Is there too much reliance on technology when it comes to rail fares?

[Dent]

Because the software in the machines requires it. There is no better reason than that.

That is not really a satisfactory answer. The question which needs to be answered is why was the software programmed to require a card that is not used for anything.

 

[AlterEgo]

That is not really a satisfactory answer. The question which needs to be answered is why was the software programmed to require a card that is not used for anything.

Probably because it’s simpler and there’s no real detriment to programming it that way. Don’t know for sure though.

 

[Dent]

Probably because it’s simpler and there’s no real detriment to programming it that way. Don’t know for sure though.

It isn't simpler for the end user to be required to supply additional documents for no good reason. There is a detriment, see Post 5.

 

[AlterEgo]

It isn't simpler for the end user to be required to supply additional documents for no good reason. There is a detriment, see Post 5.

I agree that it’s not simpler for the end user - and it should be - but there may not be a favourable cost/benefit ratio for the fix (they are more expensive than you’d think).

 

[alistairlees]

That is not really a satisfactory answer. The question which needs to be answered is why was the software programmed to require a card that is not used for anything.

Because the introduction of ToD preceded the acceptance of PayPal and, I should imagine at the time, that no-one considered a scenario where someone would pay by card but not have any card at all (whether it was the one they paid with or not).

Changing everything will cost a fair packet, and probably isn't worth it. People paying with PayPal do still get an email reminding them they need a card (any card), and I expect most also have a card of some sort with them anyway.

 

[The Ham]

Given that most people are still collecting tickets with the card that they paid for their tickets with it should be possible to have a system that allows passengers to enter a four digit code (say the first 4 digits of your booking reference) whilst those requiring an any card collection are required to enter all 8. The system could accept 4 or 8 and send that with the card details to check, if 4 were entered and 8 were required it could then ask for the last 4 digits of code to be entered.

It would take longer for those that entered 4 when they should have done 8 but for most transactions it would be faster, or no slower. In the email when told to present any card they would also be told that they will need to enter the full reference whilst those using their own credit card will be told that they should only need to enter the first 4 digits (as you may wish to randomly check full codes as a spot check or for some other reason).

Yes it would require a change to the system but chances are there's going to need to be a change at some point and so just bundle up with those so as to minimise the extra costs.

 

[Wallsendmag]

I'm glad money is no object. Working for a TOC that requires the same card for collection I just can't see a business case for these changes.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

Having been the victim of online fraud (someone got hold of my card details and used them to buy phone credits in Italy!) I'm extremely wary about using cards for payment unless there's no alternative.

If buying online, including rail tickets - then yes I'll use a credit card but for day to day purchases such as shopping, transport and pubs it's cash every time.

If you pay for everything on card you're leaving quite a trail behind which not only puts you at risk of fraud but also means you're giving an awful lot of personal information away. Given the current furore with Facebook and Cambridge Analyticals, I'd rather companies and advertisers didn't know where I've been, what I've bought and what I've been doing!

 

[SAPhil]

I've noticed that I seem unable to use the card that I purchased the tickets with for collection . I have to use a different one! The original card is an Amex credit card.

 

[infobleep]

I was in a Pizza restaurant in London recently and they didn't accept cash, only cards.

Very rare though.

 

[wibble]

If you pay for everything on card you're leaving quite a trail behind which not only puts you at risk of fraud but also means you're giving an awful lot of personal information away. Given the current furore with Facebook and Cambridge Analyticals, I'd rather companies and advertisers didn't know where I've been, what I've bought and what I've been doing!

The type of data trail you leave using a card to pay for something is insignificant when compared to social media accounts. When I pay with my visa card, people have my name and card number. If I'm a victim of financial fraud, I have some recourse for getting that money back.

On social media, people give away varying levels of information, such as: date of birth, email address, who friends & relatives are, interests in music and sports, businesses they visit, the products they like, where and when they're on holiday (and not at home). Once that information's leaked, it difficult to get back. Some of that data will go abroad and you will have absolutely no control over it. If you go anywhere with a CCTV camera, you're leaving a data trail behind, every time you search for something in a search engine, have your mobile phone switched on, every call and text message is recorded.

I think using your card to pay for something is the least of your worries! (and yes, I have been a victim of card fraud on more than one occasion!)

 

[Baxenden Bank]

I was in a Pizza restaurant in London recently and they didn't accept cash, only cards.

Very rare though.

There was an article on the radio a while back, where a café was card only. I can't remember the owners response when pushed about what would happen if someone came in only with cash - whether they would get a free drink or he would take the cash offered. Did the Pizza restaurant make it clear at the outset that they didn't accept cash? Come to my local waving your smartphone and you will leave a thirsty man. No cards, no contactless, no luncheon vouchers.

