Is there a difference in prosecution outcome?

Discussion in 'Disputes & Prosecutions' started by ohsostupid, 30 Apr 2015.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. ohsostupid

    ohsostupid Member

    Messages:
    11
    Joined:
    29 Apr 2015
    Hi,

    First post here and hoping for constructive advice.

    After being very stupid I am fully expecting to be prosecuted for fare evasion and tampering with a ticket in a moment of desperation.

    I've been interviewd by the TOC under caution and was told its pretty definite I'll be prosecuted BUT it may be by the TOC or it might be by the British Transport Police.

    3 questions,

    -Is there any difference to me who prosecutes me?
    Is the outcome the same? In other words a fine, the fare, costs and a criminal record.

    -Is my employer automatically told about it or is it just on my record for whenever anyone searches for it?

    - how long does it stay on my 'record' until it dissappears completely?

    Thanks for your help
     
  2. Puffing Devil

    Puffing Devil Member

    Messages:
    701
    Joined:
    11 Apr 2013
    -Is there any difference to me who prosecutes me? Is the outcome the same? In other words a fine, the fare, costs and a criminal record.


    No difference. It's the charges that will decide on the sentence. If the BTP prosecute, the costs requested will likely be smaller as it will be the CPS in court. However, the BTP charges would be more serious and a greater penalty would follow - you could be looking at a community penalty. It's hard to be specific without more information.

    -Is my employer automatically told about it or is it just on my record for whenever anyone searches for it?


    The court appearance is a matter of public record and may be picked up by the local press. There is no automatic reporting to your employer*. There is no criminal law that forces you to disclose - your contract of employment may be a different matter.

    *The exception is if financial penalties were collected through attachment of earnings - unlikely unless you do not meet repayment terms set by the court.

    - how long does it stay on my 'record' until it dissappears completely?

    That depends on the outcome of your case. Useful information here on spent convictions and disclosure: https://nationalcareersservice.direct.gov.uk/advice/planning/Pages/convictions.aspx
     
    Last edited: 1 May 2015
  3. DaleCooper

    DaleCooper Established Member

    Messages:
    2,776
    Joined:
    2 Mar 2015
    Location:
    No.664 - Next door to the Beast
    I think you'll need to provide a lot more detail about the offence before the experts on here can help you.
     
  4. DaveNewcastle

    DaveNewcastle Established Member Fares Advisor

    Messages:
    7,291
    Joined:
    21 Dec 2007
    Location:
    Newcastle (unless I'm out)
    I agree, and am replying just to emphasise your point about charges remaining unpaid becoming known to an employer (as there is a common belief that employers are not notified of the Conviction of one of their employees).

    I agree that if the Court's fines, VS, damages, awared costs and the new CCC are not received within 10 days of the due date printed on the Further Steps Notice issued by the Court, then an attachment of earnings payable to the Treasury via HMRC will be instructed through the employer's payroll. How employers deal with the knowledge of such an attachment of earnings will vary greatly. An attachment of earnings can arise from many causes.

    The outcome for you, if you are Not Guilty, will be the same whoever brings the prosecution against you.

    The outcome for you if you are Guilty will be affected slightly by whoever brings the prosecution to Court. The chances are that the BTP will claim higher costs in their preparation of the proceedings against you than most of the in-house Railway Company prosecutions teams. But the fine, the damages (unpaid fares), the Victim Surcharge and the new Criminal Courts Charge will be the same, regardless of who brings the prosecution.
     
    Last edited: 3 May 2015
  5. ohsostupid

    ohsostupid Member

    Messages:
    11
    Joined:
    29 Apr 2015
    Hi all,

    Prosecution by the Train Company or Brit Transport Police.

    (for fare evasion and altered ticket)

    Is prosecution always by a 'Notice of Intended Prosecution"?

    In other words do people always get a NIP to begin with. They can then plead guilty by post (after filling out all the NIP forms)?

