Is there any eligibility for a refund/delay repay if your service is changed prior to departure?

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ivorytoast28

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Hello,

I'm mostly curious because I booked an advance LNER&Connections ticket from London to Bridlington changing at Doncaster.

This was scheduled to take 3hr25mins and include 1 stop at the time of booking, 1 month ago

However, Northern have since changed their schedule and this now requires 2 changes including an hour wait at Hull as Northern seem to no longer run a direct Sheffield-Bridlington service.

As such my journey will now be 1hr 3mins longer than the itinerary shown in LNER's "my bookings". They haven't informed me of this and if I hadn't searched on nationalrail I'd still be expecting to take a direct train on the day and as such my journey would be delayed by over an hour.

I contacted LNER as this means despite leaving london at 15:35 I will now be taking the last train of the day with just a 12 minute connection at doncaster. I simply asked for a refund so I could book via York and Scarborough instead to which they refused and said should I miss my connection they'd arrange a taxi from Doncaster to Bridlington, which to me seems insane for a ticket that cost me £11 they'll pay a taxi fare for a 62 mile journey, but I know that is the normal conditions.

But, essentially my journey is going to take 1hr and 3 minutes longer than advertised. If this happened due to delays on the day I would be entitled to delay repay? Is there nothing similar in this situation where the itinerary has changed but the customer is neither informed and even when noticed by myself ignored?

I'm asking mostly out of curiosity, I have all the time in the world and don't care if they connections work, but it seems strange they;d rather risk a massive taxi fee over a mildly delayed train than let me move to a service via york i said i'd pay extra for
 
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yorkie

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As you already bought your ticket, you have a choice:

1) depart at the booked time and claim Delay Repay
2) obtain a full refund if you choose not to travel
3) depart earlier in order to arrive on time

Which would you like to do?
 

ivorytoast28

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As you already bought your ticket, you have a choice:

1) depart at the booked time and claim Delay Repay
2) obtain a full refund if you choose not to travel
3) depart earlier in order to arrive on time

Which would you like to do?
1) Would I be eligible for this if no trains are delayed? i.e I arrive 1hr 3 later than the original itinerary , which I already know is the case but haven't been informed about, I guess this is my question can delay repay be claimed on an Advance&connections ticket where the "connection" itinerary is different on the day by over an hour to what it was when booked?
2) LNER have just told me via twitter I am not eligible for a refund. Is that incorrect? I do wonder whether I should be
3) Not possible, The advance ticket is from London to Bridlington and is an LNER&connections. I will be at Kings cross in plenty of time but the advance ticket it 15:35 from Kings cross. The last train is now 12 mins after arriving into Doncaster

Honestly, 2 is what I want as I would rather the piece of mind by rebooking to earlier in the day, but LNER are currently saying I cannot cancel
 
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yorkie

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1) Would I be eligible for this if no trains are delayed? i.e I arrive 1hr 3 later than the original itinerary , which I already know is the case but haven't been informed about, I guess this is my question can delay repay be claimed on an Advance&connections ticket where the "connection" itinerary is different on the day by over an hour to what it was when booked?
If your journey is delayed you can claim

What is less clear is if you depart early, can you still claim? If the company does not state that you can, I would assume that you can't; so only do this if the arrival time is crucial and you do not mind departing early and not being compensated for the inconvenience
2) LNER have just told me via twitter I am not eligible for a refund. Is that incorrect? I do wonder whether I should be
LNER are incorrect.

3) Not possible, The advance ticket is from London to Bridlington and is an LNER&connections. I will be at Kings cross in plenty of time but the advance ticket it 15:35 from Kings cross. The last train is now 12 mins after arriving into Doncaster
I would say that you are contracted to depart at 1535 and you are also contracted to arrive at the time you booked; it is therefore your contractual entitlement to do either of these things and it is your choice which you do.

Honestly, 2 is what I want as I would rather the piece of mind by rebooking to earlier in the day, but LNER are currently saying I cannot cancel
They are wrong; it's a fundamental part of the Conditions of Travel.