Could do with some decent, honest, independent statistics on the uptake of cashless society. The reports reporting on its growth seem to be pushed by organisations with a vested interest in the outcome. Just as the rail industry is keen to confuse the level of advance purchases (tickets bought before validity) and Advance purchases.

 

[Clip]

If you go anywhere with a CCTV camera, you're leaving a data trail behind, every time you search for something in a search engine,

Indeed so with both bing and google but you can go in and delete it all in your google account - duckduckgo https://duckduckgo.com do not record anything you enter and whilst its algorithm isnt as advanced as googles yet it does the job for those who want some extra privacy.

Could do with some decent, honest, independent statistics on the uptake of cashless society. The reports reporting on its growth seem to be pushed by organisations with a vested interest in the outcome. Just as the rail industry is keen to confuse the level of advance purchases (tickets bought before validity) and Advance purchases.

I still find it odd with this countries aversion to using a card or even contactless - its the future and we lag so far behind places like New Zealand where card use is the norm now and contactless is growing year on year yet here we still have a resistance to it. Saying that i always carry cash with me as a back up should i lose my card or something

 

[WelshBluebird]

I regularly get people who have booked tickets online coming to my window, because they can't use Apple Pay to collect from the machines

Being honest, now at least some TVM's do support contactless payments, I do have a fair amount of sympathy with someone who thinks they'll be able to collect tickets using that functionality. Add in the "any card" or "specific card" rubbish, and it really is a bit of a mess!

 

[Hadders]

Having been the victim of online fraud (someone got hold of my card details and used them to buy phone credits in Italy!) I'm extremely wary about using cards for payment unless there's no alternative.

If buying online, including rail tickets - then yes I'll use a credit card but for day to day purchases such as shopping, transport and pubs it's cash every time.

If you pay for everything on card you're leaving quite a trail behind which not only puts you at risk of fraud but also means you're giving an awful lot of personal information away. Given the current furore with Facebook and Cambridge Analyticals, I'd rather companies and advertisers didn't know where I've been, what I've bought and what I've been doing!

It’s never nice to be the victim of fraud but I assume all your losses were refunded by your bank. You don’t get this level of protection if someone steals your wallet (the equivalent of fraud if paying by cash).

I was at Twickenham recently to see a rugby match and the bars were all Card only. I think there’s just one bar in the whole stadium now that accepts cash.

On the other hand I used the M6 Toll earlier today. Contactless accepted but not Apple Pay or Android Pay!

 

[Puffing Devil]

It's easy to overlook the hidden cost of handling cash for a business. Unless you're looking to skim a little off before the taxman gets a look-in, it's an expensive payment method:

• Banking Charges
• Change making/finding
• Staff Theft
• Other theft - need for a safe
• Change/Handling mistakes (How many people go back and repay any overpayment vs. short change)
• Secure cash transit - for larger businesses
• Cash office/cashing up/reconciliation

I'm sure there are plenty more. There's a reason shops are keen to give you "cash-back" - it's out of their till and system.

Compare this to a quick settlement to your bank and integrated bookkeeping. I can see why many businesses are card only now, especially with the speed of contactless - it's frequently faster than cash for an integrated till.

 

[infobleep]

There was an article on the radio a while back, where a café was card only. I can't remember the owners response when pushed about what would happen if someone came in only with cash - whether they would get a free drink or he would take the cash offered. Did the Pizza restaurant make it clear at the outset that they didn't accept cash? Come to my local waving your smartphone and you will leave a thirsty man. No cards, no contactless, no luncheon vouchers.

Could do with some decent, honest, independent statistics on the uptake of cashless society. The reports reporting on its growth seem to be pushed by organisations with a vested interest in the outcome. Just as the rail industry is keen to confuse the level of advance purchases (tickets bought before validity) and Advance purchases.

I'm sure they had signs and when I went to pay they told me. No problem as I just used my phone to pay.

I'm sure if I pull out then then that would be end of sale. I doubt they would have hounded me for the money.

I remember getting on a bus in Galsgow and finding out I didn't get change. Posters did say this I think but if they did it was small print. I didn't know until I'd paid.

I did complain but it didn't get me anywhere.

I don't think the Cafè would have done such a thing.

 

[infobleep]

It’s never nice to be the victim of fraud but I assume all your losses were refunded by your bank. You don’t get this level of protection if someone steals your wallet (the equivalent of fraud if paying by cash).