    Thanks
     
  6. DaveNewcastle

    DaveNewcastle Established Member Fares Advisor

    Messages:
    7,291
    Joined:
    21 Dec 2007
    Location:
    Newcastle (unless I'm out)
    Probably the most significant document in the sequence of events will be the Summons.

    Once the Company (or the Police) have decided that there is enough evidence to support a Prosecution, and that it is in their interest (or the public interest) to pursue a Prosecution, then they will submit their claim forms to a Court. The Court will then issue a Summons to the Defendant (that's you) which summons you to appear in Court, and including the request for you to reply indicating whether you will plea 'guilty' or 'not guilty'.

    The Notice is just a letter inviting you to supply information about the incident which will assist in deciding whether or not there is an Offence which might be go forward to a prosecution.
     
    Last edited: 3 May 2015
  7. ohsostupid

    ohsostupid Member

    Messages:
    11
    Joined:
    29 Apr 2015
    Hi all,

    I am expecting a letter from TOC or BTP taking me to court for fare evasion and tampering with ticket.

    I have no idea when this may be, but I am concious I may be out of the country (on holiday) with wife and children in August and this may be when the court date is.

    If this is the case, can I ask for it to be postponed (or even brought forward) to when I am NOT on holiday?

    Thanks
     
  8. DaveNewcastle

    DaveNewcastle Established Member Fares Advisor

    Messages:
    7,291
    Joined:
    21 Dec 2007
    Location:
    Newcastle (unless I'm out)
    If you know which Court will be hearing the matter, and that a Summons has been requested, then 'yes', you should be able to agree a convenient date for the 3 parties, the Court, the Prosecutor and yourself.

    But as you seem not to be sure who is Prosecuting you (you mention BTP and 'TOC') then I'll guess that you don't know who is Prosecutng you, and presumably you don't know which Court will be hearing the matter.
    In that case, I'll assume that no Court has been asked to hear the matter yet. So all you need to do is contact the Prosecution, and arrange it with them.

    But as you also seem to be in some doubt about who is prosecuting you, then I don't think that there's much that you can do at present!
    Are you sure that you have committed an offence that will be prosecuted against you by someone? How do you know that without knowing who it is?
     
  9. ainsworth74

    ainsworth74 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

    Messages:
    17,191
    Joined:
    16 Nov 2009
    Location:
    Redcar
    I've merged two threads that appear to be related to the same issue together. So anyone wanting to reply to the last post by the OP may wish to read through the whole thread to refresh themselves on the details.
     
  10. DaveNewcastle

    DaveNewcastle Established Member Fares Advisor

    Messages:
    7,291
    Joined:
    21 Dec 2007
    Location:
    Newcastle (unless I'm out)
    Thanks.

    Now that I can see the additional information, specifically that you attended an interview, then it becomes much simpler. Write to the interviewing officer who you've already spoken to about the incident. You can follow it up with a phone call to be sure, but a written record is advisable.
     
  11. ohsostupid

    ohsostupid Member

    Messages:
    11
    Joined:
    29 Apr 2015
    Hi,

    Thanks for all your help.

    I think I will write a letter to the TOC guy that interviewed me to reiterate the case, emphasizing my stupidity/remorsefulness and highlighting other mitigating circumstances that I didnt think of 'off the cuff' at the interview.

    I can then also mention me being out of the country on xyz dates.

    If I understand it correctly, the next correspondence I will (most likely) receive will be the court summons - do I HAVE to attend? - and whether I attend or not, I will be fined, repay the fare, other extra bits to pay plus a criminal record. I am a first offender and have cooperated fully.

    It is touch and go whether I can pay all fines etc in one lump sum - how long do they usually give to pay? Otherwise I guess they go thru my income/expenditure breakdown and decide a payment plan for me.

    After all of that my next hurdle is that I work at a junior level in financial services, (but nothing to do with client money or advice). I hope to xxx they don't instantly fire me. If I cant work I cant pay the fines etc (hopefully the TOC/BTP and/or judge will appreciate that).