30.1. If the train you intended to use is cancelled, delayed, or your reservation will not be honoured, and you decide not to travel, you may return the unused Ticket to the original retailer or Train Company from whom it was purchased, where you will be given a full refund with no administration fee being charged.

This Condition applies to all Tickets, including Tickets (such as Advance Tickets) that are otherwise non-refundable, and also applies if you have begun your journey but are unable to complete it due to delay or cancellations and return to your point of origin

When is the journey and how much have you paid?
 

ivorytoast28

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OP said it was £11
It should have been £16.85 as an advance single with 16-25 railcard, though I used £5 credit offer from LNER perks to pay for it. So yeah it wasn't a lot, it just got me curious with the itinerary change as to what the rights of the passenger were
 

yorkie

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I couldn't find your tweet; I would have directed LNER to this thread if I had found it.
 

ivorytoast28

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If your journey is delayed you can claim

What is less clear is if you depart early, can you still claim? If the company does not state that you can, I would assume that you can't; so only do this if the arrival time is crucial and you do not mind departing early and not being compensated for the inconvenience

LNER are incorrect.


I would say that you are contracted to depart at 1535 and you are also contracted to arrive at the time you booked; it is therefore your contractual entitlement to do either of these things and it is your choice which you do.


They are wrong; it's a fundamental part of the Conditions of Travel.



When is the journey and how much have you paid?
So in the first and 3rd point you are essentially saying i should attempt to board an earlier LNER train than I have been booked onto?

I couldn't find your tweet; I would have directed LNER to this thread if I had found it.
I messaged them personally, sorry, i'll send them the link here if that is appropriate
 

yorkie

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If you can't get a replacement ticket for the same price, don't get a refund if you still want to make the journey.

If you don't mind the possibility of being delayed and getting a taxi, just get your booked train from KGX

If you really want to arrive time, have a word with the Train Manager and explain that you need to get the earlier train in order to avoid a delay; contractually I believe they are obliged to let you do this (though that does not guarantee they will; if they refuse you then have the option of contesting an additional fare, which may be a lot of hassle)



I messaged them personally, sorry, i'll send them the link here if that is appropriate
You could do , or send them straight to https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/National Rail Conditions of Travel.pdf (condition 30) but please only do this if you won't be out of pocket.

On a separate note, this incident does raise the importance of:

1) Booking a journey in advance, so that the contract is formed, if at all possible
2) Booking through a retailer you trust to give you good service (and be able to escalate if you do not; for example the owners of the website/retailer I use can be contacted through this forum if necessary)
3) For a multi-leg journey which may involve multiple tickets, obtain all the ticket(s) in one transaction, from one retailer, with an itinerary clearly showing the full journey

I've mentioned this a few times to people, and this is a perfect example as to why!
 
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ivorytoast28

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If you can't get a replacement ticket for the same price, don't get a refund if you still want to make the journey.

If you don't mind the possibility of being delayed and getting a taxi, just get your booked train from KGX

If you really want to arrive time, have a word with the Train Manager and explain that you need to get the earlier train in order to avoid a delay; contractually I believe they are obliged to let you do this (though that does not guarantee they will; if they refuse you then have the option of contesting an additional fare, which may be a lot of hassle)




You could do , or send them straight to https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/National Rail Conditions of Travel.pdf (condition 30) but please only do this if you won't be out of pocket.

On a separate note, this incident does raise the importance of:

1) Booking a journey in advance, so that the contract is formed, if at all possible
2) Booking through a retailer you trust to give you good service (and be able to escalate if you do not; for example the owners of the website/retailer I use can be contacted through this forum if necessary)
3) For a multi-leg journey which may involve multiple tickets, obtain all the ticket(s) in one transaction, from one retailer, with an itinerary clearly showing the full journey

I've mentioned this a few times to people, and this is a perfect example as to why!
Thank you
And yes I agree, I guess this situation would rarely occur and is only because of covid and Northern releasing future timetables very late. The LNER timetable was about a month ahead, I've no idea when northern finally did, I only checked today. And honestly I trust LNER and their service always seems excellent, this is honestly more northern's fault than theirs.
Yeah, I'll see what happens, I'm not so bothered and would rather pay a little extra to know I've plenty of time to travel by train foremost rather than taxi or whatnot but they've guaranteed I won't be stranded which is the obvious initial concern but I'll still question them further as to why they would deny a refund,
Thanks for all your help and answers :)

If you can't get a replacement ticket for the same price, don't get a refund if you still want to make the journey.