I was at Twickenham recently to see a rugby match and the bars were all Card only. I think there’s just one bar in the whole stadium now that accepts cash.

On the other hand I used the M6 Toll earlier today. Contactless accepted but not Apple Pay or Android Pay!

Bit like Currys Dixon not doing contactless. They apparently purchased their card systems two weeks before contactless was announced.

Too expensive to suddenly change them all.

 

[Dai Corner]

Bit like Currys Dixon not doing contactless. They apparently purchased their card systems two weeks before contactless was announced.

Too expensive to suddenly change them all.

I'd imagine most of their sales will be over £30 so would require a PIN anyway, making it even less economic to upgrade the kit.

 

[LAX54]

Indeed so with both bing and google but you can go in and delete it all in your google account - duckduckgo https://duckduckgo.com do not record anything you enter and whilst its algorithm isnt as advanced as googles yet it does the job for those who want some extra privacy.


I still find it odd with this countries aversion to using a card or even contactless - its the future and we lag so far behind places like New Zealand where card use is the norm now and contactless is growing year on year yet here we still have a resistance to it. Saying that i always carry cash with me as a back up should i lose my card or something

The USA does not use Contactless, and they are only now starting to take chip and pin, many places still swipe and sign.

 

[johntea]

With regards to fraud, I have two bank accounts set up and only ever keep a small amount in the account linked to my card/Apple Pay with no overdraft facility etc.

So I always have £50-£100 in there as an emergency but if I need any more I simply log in to online banking on my phone and transfer some funds across from my other account (at the same bank so easy).

It does surprise me how some shops still don’t have the facility to accept a card payment when I can go online myself just as an individual and buy a card reader that would pay straight into my PayPal account for £20-£25, of course there are fees but I would guess most of those would be offset by the increased sales of accepting another payment method!

 

[Puffing Devil]

With regards to fraud, I have two bank accounts set up and only ever keep a small amount in the account linked to my card/Apple Pay with no overdraft facility etc.

I don't have any debit cards with contactless - only credit cards. I only ever use my debit card to get cash. If there is fraud on your debit card, the fraudster has your money and you need to fight to get it back from the bank. With a credit card the boot is very much on the other foot. Not to mention the additional protections offered by a credit card.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

With regards to fraud, I have two bank accounts set up and only ever keep a small amount in the account linked to my card/Apple Pay with no overdraft facility etc.

So I always have £50-£100 in there as an emergency but if I need any more I simply log in to online banking on my phone and transfer some funds across from my other account (at the same bank so easy).

It does surprise me how some shops still don’t have the facility to accept a card payment when I can go online myself just as an individual and buy a card reader that would pay straight into my PayPal account for £20-£25, of course there are fees but I would guess most of those would be offset by the increased sales of accepting another payment method!

Paypal fees are sky high for small amounts. As a very small volume seller, at low transaction value, I pay 17% on a £1.50 sale, plus Ebay fees on top of that. Comes down to 10% for a £3.00 sale and 5% around the £12.00 mark. If I were a corner shop I wouldn't use it unless the fees were much lower. As a pub, 10% off every pint straight to Paypal is not attractive (yes, I can pay £3.00 for a decent pint, it's grim up north).

For the cashless business, they must have worked out they can afford to lose a certain amount of business from cash only users - or that most people have a card of some kind in their pocket. Conversely, the shops not accepting card payment of any kind must have determined it does not have any measurable impact on their business as most people carry at least some cash.

Hence my point about reliable research. What proportion of the population have NO cards/contactless/smartphone, how many NEVER carry ANY cash? What is the variance across the country? Across socio-economic groups?

In either group, how many have encountered a problem where they are therefore unable to complete a purchase and therefore go back to having an 'emergency' card/cash amount?

I would suggest that London, with its 'no cash on buses policy', is significantly 'ahead' in terms of cashlessness.

 

[Puffing Devil]

Paypal fees are sky high for small amounts. As a very small volume seller, at low transaction value, I pay 17% on a £1.50 sale, plus Ebay fees on top of that. Comes down to 10% for a £3.00 sale and 5% around the £12.00 mark. If I were a corner shop I wouldn't use it unless the fees were much lower. As a pub, 10% off every pint straight to Paypal is not attractive (yes, I can pay £3.00 for a decent pint, it's grim up north).

For the cashless business, they must have worked out they can afford to lose a certain amount of business from cash only users - or that most people have a card of some kind in their pocket. Conversely, the shops not accepting card payment of any kind must have determined it does not have any measurable impact on their business as most people carry at least some cash.

