Is this allowed?

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4SRKT

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Earlier this week I was on a crowded East Coast train from Leeds to the Cross. The guard made an announcement that anyone who had luggage on a seat who refused to move it would have to pay a full single fare for it. Can he do this?
 
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Mike395

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It's a good idea for the guard to threaten this on a busy train IMO - as it is blocking the seat for a fare-paying passenger (and such a thread usually works a treat) :)

Whether it's enforceable I dont know though - would be interesting to hear other peoples opinions!
 

rdwarr

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I recall reading something years (like 20) ago that a child fare could be charged in these circumstances. Sure one of the experts will be along soon though.
 

ralphchadkirk

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Nrcoc:
3. A fee not exceeding half the adult fare for your journey is charged for:
• each additional item in excess of a passenger’s free allowance; and • any item with dimensions exceeding 90 x 70 x 30 cm.
So charging anything other than half the adult fare for the journey cannot be done.
Edit: Why is N R C O C changed to Nrcoc?
 

wintonian

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A ppendix B of the NCoC:

ADDITIONAL CONDITIONS FOR LUGGAGE, ARTICLES, ANIMALS AND CYCLES
Conveyance of Luggage and Articles in Passenger Accommodation
1. Passenger accommodation in these Conditions means the parts of trains with seats

or sleeper berths including luggage stowage areas above, beneath and behind seats

and adjacent to doorways.
2.




Condition 46 allows you to take small items of Luggage and Articles into the
passenger accommodation of a train. Small items are considered to be those with
dimensions not exceeding 90 x 70 x 30 cm with a weight not exceeding 50kg. Each
passenger (aged 5 years or more) may take three small items into a train free of
charge, however, the dimensions of only two of these items may exceed 55 x 40 x 20 cm.
21...


...
3. A fee not exceeding half the adult fare for your journey is charged for:


• each additional item in excess of a passenger’s free allowance; and


• any item with dimensions exceeding 90 x 70 x 30 cm.
4. A Train Company may refuse to accept Luggage or Articles in passenger

accommodation if any of the following apply:


• the restrictions listed in Condition 49 apply;


• the item would obstruct doorways, gangways or corridors;


• the dimensions of the item exceed 100 x 100 x 100 cm; or


• in the opinion of the Train Company’s staff, the item is only suitable to be

conveyed in a luggage van.
5. For wheelchairs please refer to the table “Luggage and Miscellaneous Articles”.
No restrictions on occupying a seat but most items I have seen occupying seats in such a way would be liable to the charge for being conveyed, and I do wish they would enforce such charges – suitcases larger that the person carrying them are a menace.
 

yorkie

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If they refused to comply then I don't see why they couldn't be asked to leave the train.

The charges in the NRCoC do not entitle the passenger to refuse to give up a seat conveying any such item.
 

ralphchadkirk

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If they refused to comply then I don't see why they couldn't be asked to leave the train.

The charges in the NRCoC do not entitle the passenger to refuse to give up a seat conveying any such item.
That wasn't what was asked though. The guard can ask someone to leave the train, if he has a genuine belief he is acting in the interests of safety, and to remain on the train would be a criminal offence.

From my reading of the Conditions of Carriage, a full single fare cannot be legitimately asked for for a piece of luggage on the seat.

Now, whether it's half the cost of the fare the passenger has paid or whether it's half the cost of a standard ticket is debatable.
 

DaveNewcastle

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. . . .
Now, whether it's half the cost of the fare the passenger has paid or whether it's half the cost of a standard ticket is debatable.
You're quite correct, that the reference to the fare is undefined.

However, the following guidance from ATOC might also be helpful (and which particularly applies to the intended journey with EC who have a 'Guards van')
Items conveyed for a fee

Fee not exceeding half the adult fare for the journey subject to a maximum charge of £5.00 single or £10.00 return:

In passenger accommodation:

• each additional item in excess of a passenger’s free allowance
• any item with dimensions exceeding 90 x 70 x 30 cm and with maximum dimensions of 100 x 100 x 100 cm and a weight not exceeding 50kg.
• Musical instruments with dimensions not exceeding 100 x 100 x 100 cm and the weight not exceeding 50kg


In luggage van:

• Items of Luggage or Articles with maximum dimensions of 150 x 150 x 100 cm and a weight not exceeding 75kg.
• Golf Equipment
• Musical instruments with dimensions not exceeding 150 x 150 x 100 cm and the weight not exceeding 75kg.
• Skis and ski-boards
Its my experience that large items may sometimes be carried in the van with no fee being charged if it helps to keep the passenger accomodation clear.

There will be an anti-shouting mechanism in the forum software, that prevents people posting words with all capitals.
Oh, really?
 

wintonian

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That wasn't what was asked though. The guard can ask someone to leave the train, if he has a genuine belief he is acting in the interests of safety, and to remain on the train would be a criminal offence.

From my reading of the Conditions of Carriage, a full single fare cannot be legitimately asked for for a piece of luggage on the seat.

Now, whether it's half the cost of the fare the passenger has paid or whether it's half the cost of a standard ticket is debatable.
I sincerely hope it is not for the whole journey, who would fancy paying £291 for the pleasure of taking you suitcase from Ryde Pier Head to Ryde Esplanade because you have a FOR from Inverness and non of the other guards alluded to the charge.

Mind you the wording is:
3.A fee not exceeding half the adult fare for your journey is charged for:
so who knows.

and do children get to pay proportionately double then?
 

barrykas

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This appears to be an extension of the old rule relating to "exclusive use" of a compartment (remember those?), when you could pay six times the appropriate fare to get a compo all to yourself.

As to whether it's enforceable, I couldn't say, but as a "threat" it generally works....