If you don't mind the possibility of being delayed and getting a taxi, just get your booked train from KGX

If you really want to arrive time, have a word with the Train Manager and explain that you need to get the earlier train in order to avoid a delay; contractually I believe they are obliged to let you do this (though that does not guarantee they will; if they refuse you then have the option of contesting an additional fare, which may be a lot of hassle)




You could do , or send them straight to https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/National Rail Conditions of Travel.pdf (condition 30) but please only do this if you won't be out of pocket.

On a separate note, this incident does raise the importance of:

1) Booking a journey in advance, so that the contract is formed, if at all possible
2) Booking through a retailer you trust to give you good service (and be able to escalate if you do not; for example the owners of the website/retailer I use can be contacted through this forum if necessary)
3) For a multi-leg journey which may involve multiple tickets, obtain all the ticket(s) in one transaction, from one retailer, with an itinerary clearly showing the full journey

I've mentioned this a few times to people, and this is a perfect example as to why!
They just responded saying:
"Hi William, Delay Repay would apply if your service was delayed unexpectedly on the day. However, as this is a pre-planned change to the timetable which you've been notified of, I'm afraid it wouldn't be possible to claim in these circumstances. ^JC"

To which I informed them that they did not notify me and linked them to the national rail terms and conditions. I did link them to this thread but i do not know if they have seen it
 
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hkstudent

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Thank you
And yes I agree, I guess this situation would rarely occur and is only because of covid and Northern releasing future timetables very late. The LNER timetable was about a month ahead, I've no idea when northern finally did, I only checked today. And honestly I trust LNER and their service always seems excellent, this is honestly more northern's fault than theirs.
Yeah, I'll see what happens, I'm not so bothered and would rather pay a little extra to know I've plenty of time to travel by train foremost rather than taxi or whatnot but they've guaranteed I won't be stranded which is the obvious initial concern but I'll still question them further as to why they would deny a refund,
Thanks for all your help and answers :)


They just responded saying:
"Hi William, Delay Repay would apply if your service was delayed unexpectedly on the day. However, as this is a pre-planned change to the timetable which you've been notified of, I'm afraid it wouldn't be possible to claim in these circumstances. ^JC"

To which I informed them that they did not notify me and linked them to the national rail terms and conditions. I did link them to this thread but i do not know if they have seen it
For OP's info,
the train from Hull to Bridlington departs in 1818 and 1918, where OP's Doncaster to Hull train arrives in 1815.
If OP is fast enough (including getting to the front carriage as possible), OP maybe able to catch the 1818 service.
 

ivorytoast28

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For OP's info,
the train from Hull to Bridlington departs in 1818 and 1918, where OP's Doncaster to Hull train arrives in 1815.
If OP is fast enough (including getting to the front carriage as possible), OP maybe able to catch the 1818 service.
Thank you, I just looked on realtimetrains and yeah I suppose that gives a little more certainty and makes sense as it was a through service(ironically I've often questioned why northern had such weird through services which could be easily delayed but here I am) but yeah, I've never been to hull before but it looks like platform 2 to 4 so I'll search the layouts before.
But my concern isn't the change at hull so much but the LNER one being delayed at doncaster. Under that situation I would be relying on doing that 3 minute change at hull the next hour or taking their taxi (or more logically still catching the next train to york and going via scarborough but i'd rather book that in advance ofc)
I was mostly curious as to the "before the day alteration terms" tbh and it seems LNER disagree with the forum as to the eligibility of a refund for a change in itinerary that delays the passenger by over an hour. LNER seem to think it's perfectly fine to delay a passenger without compensation from their response
 

Watershed

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There is a big problem with the rail industry's attitude to timetable changes after someone has bought their ticket. A lot of companies seem to think that there is no need to notify or compensate people affected by late notice changes.