Hence my point about reliable research. What proportion of the population have NO cards/contactless/smartphone, how many NEVER carry ANY cash? What is the variance across the country? Across socio-economic groups?

In either group, how many have encountered a problem where they are therefore unable to complete a purchase and therefore go back to having an 'emergency' card/cash amount?

I would suggest that London, with its 'no cash on buses policy', is significantly 'ahead' in terms of cashlessness.

iZettle is a flat 1.75% on all transactions which makes it very attractive for small businesses.

As for buses, I would say that the UK, in general, is behind the times - I can remember travelling in Europe as a teenager and not being able to buy bus tickets on board; you had to buy tickets from the nearby Tabac (or local equivalent). Great thinking, as it took cash handling off the bus and gave the shop footfall.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

iZettle is a flat 1.75% on all transactions which makes it very attractive for small businesses.

As for buses, I would say that the UK, in general, is behind the times - I can remember travelling in Europe as a teenager and not being able to buy bus tickets on board; you had to buy tickets from the nearby Tabac (or local equivalent). Great thinking, as it took cash handling off the bus and gave the shop footfall.

Looking at the list of costs incurred by businesses for handling cash (at post 46), for a large, multi-branch business I accept all without question and see the benefits to the business. For the small independent store I suspect all except robbery are pretty irrelevant. And the only way of eliminating the risk of robbery would be to go completely cashless, but you've still got stock worth nicking 'fags and booze', so may still get robbed.

In transport terms, taking cash off the bus eliminates the robbery problem, there is no stock to steal. But given the discussion on a parallel thread, does reliance on technology create other problems - failure to read ENCTS pass = travel denied, failure to read debit card / contactless = travel denied, phone loss or battery run down = travel denied. With no cash alternative available that could be rather inconvenient.
https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...mprovement-shares-and-survival.65668/page-253 #7532 onwards

 

[PeterC]

I still find it odd with this countries aversion to using a card or even contactless - its the future and we lag so far behind places like New Zealand where card use is the norm now and contactless is growing year on year yet here we still have a resistance to it. Saying that i always carry cash with me as a back up should i lose my card or something

I always make sure that I have at least two forms of payment with me. That might just be two different cards but I have been caught where a card was cloned, the issuer spotted it and blocked the card leaving me with a hefty restaurant bill for a family party and a rejected card. A letter informing me was delivered while I was out!

 

[Clip]

I always make sure that I have at least two forms of payment with me. That might just be two different cards but I have been caught where a card was cloned, the issuer spotted it and blocked the card leaving me with a hefty restaurant bill for a family party and a rejected card. A letter informing me was delivered while I was out!

Theres always a risk of it hap penning for sure the same as getting you money pinched out your pocket but i never go anywhere without at least 1 card and some cash and my phone with Google pay on it. And if push comes to shove then i also have the paypal app as a back up too in case i need to pay for a ticket or something to get home if i lose wallet & my cash(held separately ) Would be a disaster if i lost all 4 at once so maybe a smart watch is they future too

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Found some data, looks a reasonable source.

The death of cash transactions appears to be greatly exaggerated!

According to a report by Payments UK the average adult made 55 transactions per month (in 2015). The breakdown being: 27 by cash, 16 debit card, 6 direct debit, 4 credit card, 1 faster payments, standing order 0.7, cheque 0.5. Contactless is 2 per month and is included within the debit card figure.

Data is the volume of transactions rather than value of transactions, which makes a big difference.

In another report I found:

MasterCard Advisors’ “Cashless Journey” study looks at all consumer payments, including those that happen beyond retail point of sale. This is an important consideration to underscore, as by including non-retail payment categories, like housing and bill payment, the total number of transactions becomes larger, while cash share becomes smaller. As in nearly all developed countries, the vast majority of non-retail payments are done by cashless methods. So, while cash typically accounts for the majority of retail payments in shops, when these other consumer payments (e.g. wire transfers to buy a car, direct debits to pay mortgage) are included, cash share of total volume of payments is reduced.

Elsewhere, from a different MasterCard survey, reported in The Sun on 23/10/2016: 14% of brits no longer carry cash, 50% carry less than a fiver, 16% carry up to a tenner and 7% carry over £50. By calculation 13% carry between £10 and £50.

 

[Dai Corner]

Found some data, looks reasonable.

The death of cash transactions appears to be greatly exaggerated!

According to a report by Payments UK the average adult made 55 transactions per month (in 2015). The breakdown being: 27 by cash, 16 debit card, 6 direct debit, 4 credit card, 1 faster payments, standing order 0.7, cheque 0.5. Contactless is 2 per month and is included within the debit card figure.