    Thanks
     
  12. najaB

    najaB Veteran Member

    Messages:
    15,409
    Joined:
    28 Aug 2011
    Location:
    Scotland
    Not if you intend to plead guilty, in fact if you do then there won't even be a court case.
    Your income will be taken into consideration when a fine, if any, is imposed. If you are truly unable to pay it on one go then I expect that an 'installment plan' of sorts would be arranged. This may involve garnishment of any wages or benefits that you receive.
    Depending on the law used to prosecute you there may be no record of the conviction, even if there is then it would be considered spent in a year.
     
  13. DaveNewcastle

    DaveNewcastle Established Member Fares Advisor

    Messages:
    7,291
    Joined:
    21 Dec 2007
    Location:
    Newcastle (unless I'm out)
    The Summons will give you the option to make your plea by post.
    If you plea guilty by post, then the job for the Court will be to assess the level of fine and costs applied for (plus the courts charges for Victim Surcharge and Criminal Conviction).
    If you plea Not Guilty, then a date will be set for a full hearing from both parties.
     
  14. ohsostupid

    ohsostupid Member

    Messages:
    11
    Joined:
    29 Apr 2015
    Thanks,

    You guys/gals are the best.

    I'll let you know what happens.
     
  15. Stigy

    Stigy Member

    Messages:
    788
    Joined:
    6 Nov 2009
    In my experience it's the other way around, BTP costs generally seem to be lower, however they have been known to recoup the cost in delay minutes as compensation to the railway if applicable.
     
  16. ohsostupid

    ohsostupid Member

    Messages:
    11
    Joined:
    29 Apr 2015
    Hi,

    Just an update. I received a call from the BTP asking me to come, voluntarily, to the station for an interview under caution. I can bring someone or a solicitor with me or can use their duty solicitor.

    I've already had the TOC interview under caution so I guess the BTP want to fill in any gaps.

    Anyway, I am convinced, sometime after this BTP interview, that I will then receive a further letter taking me to court - i intend to plead guilty - to be convicted under the Regulation of Railways Act for fare evasion and ticket tampering (which I guess will be a fraud charge).

    I work at a junior level in financial services and cannot afford to lose my job.

    I'm hoping they will realise that losing my job is not constructive and would hinder me repaying the fines etc.

    Will they have the option of convicting me under Byelaws so that it may lessen the chances of me losing my job but that I will still pay the same fines & costs?

    I don't mind paying all the fines, costs etc I just don't want to lose my job.
     
  17. ohsostupid

    ohsostupid Member

    Messages:
    11
    Joined:
    29 Apr 2015
    and come out the other side?

    Was there any impact to your work or any other aspect of life?

    Mod note: This post plus a few responses have been merged into the original query pertaining to the same incident.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: 23 Jun 2015
  18. Clip

    Clip Established Member

    Messages:
    8,540
    Joined:
    28 Jun 2010
    Most don't actually post back here once they have the info they require.
     
  19. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

    Messages:
    34,935
    Joined:
    6 Jun 2005
    Location:
    Yorkshire
    Most people who are threatened with prosecution and post here, seem to end up settling out of court. Also a significant number seem to be prosecuted under the Byelaws (despite ATOC advising TOCs not to do this), making them non-recordable offences.

    I doubt there will be many here who can actually answer this question!

    As for whether it would have an impact, it would very much depend on the job. Many jobs wouldn't require it to be disclosed.
     
  20. DaveNewcastle

    DaveNewcastle Established Member Fares Advisor

    Messages:
    7,291
    Joined:
    21 Dec 2007
    Location:
    Newcastle (unless I'm out)
    Yes. Several thousand ticketless passengers a year are convicted under the Act.
     