An Advance ticket inherently only entitles you to travel on the booked services, so it is ludicrous to say you cannot obtain a refund if one of your services has been cancelled (through a late notice timetable change or otherwise). And yet that is what LNER appear to be suggesting here, with a straight face.

The issue of delay compensation is more of a grey area - most train companies' Passenger's Charters state that they will not pay Delay Repay for 'planned' changes. However, the NRCoT sets out a minimum level of compensation which is payable in all circumstances - see condition 33.4:
A Train Company may not be obliged to pay compensation under this Condition if the cause of the delay was entirely outside the rail industry’s control. Each Train Company’s Passenger’s Charter will set out any exclusions that applies to such claims in respect of their services. However, you are entitled to compensation if the delay was 60 minutes or longer, regardless of fault.
This would be for a minimum of 50% of the price of the ticket.

The wording of the phrase "any exclusions that applies to such claims" also implies that Passenger's Charters can only exclude the enhanced Delay Repay level of compensation (which would be 100% for a 1 hour delay) for delays that are entirely outside the rail industry's control. A planned timetable change clearly doesn't fall into that category.

Anyway, either way I think you are likely to have a fight on your hands, even to get the NRCoT minimum level of compensation.
 

yorkie

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Thank you
And yes I agree, I guess this situation would rarely occur and is only because of covid and Northern releasing future timetables very late. The LNER timetable was about a month ahead, I've no idea when northern finally did, I only checked today. And honestly I trust LNER and their service always seems excellent, this is honestly more northern's fault than theirs.
Yeah, I'll see what happens, I'm not so bothered and would rather pay a little extra to know I've plenty of time to travel by train foremost rather than taxi or whatnot but they've guaranteed I won't be stranded which is the obvious initial concern but I'll still question them further as to why they would deny a refund,
Thanks for all your help and answers :)


They just responded saying:
"Hi William, Delay Repay would apply if your service was delayed unexpectedly on the day. However, as this is a pre-planned change to the timetable which you've been notified of, I'm afraid it wouldn't be possible to claim in these circumstances. ^JC"

To which I informed them that they did not notify me and linked them to the national rail terms and conditions. I did link them to this thread but i do not know if they have seen it
Is that LNER?

Ignore them; their tweeters are not all knowledgeable. It's not like asking here for advice!

But a delay repay claim would be with Northern anyway ( A refund claim would be with LNER as the retailer)

I advise not buying from LNER in future.
 

Haywain

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It should have been £16.85 as an advance single with 16-25 railcard, though I used £5 credit offer from LNER perks to pay for it.
So the price of the ticket was £16.85. The £5 Perks credit is your money to spend on tickets, and does not alter the ticket price. Any refund would be for £16.85 and Delay Repay would be based on the same fare.

And if you desire a refund, apply for it rather than taking the social media team's comments as being the final word on the matter.
 

Llandudno

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Is that LNER?

Ignore them; their tweeters are not all knowledgeable. It's not like asking here for advice!

But a delay repay claim would be with Northern anyway ( A refund claim would be with LNER as the retailer)

I advise not buying from LNER in future.
Which website would you recommend for buying rail tickets?
 

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If you claim delay repay from Northern you get the option of free tickets, these can be a lot more valuable than the fare refunded in this case
 

hkstudent

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If you claim delay repay from Northern you get the option of free tickets, these can be a lot more valuable than the fare refunded in this case
That really depends on whether OP is based in the North.
And also, many Northern advances are pretty cheap anyway.
 

yorkie

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Which website would you recommend for buying rail tickets?
I might be considered biased as I know the people involved, but I buy most of my tickets from Trainsplit, for several reasons:

1) if any problems occur and I need to escalate a matter, the owners of Trainsplit and Raileasy are on this forum (the same applies to some other retailers, notably Assertis for example)
2) it has a seat selector that works with all applicable companies
3) it might find a cheaper fare than the through fare
4) i prefer to have my bookings in one place
5) I like the way that a combination of tickets is issued as one handy PDF; in the case the OP has one ticket but for a journey if this nature it would often be cheaper to split, and I like the convenience of one PDF for the whole journey.
If you claim delay repay from Northern you get the option of free tickets, these can be a lot more valuable than the fare refunded in this case
This is true however if the delay is over 60 minutes, a fully flexible return could be deemed quite valuable.

