is 100% the fault of companies trying to run with depots under staffed to save money. If you want to rely on voluntary OT you must accept you will have issues on some days.

GTR haven't helped themselves by ensuring they do everything in their power to throughly pee the entire workforce of drivers off and destroy morale. Doing this (by ripping up agreements and working practice and refusing to consult drivers over changes) simply means less people choose to work days off. Plus with the new payroll system which was forced through against drivers wishes on the basis it would cause issues causing major pay problems drivers are finding when they do work extra thy have to spend weeks chasing up payment as they haven't been paid for the extra! This has led meant drivers to completely stop doing anything above their rostered hours.

 

[HLE]

I don't think using AL is a huge issue as most people book theirs a year in advance to garuntee days off.

Each depot, depending on size, is given a quota they can allow ad hoc leave on. So perhaps they are allowed 6 drivers to be off on AL every day. Spare turns should cover these 6 jobs. Most days they will only have 3-4 drivers on AL. But often ok Friday's and sat they will have the full 6 booked off. Any one else who asks for leave will be declined unless there are enough RDW volunteers to cover their job in which case additional leave can be granted. But regardless of if they can cover it, they obviously have to honour the first 6 leave requests.

At the moment they don't have enough drivers to cover these AL spaces using spare men so rely on covering them with RDW. But often on Fridays, especially this time of year, 6 drivers will be on AL and very few drivers will be volunteering to do RDW. This means they can't cover the jobs the drivers on leave should be on.

The problem is 100% the fault of companies trying to run with depots under staffed to save money. If you want to rely on voluntary OT you must accept you will have issues on some days.

GTR haven't helped themselves by ensuring they do everything in their power to throughly pee the entire workforce of drivers off and destroy morale. Doing this (by ripping up agreements and working practice and refusing to consult drivers over changes) simply means less people choose to work days off. Plus with the new payroll system which was forced through against drivers wishes on the basis it would cause issues causing major pay problems drivers are finding when they do work extra thy have to spend weeks chasing up payment as they haven't been paid for the extra! This has led meant drivers to completely stop doing anything above their rostered hours.

A lot of companies are now getting like this.

An attitude of: we'll do what we like and we couldn't care less what the workers think.

It's only going to get worse.

 

[ExRes]

That doesn't sound like a very sensible annual leave policy for an organization that requires a certain number of staff to be working each day and therefore can't afford to have large numbers of staff taking leave at the same time!

I think you'll find that it was exactly the same under BR so, for those who may think it, there's no privatisation conspiracy here

 

[Bishopstone]

Holiday scheduling is they key think, making sure that holidays are spread as evenly as possible throughout the year. Naturally there will be a spike in the summer months but the root cause is often too little holiday being taken in the first couple of months of the holiday year meaning too much to be squeezed in at the end of it.

But equally, isn't it prudent to hold a few days in reserve until towards the very end of the holiday year? Otherwise, what do you do if there's an unexpected emergency such as illness in the family, an event at the kid's school with little notice, or a need to stay at home to supervise a plumber? I'd be quite uncomfortable going into month 10 having used up all my leave, although some do.

 

[tony6499]

The railway has always been driven by staff goodwill, it is impossible to run a scheduled service without the goodwill of train crew.

It's a shame managers are unable to realise this.

 

[PHILIPE]

Today's managers have no idea what good industrial relations are.

 

[455driver]

The latest trick at my place is to ask you to come in early or stay on after, agree a payment but then 'forget' to pay you for the overtime, quite a few drivers are suffering the same problem.

Easy answer is that I no longer help out, I don't do charity work!

 

[Robertj21a]

Today's managers have no idea what good industrial relations are.

A wild, sweeping, statement that does a disservice to many managers who are concerned to do the job to the best of their ability.

 

[A-driver]

A wild, sweeping, statement that does a disservice to many managers who are concerned to do the job to the best of their ability.