Data is the volume of transactions rather than value of transactions, which makes a big difference.

In another report I found:



Elsewhere, from a different MasterCard survey, reported in The Sun on 23/10/2016: 14% of brits no longer carry cash, 50% carry less than a fiver, 16% carry up to a tenner and 7% carry over £50. By calculation 13% carry between £10 and £50.

I'd say these figures suggest a rapid reduction in the number of cash payments, with only a minority of people carrying a significant amount of cash in 2016. Those who did probably used other payment methods some of the time so I wouldn't be surprised if 80% of payments were in other than cash now.

 

[Dai Corner]

Found this recent article on the Guardian website.
https://www.theguardian.com/money/2...-of-debit-cards-unbanked-contactless-payments

Revealed: Cash eclipsed as Britain turns to digital payments


Notes and coins set to fall to just 21% of sales by 2026, raising questions for those who rely on the cash economy

Kate Lyons, Rupert Jones and Patrick Collinson

Mon 19 Feb 2018 14.00 GMTLast modified on Tue 20 Feb 2018 17.26 GMT

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In 2006, 62% of all payments in the UK were made using cash; in 2016 the proportion had fallen to 40%. Photograph: Alamy Stock Photo
Britain will move beyond “peak cash” this year, according to data gathered by the Guardian that suggests notes and coins are rapidly being supplanted as the favoured payment method, particularly in cities.

Debit cards are set to overtake cash as the most frequently used payment method in the UK later this year, according to UK Finance, which represents leading finance and banking firms.

The volume of cash removed from cash machines (ATMs) is falling fast, while other data shows customers are eschewing cash for cards – even for small purchases such as a coffee or a beer.

In 2006, 62% of all payments in the UK were made using cash; in 2016 the proportion had fallen to 40%. By 2026, it is predicted cash will be used for just 21%, according to figures from UK Finance.

ATM data show that in 2016, there were 2.7bn withdrawals from the country’s 70,000 cash machines – the lowest number of transactions since 2010. The total amount of money withdrawn at ATMs has fallen steeply in the last few years; in 2016, people withdrew more than £6bn less than they did in 2015.

Bank of England figures meanwhile show that while the volume of cash in the economy typically increases every year, it is now doing so at the slowest rate since 1972.

In the developed world, Sweden and Canada are at the vanguard of the recent move away from cash, as debit cards, credit cards, phone payment methods and apps and online transfers predominate.

jettisoned cash altogether.

Pret a Manger said that more than half of their customers now paid by card and that the proportion was growing; Nando’s said card usage increased 3.37% in the last financial year and now made up 71.3% of all payments at its restaurants.

Cash has also declined dramatically for transport payments. In 2017, train ticket payments were more than four times higher by card than by cash, according to data shared by the Rail Delivery Group, which represents train operators in the UK.

“Britain has well and truly embraced a cashless society because of its ease and convenience,” said Mark Latham, director at Handepay, a provider of card machines. “When [contactless payment] was first introduced in the UK in 2007, there was a lot of ambivalence, but adoption over the past few years has been rapid because of demand.”

Graham Mott, head of strategy at Link, the UK’s largest cash machine network, said that the number of cash machines in Britain was likely to fall, principally in urban centres.

But concerns have been raised for vulnerable groups who might be disproportionately affected by any reduction in the ability to obtain or pay through cash. According to UK Finance, more than half of people who rely predominantly on cash to the exclusion of other payment methods have a household incomes below £15,000.

“I’m really concerned about this move toward a mainly cashless way of doing things,” said Lady Tyler, who was chair of the House of Lords select committee on financial exclusion. “These changes might suit people who are very digitally competent, they might suit banks who can reduce their costs, [but] I really don’t think they are thinking about more vulnerable groups,” she said.

Lucy Malenczuk, a senior policy manager at Age UK, warned that cash was still an extremely important method of payment for some.

“I think that older people along with other commonly excluded groups, such as very low-income consumers are at risk of being disproportionately affected if cash disappeared from society.”

However, some working in cash-handling businesses are confident that a future remains for cash.

They point to the fact there are more bank notes in circulation, totalling a higher value, than ever before - though this measure includes cash lying dormant in bank vaults and ATMs, and as such is not a reflection of usage rates.

Notable slowdown
Mark Trevor, commercial director at Vaultex, which handles one-third of the country’s cash, said while they could not provide figures, they are seeing less of a decline in cash use than other sources are reporting. “While industry figures do show a decline in cash use, the idea that we will all be going cashless has been greatly exaggerated.”