Is this a common Scotrail scam?

[ValleyLines142]

I'm sure the great majority of us do Dan, but a run of several 20's in succession can wipe you out in any case, it's just one of those things, I couldn't care less what denomination of note I'm taking. If I can change it, I will. If I can't , I won't take it.

Same with me. I don't know how much change they carry on their floats, I suppose it's different for different operators.

 

[455driver]

If you ran a shop, a pub or any establishment where you would be likely to be giving change to customers, and if you actually wanted to be able to make sales, you would probably make sure you had enough change to give to customers when the need arose. Why should a train operating company be any different ?

How many shop assistants/ a landlord have to carry the change around on their person all day, none its in the till.

A shop assistant/ landlord is expecting everyone to pay, on a train (most of them at any rate) you should already have bought your ticket from the ticket office/ machine, I have never managed to pre-pay for a pint.

Not really the same is it.

 

[martinsh]

I have never managed to pre-pay for a pint.

.

HAve you not heard of Wetherspoons vouchers ?hock:

 

[455driver]

I prefer a proper pint in a proper pub, tried a Wetherspoons once that was enough for me.

 

[Bungle73]

How many shop assistants/ a landlord have to carry the change around on their person all day, none its in the till.

A shop assistant/ landlord is expecting everyone to pay, on a train (most of them at any rate) you should already have bought your ticket from the ticket office/ machine, I have never managed to pre-pay for a pint.

Not really the same is it.

And what about when you can't? Which is what we're talking about here.

 

[swj99]

you should already have bought your ticket from the ticket office/ machine.......

If there's no ticket office open or machine available at the station where the passenger gets on, it's not the passenger's fault though is it ?

 

[RJ]

+1? Never even heard of it.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I had a guy years ago, produced a £50 note for a short early-morning journey, with a huge grin on his face.

The grin went when I took out one of the two £50 floats I had, took a few quid out of it, and handed him the rest (£47 something in assorted pound coins and silver). I did advise him to check it!

I had that on my train this week, guy paid for a £3 transaction with a £50 note. I asked if he had anything smaller or wanted to pay by card but he was adamant that I should be able to give him change. So he got £20 in £1s, £10 in 50ps, £10 in 20ps, £5.00 in 5ps and the rest in 10p coins.

 

[WelshBluebird]

on a train (most of them at any rate) you should already have bought your ticket from the ticket office/ machine,

But of course, many times that is simply not possible.

 

[Urban Gateline]

The main issue here is common sense, fares are very easy to look up or estimate, so anyone travelling from an unmanned station can easily know how much their fare will likely be, therefore can plan to have suitable money to pay for it! ie a fare is £2.50 on looking it up, so why would you bring a £20 note or larger to pay for this?!

I agree with several others who said earlier that roving cash handlers (Guards!) can only carry so much float for their own safety, it is nothing like a supermarket till which can hold thousands of pounds before being airlifted to the cash office! Expecting a Guard to have enough change for several people paying with big denomination notes for tiny fares is unreasonable, a bus driver is a more fair comparison!

Although the person mentioned in the OP could be genuine, I have my doubts, they know the system and are trying to play it! So if I was the Guard on that line I would start bringing my own extra float in to ensure this person is taught a lesson, give large notes and you get alot of metal in return, I'm sure he'd start paying with smaller denominations of money when his house fills up with coins!

 

[pemma]

How low are the fares in Scotland if the conductor can't change a £20 note. On Northern services I board most people who pay the conductor pay over £5 so the conductor should have plenty of £5 notes to use as change, or are they apprehensive about there being a lot of dud £20 notes in circulation?

 

[Tracky]

I had one regular passenger who paid his 90p fare with a £20 note... He no longer does - he was put off doing so after being given 19 £1 coins and 10p in copper back as change.

 

[michael769]

How low are the fares in Scotland if the conductor can't change a ?20 note. On Northern services I board most people who pay the conductor pay over ?5 so the conductor should have plenty of ?5 notes to use as change, or are they apprehensive about there being a lot of dud ?20 notes in circulation?

Fares in the former SPT area are very low indeed. It was a major shock to my wallet when I moved over to the East Coast and discovered what local rail travel costs everywhere else!

 

[WelshBluebird]

The main issue here is common sense, fares are very easy to look up or estimate, so anyone travelling from an unmanned station can easily know how much their fare will likely be, therefore can plan to have suitable money to pay for it! ie a fare is £2.50 on looking it up, so why would you bring a £20 note or larger to pay for this?!

Maybe you had to get cash out of the cash machine?
Maybe you just wanted to pay with a £20 note to get change?
I don't know, and it doesn't matter.
Train companies accept cash as payment and do no stipulate that you need the right change. Therefore it is simply wrong to be suspicious of someone just because they pay with a £20 note.

 

[Urban Gateline]

Maybe you had to get cash out of the cash machine?
Maybe you just wanted to pay with a £20 note to get change?
I don't know, and it doesn't matter.
Train companies accept cash as payment and do no stipulate that you need the right change. Therefore it is simply wrong to be suspicious of someone just because they pay with a £20 note.

However, the same person paying with a £20 note EVERY time may start to look suspicious! However if the Guard happens to give out change every time then that person my get fed up!

 

[WelshBluebird]

However, the same person paying with a £20 note EVERY time may start to look suspicious! However if the Guard happens to give out change every time then that person my get fed up!