Can you give any evidence to back up your assumption that some senior managers are concerned about industrial relations? The state of IR at most TOCs and the resulting lack of train crew goodwill does a very good job at backing up 'PHILIPEs' post to be accurate!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The latest trick at my place is to ask you to come in early or stay on after, agree a payment but then 'forget' to pay you for the overtime, quite a few drivers are suffering the same problem.

Easy answer is that I no longer help out, I don't do charity work!

Exactly the same on the GN. You agree extra work and extra hours for that, do the work and get your payslip finding no hours credited. Then have to spend weeks chasing up payroll and the foreman to get the extra hours authorised and added on. Not worth the hassle so most drivers now just say no when asked to do anything beyond their hours. That's why GN are struggling at the moment. I personally, along with many others, would always do extra if I could to help the company out (I believe in working together with the foreman and control when they need favours-means I've more chance of being helped out of I need a favour on the future of nothing else) but since the pay issues I've stopped as it's simply not worth it.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

A wild, sweeping, statement that does a disservice to many managers who are concerned to do the job to the best of their ability.

Can you give any evidence to back up your assumption that some senior managers are concerned about industrial relations? The state of IR at most TOCs and the resulting lack of train crew goodwill does a very good job at backing up 'PHILIPEs' post to be accurate!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The statement that Robertj21a was calling out didn't distinguish managers in TOCs, but appeared to be condemning all managers in all industries, and as such is clearly an over-generalization. For my part, looking back over my last few jobs, all three of my previous immediate managers (nothing to do with rail) were in my view competent, and fully aware of the need for good industrial relations - that alone appears to falsify PHILIPE's assertion. I do fully sympathize with you and others working in the rail industry who do - from what I can tell from reading this thread - appear to be suffering poor or incompetent management, and I have to admit to being somewhat shocked by what you are saying goes on in when working for ATOCs - sounds like some pretty appalling situations. That doesn't justify overgeneralizing though

 

[A-driver]

The statement that Robertj21a was calling out didn't distinguish managers in TOCs, but appeared to be condemning all managers in all industries, and as such is clearly an over-generalization. For my part, looking back over my last few jobs, all three of my previous immediate managers (nothing to do with rail) were in my view competent, and fully aware of the need for good industrial relations - that alone appears to falsify PHILIPE's assertion. I do fully sympathize with you and others working in the rail industry who do - from what I can tell from reading this thread - appear to be suffering poor or incompetent management, and I have to admit to being somewhat shocked by what you are saying goes on in when working for ATOCs - sounds like some pretty appalling situations. That doesn't justify overgeneralizing though

Considering it's a railway forum and a topic about the railways I believed it to be in relation to railway management.

 

[StateOfPlay]

Exactly the same on the GN. You agree extra work and extra hours for that, do the work and get your payslip finding no hours credited. Then have to spend weeks chasing up payroll and the foreman to get the extra hours authorised and added on. Not worth the hassle so most drivers now just say no when asked to do anything beyond their hours. That's why GN are struggling at the moment. I personally, along with many others, would always do extra if I could to help the company out (I believe in working together with the foreman and control when they need favours-means I've more chance of being helped out of I need a favour on the future of nothing else) but since the pay issues I've stopped as it's simply not worth it.

[/QUOTE]


I don't blame people for not wanting to volunteer for extra hours if the company can't put in place a system to ensure you get paid for it.

I am not sure of this is the same for you, but in the company I work for the top bosses are able to earn handsome bonus payments each year, and to do this they have to reach all the customer satisfaction targets as well as keeping costs to a minimum. So they ask you to work extra to satisfy customers, and then do their best to avoid paying you for it. Our Union had to take up our case and the CEO had to send a letter to all middle and upper management to tell them that they must pay staff if they ask them to do extra hours. He then had to send the letter a second time. And still this happens.

 

[Hadders]

But equally, isn't it prudent to hold a few days in reserve until towards the very end of the holiday year? Otherwise, what do you do if there's an unexpected emergency such as illness in the family, an event at the kid's school with little notice, or a need to stay at home to supervise a plumber? I'd be quite uncomfortable going into month 10 having used up all my leave, although some do.