  21. furlong

    furlong Established Member

    Messages:
    1,321
    Joined:
    28 Mar 2013
    Location:
    Reading
    With the police involved, depending on the full set of circumstances, it is possible that you might be offered a (Conditional) Caution as an alternative to prosecution.

    This can work both ways. (E.g. It is especially important for society to be made aware of dishonesty involving people who hold positions of responsibility etc.)
     
  22. island

    island Established Member

    Messages:
    9,337
    Joined:
    30 Dec 2010
    Location:
    0036
    Anything is open to the BTP if you can be convincing enough.

    Bear in mind that your terms and conditions of employment may require simple or conditional cautions to be declared.
     
  23. cjmillsnun

    cjmillsnun Established Member

    Messages:
    2,604
    Joined:
    13 Feb 2011
    For most people in most lines of work, there will be little or no impact. It's only those lines of work that require an extended DBS check that this is likely to have an impact on.
     
  24. najaB

    najaB Veteran Member

    Messages:
    15,409
    Joined:
    28 Aug 2011
    Location:
    Scotland
    Including/or jobs that involve working with money (in cash or electronic form) since a RoRA prosecution could be seen as a crime of dishonesty.
     
  25. lejog

    lejog Established Member

    Messages:
    1,128
    Joined:
    27 Feb 2015
    If you receive a fine, your conviction becomes "spent" IIRC after 1 year. Before this it will show up on a basic DBS check available to all employers.

    After this you can quite legally respond to the question have you any convictions with the answer no. There is a seemingly long list of employers who can access more stringent DBS checks that will see spent convictions. However I would suggest few of these would care about a RoRa conviction.
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    Only employers on the Financial Services Register, ie regulated by the FCA can see spent convictions.
     
  26. Stigy

    Stigy Member

    Messages:
    788
    Joined:
    6 Nov 2009
    I'm genuinely interested as to whether that was 'from the horses mouth' so to speak,as I've not heard this myself before. I have heard that Byelaws might soon be a thing of the past, or at least ticketing ones where people are seemingly being prosecuted willy nilly (they're not, but I can see how this might appear the case sometimes...)
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    It depends how the question is put to an applicant. A lot of employers are very specific as to whether you have been convicted of an offence within a set time, or whether it's classed as spent. They usually ask for unspent ones to be declared by default, with certain employers asking for everything within 5-years for certain roles, or 'ever' within other roles.
     
  27. ohsostupid

    ohsostupid Member

    Messages:
    11
    Joined:
    29 Apr 2015
    Thanks for your replies.

    The situation now looks more likely to be a conviction under the Fraud Act.

    Does anyone know what detail is shown on a conviction - in other words when someone does a DBS check, will it just say "Fraud Conviction" or will it say "Fraud Conviction for using an altered train ticket"?

    And do the BTP usually advise a persons employer of the conviction (which happens to be a multi national financial servces firm - it just gets better :( )

    N.B I shall be going through my contract to check if I need to declare any convictions.

    P.S All I do at this company is print out reports that someone else has created.
     
  28. Hannes

    Hannes Member

    Messages:
    18
    Joined:
    17 Jan 2015
    Oh dear.

    I'm not an expert, but I very much suspect you need to be seeking out paid legal advice at this stage.

    Is there any chance you'd be willing to share details of exactly what you've been up to? That is, is a conviction of fraud highly likely?

    I could be VERY wrong on this, but I believe there are instances when you need to declare if you've been prosecuted for fraud, even if you weren't convicted.
     
  29. Mike395

    Mike395 Administrator Staff Member Administrator

    Messages:
    2,044
    Joined:
    23 May 2009
    Location:
    Bedford
    I have merged the two threads together that appear to pertain to the same incident, so people replying can see the context in which the question on the RoRA conviction is asked. :)
     
  30. Llanigraham

    Llanigraham Established Member

    Messages:
    2,842
    Joined:
    23 Mar 2013
    Location:
    Powys
    The listings I have seen show a general description of the Offence, so just Fraud.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page