Is there too much reliance on technology when it comes to rail fares?

[LAX54]

Is there too much reliance on technology nowadays, that we get to the point where we do not even have £2.50 in a pocket ? plus mobile phones are not 100% reliable, I would not risk everything on paying by contactless!

 

[6Gman]

Is there too much reliance on technology nowadays, that we get to the point where we do not even have £2.50 in a pocket ? plus mobile phones are not 100% reliable, I would not risk everything on paying by contactless!

For my train ticket today I had the options of cash or two debit cards or a credit card. I don't think that is unusual.

 

[yorkie]

I have split the above posts from Provisional prosecution southeastern railway; threads in D&P asking for advice are not the best place for more general discussions about fares matters and do need to be posted in their own thread.

 

[yorkie]

Is there too much reliance on technology nowadays, that we get to the point where we do not even have £2.50 in a pocket ?

I often don't take cash out with me, because it's a pain to withdraw, keep track of it, faff about with change, and avoid losing it.

Almost anywhere accepts card payments these days and card payments are an acceptable payment method of payment for paper fares, while contactless works fine in the London PAYG area.

That said I would certainly not rely on a mobile phone app for payment.

 

[RJ]

I'm generally cashless - I tend to carry a debit card, a Curve card and whichever Amex i'm hammering to reach a points bonus. If foraying into the countryside or to a restaurant I might make a point of withdrawing some cash when I have the chance.

As a sales assistant, I'm surprised at how many people are now fully reliant on their Apple Pay technology. I regularly get people who have booked tickets online coming to my window, because they can't use Apple Pay to collect from the machines. As they believe they don't need to carry a physical card, they can't withdraw cash to buy a new ticket either. I'm very interested in "fintech" and payment technologies - I have Android/Apple/Google/Samsung Pay myself, but still think it's unwise to not carry a debit card just in case.

I'm increasingly seeing TOD bookings under an anonymous alias which usually happens where Paypal is used as a payment method. However a lot of people wanting to collect these never seem to carry any cards or identification whatsoever, which are necessary when tickets are booked with old fashioned payment methods!

 

[The Ham]

Technology isn't necessary a bad thing, but sometimes the way it's implemented is the problem.

For instance to collect train tickets you need your credit card, which I've no problem with the problem is that in addition you've also got to put in a long confirmation number (sometimes over 12 digits). This probably makes the collection of tickets more secure than the purchase of tickets from the same machine!

I would have thought, like some use, that a shorter code (8 digits) is still suitable and could even be shortened to 6 digits without too much of a problem.

The benefit of the shorter codes is that it speeds up transaction times and reduces frustration when the screens aren't picking up the entering of the digits very well.

 

[Rover]

I have split the above posts from Provisional prosecution southeastern railway; threads in D&P

Yorkie, this link gives an "error" page.

 

[Panda]

Times are changing. Cash is no longer welcome on buses in London. My buses in the countryside all accept contactless now and the sandwich shop at work is completely cashless. In my world, if I had cash and no cards/phones with me I would have a much harder time than having no cash and only cards/devices.

 

[GusB]

I would not solely rely on technology. A week or two ago I was in my local Costcutter and when I attempted to use Android pay it simply didn't work, even though it had gone through before. I had to fall back on to the same debit card that my Android Pay was linked to, otherwise I would have left the shop empty-handed.

Having been subject to a mugging some years ago, I do not like carrying lots of cash with me, but I keep at least a tenner in my wallet, and if I'm going for a night out in my local I need to withdraw sufficient cash for the night because they won't put through any card transactions lower than £10.

I don't think we're ready to be a cashless society just yet. Maybe it has a lot to do with where you live, but small places such as the one where I live have only just come round to the idea of electronic transactions.

 

[alistairlees]

Technology isn't necessary a bad thing, but sometimes the way it's implemented is the problem.

For instance to collect train tickets you need your credit card, which I've no problem with the problem is that in addition you've also got to put in a long confirmation number (sometimes over 12 digits). This probably makes the collection of tickets more secure than the purchase of tickets from the same machine!