Although I've often been able to take advantage of £8 Family & Friend day tickets I would be prepared to pay around £10 to £16 for a return, and anyone who isn't fortunate to be offered the chance to get the £8 fares may well see a value greater than £20.

It's worth mentioning the option to the original poster as everyone's circumstances are unique.
 

zero

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The £5 Perks credit is your money to spend on tickets, and does not alter the ticket price. Any refund would be for £16.85 and Delay Repay would be based on the same fare.

LNER would be within their rights to refund £11.85 to your card and £5 to your Perks account
 

yorkie

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LNER would be within their rights to refund £11.85 to your card and £5 to your Perks account
In theory yes.

But in practice that might be tricky.

However if @Haywain had a view on what is likely to happen in this scenario, I would be prepared to take a bet that he is correct. ;)
 

robbeech

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There is a big problem with the rail industry's attitude to timetable changes after someone has bought their ticket. A lot of companies seem to think that there is no need to notify or compensate people affected by late notice changes.
I think there's a little bit of a bandwagon here too. One of the less passenger focussed operators such as Northern have been playing this card for years now. It's unlawful, if for no other reason that it isn't documented, but they get away with it because there is no real world regulation on it. Other operators see this behaviour, and they want a piece of it as its profitable, so they jump on board, and before you know it, it's an unwritten rule. They're still not allowed to do it, but there is absolutely nothing the passenger can do and nobody they can refer it to.

As far as notifying goes, again, it's not worth it for them. They do not gain anything by notifying passengers of a timetable change because they have these unwritten rules about refunds and DR not being applicable in these instances even though it could be automated so very few operators do this, although i believe LNER are generally quite good at this.

Is that LNER?

Ignore them; their tweeters are not all knowledgeable. It's not like asking here for advice!
I think that is all well and good, but it isn't the forum that is refunding them, and its entirely possible (from personal experience) that you'll get an outright rejection from them. This will almost certainly be rectified with a reply and further explanation but that relies on the passenger knowing the rules that the staff don't know which is convenient for the operator as most don't.
 

Haywain

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In theory yes.

But in practice that might be tricky.

However if @Haywain had a view on what is likely to happen in this scenario, I would be prepared to take a bet that he is correct.
You are probably a touch more confident than I am! However, recent experience with other businesses is that refunds are being made to the original source and this is what I would expect LNER to do, so the £5 would revert to being a Perks credit or eVoucher with similar usage restrictions.
 

istead

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Sorry to hijack this but I have a similar related issue. Booked advances (Redhill to Nafferton and back) from Hull Trains with following itinerary (actual seats reserved on Stevenage - Doncaster leg outbound and Doncaster - Kings Cross leg return):

Outbound 15/04/21:
Redhill 16:29 17:44 Stevenage
Stevenage 17:48 19:15 Doncaster
Doncaster 19:24 20:52 Nafferton

Return 19/04/21:
Nafferton 11:46 13:19 Doncaster
Doncaster 13:48 15:32 Kings Cross
St Pancras 16:05 16:57 Redhill

Total cost £114.10 (2x adults with Two Together Railcard).

Issue is the direct Doncaster-Nafferton (and reverse) trains don't exist at present as per the timetable from 08/03 here. However Hull Trains still sold the above itinerary through their journey planner, and no communications were issued to me regarding the the fact these trains were not actually running. Tickets booked 25/03.

As a consequence, my outbound journey was delayed by over 30 minutes and had to use a taxi (own expense) from Hull to Nafferton (the 19:24 from Doncaster ran as far as Hull), and on the return have replanned itinerary to now arrive 1hr later (it will be even later now due to additional delays today from Doncaster - Kings Cross!).