Cheers,

Barry
 

DaveNewcastle

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This appears to be an extension of the old rule relating to "exclusive use" of a compartment (remember those?), when you could pay six times the appropriate fare to get a compo all to yourself.
Perhaps. The Regulations from about 170 years ago were much more clearly focussed on the carriage of goods, freight (coal in particular), produce and livestock. There were elaborate tariffs governing their carriage, as well as passenger's luggage, compartments and of course, classes.

As to whether it's enforceable, I couldn't say . . .
Some of those 19th C. Acts are still current statutes, though having recently studied another Clause from the period, it seems that the Act hasn't been repealled, but the legal context which would be necessary for a Prosecution, has moved on, rendering the Clause sterile.
 

4SRKT

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Thanks. I thought he probably couldn't threaten what he actually said, but was unsure what the NRCoC would say. It didn't seem right TBF, and if he's threatening something unenforceable he's going beyond his remit. He might as well threaten to shoot someone who refused to move a bag; it'd be about as legal but still an effective deterrent ;)

If a child fare is the appropriate sanction and the offending passenger was a Family Railcard holder would he be able to get the Railcard discount for the bag?
 

wintonian

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Thanks. I thought he probably couldn't threaten what he actually said, but was unsure what the NRCoC would say. It didn't seem right TBF, and if he's threatening something unenforceable he's going beyond his remit. He might as well threaten to shoot someone who refused to move a bag; it'd be about as legal but still an effective deterrent ;)

If a child fare is the appropriate sanction and the offending passenger was a Family Railcard holder would he be able to get the Railcard discount for the bag?

No it is not the child fare but a maximin of half the adult fare, if an adult was travelling with any valid railcard then I can't see why the discount cannot be applied.

But what is the 'adult fare'? Is it the 'appropriate fare' or the 'anytime fare' or the fair paid and is it the fare for the type of accommodation you or your bag is using? Are special offers and rangers/ rovers inluded and how does this apply to shipping links tickets?
 
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34D

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Thanks. I thought he probably couldn't threaten what he actually said, but was unsure what the NRCoC would say. It didn't seem right TBF, and if he's threatening something unenforceable he's going beyond his remit. He might as well threaten to shoot someone who refused to move a bag; it'd be about as legal but still an effective deterrent ;)

If a child fare is the appropriate sanction and the offending passenger was a Family Railcard holder would he be able to get the Railcard discount for the bag?
I would suggest that 90% of passengers would support what was being said.
 

34D

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Irrelevant to whether it's correct.
Whether it is correct is irrelevant. These anti-social idiots with bags on seats are a real problem.

You don't seem to appreciate this, and are concerning yourself only with whether the guard is 100% correct in his announcement or not.
 

ralphchadkirk

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You don't seem to appreciate this, and are concerning yourself only with whether the guard is 100% correct in his announcement or not.
I'm concerning myself with that because that was what the OP asked. In any case, guards should not be making wholly incorrect and unenforceable announcements.


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Sapphire Blue

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I'd like to think they could be charged for the bags "fare" and still be made to move it for someone to sit down. <D
In as much as, no matter how many tickets you have paid for, you are not allowed to perloin other seats for your luggage.
 

trainophile

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What if your "bag" happens to be a cat carrier with a sensitive pedigree moggy in it? Agreed it should not take up a seat that is needed by another passenger, but how about if you decide to stand yourself, beside your seat, so that your pet can occupy the seat you are entitled to for yourself?

I'd say one fare paying passenger is allowed one seat, and it's up to them what they do with it (within reason obviously).
 

wintonian

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What if your "bag" happens to be a cat carrier with a sensitive pedigree moggy in it? Agreed it should not take up a seat that is needed by another passenger, but how about if you decide to stand yourself, beside your seat, so that your pet can occupy the seat you are entitled to for yourself?

I'd say one fare paying passenger is allowed one seat, and it's up to them what they do with it (within reason obviously).
Except for dogs, animals must be conveyed in a fully enclosed basket or pet carrier
designed for this purpose with dimensions not exceeding 85 x 60 x 60 cm. Baskets


and pet carriers must be large enough to allow the animal to stand and lie down in

comfort. Animals which are too large for a basket or pet carrier with dimensions 85 x

60 x 60 cm may not be conveyed by train

A, it would have to quite a small dog

B, as it is a dog it is required to be on a lead at all times, there doesn’t seem to be an exception for dog in pet carriers.

In any case as a passenger you don't pay for the use of a seat only conveyance.
 

12CSVT

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This appears to be an extension of the old rule relating to "exclusive use" of a compartment (remember those?), when you could pay six times the appropriate fare to get a compo all to yourself.
I seem to remember that in the case of Motorail services, each car load of passengers was allocated their own compartment regardless of how many people were in a particular car.
 

Loey

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I don't really care what the rules are for this, but anything that can be done to stop these selfish gits taking up 2 seats should be encouraged.

I commute on the EC line, and the number of times I have seen people getting on a peak hour train out of KX, then planting their bags (we're talking small holdalls here, not luggage) on the seat next to them, then bury their heads in a book and ignore the other passengers round them looking for seats..........

Makes my blood boil.........:mad:

They should be banned for a period of time, and forced to use National Express coaches........see how they like that
 

Flamingo

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To answer the OP's question, no the guard was incorrect and it is unenforceable (and even if a ticket was bought, the bag still couldn't stay on the seat - see threads passim).

However, the guard DOES have the right to move any luggage that is causing an obstruction or interfering with the comfort of other passengers to a more suitable place, and does not have to get permission from the owner before doing that. If the train was crowded, that could include removing it to the platform and advising the passenger to join it and wait for another less crowded train.
 
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