Problem is, if everyone does this then there's going to be an issue fitting all the holidays in during the last month of the holiday year. It doesn't matter when the year starts, the 12th month will be an issue.

From reading the posts on here it seems that one of the root causes is the pay issue, with those doing overtime not getting paid for it then having to chase it up. This is quite disgraceful - I'm sure it's more cock-up rather than conspiracy but it's really not on if you want to keep the workforce 'on side'.

 

[Skimble19]

I don't think using AL is a huge issue as most people book theirs a year in advance to garuntee days off.

Each depot, depending on size, is given a quota they can allow ad hoc leave on. So perhaps they are allowed 6 drivers to be off on AL every day. Spare turns should cover these 6 jobs. Most days they will only have 3-4 drivers on AL. But often ok Friday's and sat they will have the full 6 booked off. Any one else who asks for leave will be declined unless there are enough RDW volunteers to cover their job in which case additional leave can be granted. But regardless of if they can cover it, they obviously have to honour the first 6 leave requests.

At the moment they don't have enough drivers to cover these AL spaces using spare men so rely on covering them with RDW. But often on Fridays, especially this time of year, 6 drivers will be on AL and very few drivers will be volunteering to do RDW. This means they can't cover the jobs the drivers on leave should be on.

The problem is 100% the fault of companies trying to run with depots under staffed to save money. If you want to rely on voluntary OT you must accept you will have issues on some days.

GTR haven't helped themselves by ensuring they do everything in their power to throughly pee the entire workforce of drivers off and destroy morale. Doing this (by ripping up agreements and working practice and refusing to consult drivers over changes) simply means less people choose to work days off. Plus with the new payroll system which was forced through against drivers wishes on the basis it would cause issues causing major pay problems drivers are finding when they do work extra thy have to spend weeks chasing up payment as they haven't been paid for the extra! This has led meant drivers to completely stop doing anything above their rostered hours.

Re: the bottom paragraph. It's not just you guys, the rest of us at GN are feeling exactly the same - at least your pay rise has been sorted though!! Very few staff agreeing to do overtime compared to last year, and agency left right and centre who haven't got a bloody clue what they're doing! And as for the payslip, I'm glad it's not just us they're doing that to!

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Problem is, if everyone does this then there's going to be an issue fitting all the holidays in during the last month of the holiday year. It doesn't matter when the year starts, the 12th month will be an issue.

I would argue that's exactly the reason why not allowing people to carry holidays over to the following year is so silly. If you allow people to carry holidays over, then everyone can keep some days in reserve towards the end of the year in case emergencies crop up, but in most cases people won't use those holidays, they'll simply carry them over, so there wont' normally be any staffing issues. So everyone is happy.

 

[A-driver]

I would argue that's exactly the reason why not allowing people to carry holidays over to the following year is so silly. If you allow people to carry holidays over, then everyone can keep some days in reserve towards the end of the year in case emergencies crop up, but in most cases people won't use those holidays, they'll simply carry them over, so there wont' normally be any staffing issues. So everyone is happy.

To be honest though, few drivers ever need to save leave as there are other options in a true emergancy-people help each other out so swapping shifts about is fairly easy.

 

[Hadders]

I would argue that's exactly the reason why not allowing people to carry holidays over to the following year is so silly. If you allow people to carry holidays over, then everyone can keep some days in reserve towards the end of the year in case emergencies crop up, but in most cases people won't use those holidays, they'll simply carry them over, so there wont' normally be any staffing issues. So everyone is happy.

I don't work in the railways but when I was responsible for staff scheduling in a previous employment my view was that holiday should not be carried over. Staff have a whole year in which to schedule and take their holiday - if they can't do this what's going to change the following year - how are they going to fit in more entitlement the following year?

The only time I would allow holiday to be carried over was in exceptional circumstances, for example if a week was cancelled towards the end of the holiday year to assist the business.