I would have thought, like some use, that a shorter code (8 digits) is still suitable and could even be shortened to 6 digits without too much of a problem.

The benefit of the shorter codes is that it speeds up transaction times and reduces frustration when the screens aren't picking up the entering of the digits very well.

Good news then. It's always been eight characters (letters or numbers) for Ticket on Departure collection everywhere. It's never been 12 or more.

Although I haven't done the maths, I would expect that six characters is not enough to guarantee uniqueness.

 

[robbeech]

Although I haven't done the maths, I would expect that six characters is not enough to guarantee uniqueness.

It's probably enough to guarantee uniqueness for a particular credit or debit card though.

 

[The Ham]

Good news then. It's always been eight characters (letters or numbers) for Ticket on Departure collection everywhere. It's never been 12 or more.

Although I haven't done the maths, I would expect that six characters is not enough to guarantee uniqueness.

I'm sure I've had longer that 8 digits in the past.

What does it matter that it's unique if you have to have your credit card as well (which is unique)?

 

[alistairlees]

It's probably enough to guarantee uniqueness for a particular credit or debit card though.

But there are many occasions when the collection will be set to "collect with any card" - for business customers, for example. A ToD collection can also be changed to collect with any card after it has been set to be collected only with a particular card; reasons being things like lost card, card expired, extenuating circumstances etc. So the collection reference needs to be independent of any card value.

 

[sheff1]

I often don't take cash out with me, because it's a pain to withdraw, keep track of it, faff about with change, and avoid losing it.

Almost anywhere accepts card payments these days ...

I always have cash and for good reason ... a brief walk through the local shopping centre found seven different outlets displaying notices stating that they do not accept card payments - a newsagents, grocery, bakery, nail bar, chip shop, Chinese takeaway and sit-in Indian restaurant. My butchers do not accept card payments for less than £10. It would not surprise me if other locations had similar notices once you were inside. With the exception of the nail bar, all the businesses are long standing and seem to have no problems attracting customers.

When I do the weekly supermarket shop I pay by card, but it is very common to see people in the queue paying substantial amounts (over £100 at times) in cash. Reports of the demise of cash seem rather wide of the mark, around here at least.

Returning to rail tickets, the impression I get is that the majority of people paying on board the local services use cash although, to be fair, there does seem to be an increase in the numbers of pre-purchasers displaying a ticket on a phone.

Supertram do not accept card payment on board at all (and no tickets are on sale at tram stops).

 

[cjp]

It's probably enough to guarantee uniqueness for a particular credit or debit card though.

Easily as the bank all use four digits PINs

 

[cjp]

As for payments I use cash almost all the time although of course for London I do have a card.
It is interesting that it seems like an Oyster Card is going to become rarer as contactless payment is promoted - which is quite interesting to compare with Hong Kong's Octopus Card where in many outlets the balance can be spent like cash and their use is widespread.

 

[pdq]

Horses for courses...
My phone has got me home a couple of times, when I've realised on the way to the station that my wallet containing my M-Card was on my desk at work. Rather than go back for it - and miss my hourly train - I've been able to buy a ticket at the ticket office using Android Pay (now Google Pay).
But, as noted by sheff1, there are still quite a lot of places that don't accept cards - some of them quite surprising. It is clearly the case for many businesses that the cost and inconvenience of cash handling isn't offset by the cost of card processing.

 

[Starmill]

I frequently visit places which don't take any card payments. These include a great many chip shops and Indian restaurants, some bars or pubs, independent cafés and coffee sellers, Sheffield Supertram, a significant number of local buses, corner shops / newsagents and of course taxis. My local shop still tries to (illegally, now) charge fees to customers paying by card. I have never paid by card there. I have been to a number of businesses that impose minimum payments by card in the past week - always using cash. I always leave tips in restraunts in cash. One typically cannot buy a Big Issue, leave a donation at a free attraction (although I'm aware the Natural History Museum now do encourage £5 donations by contactless), or use a PERTIS without cash. I will usually have some cash with me.