So I take it you would prefer that person to pay on card all the time instead? Taking up a lot more time, and so reducing the number of passengers the guard can attend to.
Paying with a £20 note really is not suspicious at all. Its normal.

 

[CarterUSM]

So I take it you would prefer that person to pay on card all the time instead? Taking up a lot more time, and so reducing the number of passengers the guard can attend to.
Paying with a £20 note really is not suspicious at all. Its normal.

Not nowadays anyway, perhaps some years ago, though it does have to be said that some passengers think they are giving me an inconvenience, but they're really not. Couldn't care less if they paid by card all the same, the time difference really is minimal with a bit of efficiency and experience.

 

[island]

Legally in England and Wales a legal tender must be exact change. Not applicable in Scotland. But I severely doubt a prosecution would hold up because the gripper can't change a £20, unless you could establish an intent to avoid payment (very difficult unless the same person is caught by the same guard multiple times)

 

[Bungle73]

Legally in England and Wales a legal tender must be exact change.

Um, no.

In England and Wales the £5, £10, £20 and £50 notes are legal tender for payment of any amount.

http://www.royalmint.com/corporate/policies/legal_tender_guidelines.aspx

But I severely doubt a prosecution would hold up because the gripper can't change a £20, unless you could establish an intent to avoid payment (very difficult unless the same person is caught by the same guard multiple times)

Even in that case I'd think the TOC would be on shaky legal ground. A £20 note is perfectly acceptable means of payment. The guard not having the right change is neither here nor there.

 

[island]

Um, no.



http://www.royalmint.com/corporate/policies/legal_tender_guidelines.aspx

Um, yes. If you'd taken the time to read the rest of that exact page you mention rather than just quoting a bit, you'd have seen:

In order to comply with the very strict rules governing an actual legal tender it is necessary, for example, actually to offer the exact amount due because no change can be demanded.

 

[Urban Gateline]

Um, yes. If you'd taken the time to read the rest of that exact page you mention rather than just quoting a bit, you'd have seen:

So if that same person keeps trying to "offer" the £20 note then maybe the Guard could refuse to give change, hence making the fare £20, as according to that quote the person has no right to "demand change"

 

[Bungle73]

Um, yes. If you'd taken the time to read the rest of that exact page you mention rather than just quoting a bit, you'd have seen:

And what about the bit I quoted? That contradicts what you stated.

 

[pemma]

Um, yes. If you'd taken the time to read the rest of that exact page you mention rather than just quoting a bit, you'd have seen:
In order to comply with the very strict rules governing an actual legal tender it is necessary, for example, actually to offer the exact amount due because no change can be demanded.

So if that same person keeps trying to "offer" the £20 note then maybe the Guard could refuse to give change, hence making the fare £20, as according to that quote the person has no right to "demand change"

Where does it say the vendor has any right to take £10 for a £5.60 fare if they can't provide change? They can say "exact change only please" and if the passenger doesn't have this then it's back to square 1.

 

[bb21]

And what about the bit I quoted? That contradicts what you stated.

No, it does not.

Notes are legal tender for any amount, just like the £1 and £2 coins, however,

In order to comply with the very strict rules governing an actual legal tender it is necessary, for example, actually to offer the exact amount due because no change can be demanded.

 

[Bungle73]

No, it does not.

Um, yes it does:

Legally in England and Wales a legal tender must be exact change.

In England and Wales the £5, £10, £20 and £50 notes are legal tender for payment of any amount.

 

[Urban Gateline]

Arguing over legal tender used on trains is a bit pedantic, this whole debate would be at an end if people simply had common sense and carried either a debit card which works onboard trains or smaller denominations of cash to pay for their fare!

In a dream world, I know!

 

[142094]

Why not have a slightly larger float for some services? If they know they are regularly busy, then increase the float amount. Any additional can be kept in the cab.

 

[bb21]

Um, yes it does:

Are you suggesting that the Royal Mint website contains contradicting information within itself?

 

[Urban Gateline]

Why not have a slightly larger float for some services? If they know they are regularly busy, then increase the float amount. Any additional can be kept in the cab.

Is this safe enough though, with all these loonies about someone might break into there, especially since most cab doors are only secured by either a T or BR1 Key which are relatively easily available.

Safer to be kept on the Guard I think, nobody public would know about the increased float anyway!

 

[142094]

Is this safe enough though, with all these loonies about someone might break into there, especially since most cab doors are only secured by either a T or BR1 Key which are relatively easily available.

Safer to be kept on the Guard I think, nobody public would know about the increased float anyway!

Still, if they do get in they'll be stealing something anyway. I've heard of this happening before, although I have no idea how often it occurs.

Still, perhaps an extra bag of 20 £1 coins and a few low value notes would go a little way towards the siutation?

In any case, in a few years time it will no doubt be uncommon to pay for a ticket with notes/coins, seeing as everyone should have some sort of smartcard by then...

 

[Bungle73]

Arguing over legal tender used on trains is a bit pedantic, this whole debate would be at an end if people simply had common sense and carried either a debit card which works onboard trains

In a dream world, I know!

Not everyone has one; and there have been issues with them too (see another thread).

or smaller denominations of cash to pay for their fare!

But the smallest you can get out of most ATMs is £10 or £20.

Are you suggesting that the Royal Mint website contains contradicting information within itself?

Well, let's be honest, what it actually means isn't very clear is it?