Hull Trains already agreed to pay the taxi fare (their mistake to sell me a ticket and issue an itinerary that doesn't exist), after Hull station TPE staff were very unhelpful on Friday evening (15th April).

My questions are therefore:
  1. In addition to the taxi fare, can I claim delay repay on the outbound and return legs, as I've suffered delays exceeding 30 and 60 minutes respectively?
  2. If so, who from? I suspect Northern will reject on basis that their published timetable contradicts what Hull Trains sold.
  3. Are Hull Trains liable for delay repay, even though they are not the TOC which has 'caused' the disruption to physical train services? Although, they are the TOC who ultimately disrupted my journey.
 

Watershed

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1) You can definitely claim some level of delay compensation, as defined in condition 33.4 of the National Rail Conditions of Travel (see my post above). This entitles you to compensation of 50% of the value of the relevant portion of your ticket, for a delay of 60+ minutes. The NRCoT do not set out any exceptions to this - you are entitled to the compensation regardless of the cause or circumstances of the delay.

Like most operators, Northern has a Delay Repay scheme which sets a lower delay threshold (15 mins) for being compensated, and which is generally more generous than the NRCoT minimum (e.g. a 1 hour delay entitles you to 100% rather than 50% of the relevant portion of your ticket).

However, like several other operators Northern also has an exclusion to their Delay Repay scheme, which states that they will not pay compensation under it for timetable changes which occur before the date of travel:
If we have published an alternative timetable for the journey you made, we will compensate you based on that. An alternative timetable means a new timetable which we upload to industry systems before 10pm on the day before you travel.

Since the revised timetable was presumably published by 10pm before the date of travel, they will probably refuse to pay compensation under their Delay Repay scheme. You would still be entitled to claim compensation under NRCoT 33.4.

It is questionable whether or not the above exclusion is really binding, however you would likely have to take Northern to Court to get anything out of them beyond the NRCoT minimum. That said, with the amount at stake, taking it further may still be worthwhile.

2) It sounds like there were not any issues with Hull Trains' train services, correct? If so, their position in this is purely as the ticket retailer, i.e. as an agent of Northern.

Therefore it is Northern you need to claim again your delay compensation from, for failing to operate trains in accordance with the timetable that was promulgated to you on their behalf when you booked.

3) They are a TOC and they sell tickets, but in this case they were not 'at fault' at all - they were merely showing you what the industry timetable data showed when you booked. Really, this is down to Northern for allowing tickets (particularly Advance tickets) to be bought on their services when they haven't yet decided what timetable they're going to run.

As an aside, you should raise a complaint with TPE if their station staff refused to organise alternative transport for you. NRCoT 28.2 states that:
Where disruption prevents you from completing the journey for which your Ticket is valid and is being used, any Train Company will, where it reasonably can, provide you with alternative means of travel to your destination, or if necessary, provide overnight accommodation for you.

The fact that were not travelling with TPE is irrelevant - the above clause applies to any TOC. So if the staff could reasonably have provided you with a taxi, they should have done so.
 
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istead

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It sounds like there were not any issues with Hull Trains' train services, correct?
Yes, that is correct. Very helpful advice, thanks. The Hull station manager said the booked train (19:24 from Doncaster on 15/04) "hadn't been running for months", so I suspect it's ultimately a data processing issue by one or more parties (including at least Hull Trains and/or Northern).

If we have published an alternative timetable for the journey you made, we will compensate you based on that. An alternative timetable means a new timetable which we upload to industry systems before 10pm on the day before you travel.
Re the Northern exemption, the tricky bit is, under the revised timetable, it was not actually possible to take a connecting service from Doncaster to complete my journey that day (no more trains North from Hull towards Bridlington). So I guess the delay can be argued to last until the first service the next morning which allowed the connecting leg to be completed (especially given Northern didn't offer me a taxi when I called on whilst travelling on Friday)?
 