When I'm buying a ticket on the train, or at my destination, I'm accustomed to paying cash because of the perceived unreliability of the portable card readers. This was in the past a very serious problem on Virgin Trains for card payments in their shop. It was often cash only. This has improved as they now accept contactless.

 

[AlterEgo]

Easily as the bank all use four digits PINs

Yes but there will always be only one PIN for each card, rather than perhaps a hundred in a year.

 

[alistairlees]

Easily as the bank all use four digits PINs

Not sure what this has to do with anything? TVMs have no idea what a PIN is, and no way of collecting it. A PIN is for an ATM, when withdrawing cash.

My earlier point stands: it is possible to collect with any card, so the collection reference needs to be long enough to be unique by itself, without reference to anything else. And eight characters seems to achieve that.

 

[Dent]

My earlier point stands: it is possible to collect with any card, so the collection reference needs to be long enough to be unique by itself, without reference to anything else. And eight characters seems to achieve that.

What is the logic behind requiring a card but accepting any card? If any card will do then it is obviously not being used to verify anything, so what is the point of requiring a card at all?

 

[Dai Corner]

What is the logic behind requiring a card but accepting any card? If any card will do then it is obviously not being used to verify anything, so what is the point of requiring a card at all?

Don't know, but I have heard that it doesn't even need to be a credit or debit card and things like Tesco Clubcards will work.

 

[alistairlees]

What is the logic behind requiring a card but accepting any card? If any card will do then it is obviously not being used to verify anything, so what is the point of requiring a card at all?

A specific card is used to prevent fraud; the person collecting the tickets must possess a card with the same last 4 digits as the card which the purchase was made with, on most consumer websites (such as TOC or a third party). It's up to the retailer to decide on approach.

The same fraud issues don't exist with B2B; in fact, because B2B sites often use a stored company credit card that is not possessed by the traveller, it's necessary to allow any card to collect.

 

[alistairlees]

Don't know, but I have heard that it doesn't even need to be a credit or debit card and things like Tesco Clubcards will work.

Only if it's set to "any card collection"; otherwise, no, they won't.

 

[Dent]

A specific card is used to prevent fraud; the person collecting the tickets must possess a card with the same last 4 digits as the card which the purchase was made with, on most consumer websites (such as TOC or a third party). It's up to the retailer to decide on approach.

The same fraud issues don't exist with B2B; in fact, because B2B sites often use a stored company credit card that is not possessed by the traveller, it's necessary to allow any card to collect.

None of which answers the question I asked.

 

[Dent]

Only if it's set to "any card collection"; otherwise, no, they won't.

That still begs the question of why "any card collection" requires a card at all, when the card is obviously not being used to verify anything.

 

[pdq]

...and of course taxis.

Uber is cashless, and even my local taxi firm in Batley uses an app that allows me to pay by card as long as I specify this at the time of booking. The interface is a bit clunky but it works.

 

[Starmill]

Well of course. Some cabs accept cards too, although I don't know how many near me would. I strongly prefer to avoid Uber where possible now. The point was not that you can't pay for a taxi by card, it was that if I get a taxi, paying by card isn't an option. And it isn't unusual or surprising that that's the case.

 

[alistairlees]

None of which answers the question I asked.

I'm terribly sorry. I'll try to answer your question this time.

TVMs work on the assumption that a specific card is required for collection. So they read the card first, then collect the collection reference, then send both to the central database (Live Sales Management) to retrieve the ticket details. The TVMs have no idea whether a particular collection reference is set to "any card" or "specific card", so they need to collect and send both pieces of info - even if one subsequently turns out to be unrequired.

The UX could be changed so that:
- the collection reference was entered first
- the request was sent to LSM
- if the collection reference came back as requiring a specific card, they card is entered (if it doesn't the tickets are printed)
- another request is sent, with the last 4 digits of the card
- the ticket details are sent back and the tickets are printed

I don't think LSM supports that structure though, and it would be slower for the majority of people, so we are where we are.

 

[AlterEgo]

That still begs the question of why "any card collection" requires a card at all, when the card is obviously not being used to verify anything.

Because the software in the machines requires it. There is no better reason than that.