Watershed

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Yes, that is correct. Very helpful advice, thanks. The Hull station manager said the booked train (19:24 from Doncaster on 15/04) "hadn't been running for months", so I suspect it's ultimately a data processing issue by one or more parties (including at least Hull Trains and/or Northern).
The issue is to do with the way that the industry handles the current reduced timetables. The "full" service from the December 2020 timetable change is the "default" position shown on journey planners etc. unless and until it is altered.

That alteration only happens when Northern's reduced timetable (which essentially involves cancelling everything and adding back in the services they're still running) has been processed and published by Network Rail. For some weeks over recent months that has been happening as little as 2 or 3 days in advance.

I would say the fault here lies predominantly with Northern - they could avoid this situation by marking all their services as "reservations compulsory" in the timetable data, and then only releasing "reservations" (it doesn't need to be real reservations, it could just as well be nominal coach * seat ** ones) when the timetable is confirmed. That would prevent journey planners from showing services which Northern haven't yet decided if they want to run.

Re the Northern exemption, the tricky bit is, under the revised timetable, it was not actually possible to take a connecting service from Doncaster to complete my journey that day (no more trains North from Hull towards Bridlington)
Indeed, and when you consider the fact that you were (presumably) travelling on an Advance it makes a bit of a mockery of their exclusion. In these circumstances, is the exclusion to be interpreted as meaning that you can't travel on an earlier train (as you're on an Advance), and yet if you leave as booked, you face guaranteed delay and inconvenience but will not be compensated for it?

I would love to be pleasantly surprised by them responding that they'll compensate you fairly (which would be 50% on the outward journey and 100% on the return), but I won't be holding my breath.

So I guess the delay can be argued to last until the first service the next morning which allowed the connecting leg to be completed (especially given Northern didn't offer me a taxi when I called on whilst travelling on Friday)?
Delays are calculated by reference to the actual arrival time, even if you travel by alternative transport.

As I say, there is a big attitude problem in the industry. Even with the 'herding cats' difficulties of having hundreds of different retailers, there are still mechanisms out there which could be engaged to prevent these kinds of situations from arising. But it's simpler just to inconvenience customers that have the temerity to book ahead (in accordance with industry messaging!).
 

Haywain

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this is down to Northern for allowing tickets (particularly Advance tickets) to be bought on their services when they haven't yet decided what timetable they're going to run.
Advance tickets are completely irrelevant to this. The services in question are not reservable and therefore any ticket could be purchased with these trains on the itinerary. The problem is with Northern failing to cancel the trains sufficiently ahead of time - I suspect that having seen similar problems with East Midlands Railway they are only making these changes one week at a time and at relatively short notice (no more than 7 days in cases I have seen). Making local trains reservable, as you suggest, is not an appropriate solution and would only serve to reduce availability of tickets for more people than it would help.
 

Watershed

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Advance tickets are completely irrelevant to this. The services in question are not reservable and therefore any ticket could be purchased with these trains on the itinerary. The problem is with Northern failing to cancel the trains sufficiently ahead of time - I suspect that having seen similar problems with East Midlands Railway they are only making these changes one week at a time and at relatively short notice (no more than 7 days in cases I have seen). Making local trains reservable, as you suggest, is not an appropriate solution and would only serve to reduce availability of tickets for more people than it would help.
As I allude to, this could be solved if they made their services reservation compulsory - only in the LTP data of course - and then kept reservations closed until services are confirmed. The confirmed services could overwrite the reservations header back to 'optional' again .This wouldn't involve quietly moving to the airline model of compulsory pre-booking, unlike ahem some TOCs.

The alternative would be, as you say, to cancel the services they know won't be running ahead of time.

Advance tickets ordinarily force the holder to travel on the booked service(s). That should be binding on both sides. It is patently unreasonable for Northern to allow Advances to be booked on services that they know won't be running, causing delays for which they have no intention of compensating.

These are hardly insoluble issues, it's just that there is no incentive to get it right.
 
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istead

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Well an update - Northern claim they will not pay out because the outbound journey was 'not made in full by train' - due to final leg being via taxi. I would have thought the TOC is liable for the taxi fare and the delay repay if they cause the delay. Lo and behold, it is indeed in their website T&Cs, but feels very unfair...
 
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