Is this due to the Age of the Train?

[jthjth]

On Monday I went to London Stp on an EMT HST in first class. Given how many folk seem to praise this rolling stock I was surprised how poor the experience was. The coach seemed to transmit every vertical jolt, to the extent that it often felt like we were going down a pot hole (yes I know railways don't have such things....). There was a lot of noise from the vestibule, despite the door to the carriage area being shut. Lastly there were gales of cold air, to the extent my wife remarked as to where the open window might be. I certainly wouldn't like to travel any further than the hour I had on this train. In contrast, the Meridian on the way back was far superior, in spite of me sitting directly above an engine.

 

[ComUtoR]

The coach seemed to transmit every vertical jolt, to the extent that it often felt like we were going down a pot hole (yes I know railways don't have such things....).

Wet beds produce that kind of phenomenon.

 

[jthjth]

Wet beds produce that kind of phenomenon.

Could you expand? I presume you don't mean where I sleep.....

 

[ComUtoR]

The technical side I'll leave to the experts but I believe its where water gets under the track bed and you get vertical movement of the rails when the train passes over it. Almost exactly like a going over a pothole.

They get dug out manually, drained and new ballast stuck in, again the experts should be along soon to fill us in....

There are loads all over the place and can easily be identified as it usually causes discolouration of the trackbed and looks like a pale, greyish clay.

https://www.safety.networkrail.co.uk/Services/Jargon-Buster/W/WA-WE/Wet-Patch

Wet Patch
Also known as a "wet bed" this is a section of track where the ballast/sleepers become saturated through water contamination/leakage from either above or underground often resulting in a slight dip or reported "rough rides" in the track as trains pass over. Requires P/Way attention.

http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...C3E9EE1C3CE94FF1A7A0C3E9EE1C3CE94&FORM=VRDGAR

Video

Just like a pothole.

PS. Lateral movement is real bad.

PPS.

Cyclic Top

Cyclic Top occurs when a dip in a rail causes the suspension of a vehicle passing over it to bounce. The track at the end of the bounce then receives an impact loading that can create a second rail dip and, as that second dip deteriorates with successive impacts, trains will then bounce a second time, creating a third dip. After time a sequence of dips can be created which will, depending on the suspension characteristcs of the trains using the line, cause each successive bounce to increase to the point where the vehicle will derail.

Potholes

 

[grumblingalong]

In the defence of the Mk3 the East Mids HST stock is imho the worst mk3 stock on the network today after the refurb in Anglia. Take a trip on the highland chieftain on day in a HST and you'll be a convert.

 

[Mikey C]

Is this due to the Age of the Train?

Has horrible memories of the former Radio 1 DJ who starred in those adverts...

 

[MCR247]

HSTs ride much worse on the MML than 222s

 

[t o m]

HSTs ride much worse on the MML than 222s

I feel that the HSTs run smoother purely for not having the running gear under each carriage.

 

[BurtonM]

Nice word play in the title

 

[yorksrob]

I feel that the HSTs run smoother purely for not having the running gear under each carriage.

And they have more comfortable seating.

 

[jthjth]

I feel that the HSTs run smoother purely for not having the running gear under each carriage.

I felt the opposite - quite literally.

And thinking about it, it's not the first time I've not enjoyed being on an HST on the MML. Given what has been said up thread about VTEC HSTs being superior, is it just that EMT don't care for their stock enough?

Oh, and another thing..... Clouds of white smoke shot past the window, so the notion that having the engine up front helps protect you from the fumes seems a little thin. ( thread elsewhere recently)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Nice word play in the title

Thank you. I remember the adverts the first time around (never liked the man then) and the adventures of distant travel on Persil tickets. And the MML was about to be electrified.....

 

[MCR247]

I feel that the HSTs run smoother purely for not having the running gear under each carriage.

What? I'm not talking about the vibrations that people love to rattle on about, I'm talking about excessive sideways movement that the HSTs experience on track where 222s are fine.

And they have more comfortable seating.

Oh so IC70s increase the ride quality of trains as well now

 

[yorksrob]

Oh so IC70s increase the ride quality of trains as well now

They do if you can bounce along with the movement of the train !

 

[MCR247]

They do if you can bounce along with the movement of the train !

Exactly, they dont

 

[yorksrob]

Exactly, they dont

Who cares, as long as you feel comfortable.

 

[ExRes]

Oh, and another thing..... Clouds of white smoke shot past the window, so the notion that having the engine up front helps protect you from the fumes seems a little thin.

I'm assuming you mean 'shot past the window' as in outside of the window rather than inside the window, as an HST is diesel powered you must surely realise and accept that the exhaust has to go somewhere?

 

[MCR247]

Who cares, as long as you feel comfortable.

I don't, I find IC70s very uncomfortable and I therefore try to avoid EMTs Nottingham fasts (that, the poor ride and lack of sockets)

 

[jthjth]

I'm assuming you mean 'shot past the window' as in outside of the window rather than inside the window, as an HST is diesel powered you must surely realise and accept that the exhaust has to go somewhere?

Indeed I do. However, in the other thread it was postulated that HSTs might cause less in coach pollution than Meridians, as the engines were up at the front. My point is with the clouds of smoke coming past the windows some of it must be drawn into the air conditioning system. (I'm assuming there is a fresh air inlet somewhere?) I'm no expert on diesel engines, but I don't see smoke from Meridians. I'm wondering exactly how healthy it is sitting in the coach immediately behind a smoking HST power car. And it is probably worse if you have to work in that coach all day as one of the first class hosts. I know some people go all misty eyed about "clag", but I don't.

 

[NSEFAN]

I know some people go all misty eyed about "clag", but I don't.

Given enough clag, it makes everyone go misty eyed!

 

[Ships]

On Monday I went to London Stp on an EMT HST in first class. Given how many folk seem to praise this rolling stock I was surprised how poor the experience was. The coach seemed to transmit every vertical jolt, to the extent that it often felt like we were going down a pot hole (yes I know railways don't have such things....). There was a lot of noise from the vestibule, despite the door to the carriage area being shut. Lastly there were gales of cold air, to the extent my wife remarked as to where the open window might be. I certainly wouldn't like to travel any further than the hour I had on this train. In contrast, the Meridian on the way back was far superior, in spite of me sitting directly above an engine.

I regularly ride on pacers on (fairly ropey) jointed track, I've never suffered an experience such as you've described.

I've had a lot of travel time on voyager and meridians (which to be fair are much more comfy than voyagers), I've also been on the EMT HST, I have to say I found the opposite to you, they were quiet and the ride was decent.

Regarding the exhaust, HSTs and voyagers all exhaust through the roof so you would have the same issues, although I maintain its not an issue..

 

[Bletchleyite]

The "pollution" issue in Mk3s is brake muck going into the aircon intake.

 

[yorksrob]

I don't, I find IC70s very uncomfortable and I therefore try to avoid EMTs Nottingham fasts (that, the poor ride and lack of sockets)

I disagree on comfort, however the lack of sockets in standard was definitely an oversight.

 

[fowler9]

Indeed I do. However, in the other thread it was postulated that HSTs might cause less in coach pollution than Meridians, as the engines were up at the front. My point is with the clouds of smoke coming past the windows some of it must be drawn into the air conditioning system. (I'm assuming there is a fresh air inlet somewhere?) I'm no expert on diesel engines, but I don't see smoke from Meridians. I'm wondering exactly how healthy it is sitting in the coach immediately behind a smoking HST power car. And it is probably worse if you have to work in that coach all day as one of the first class hosts. I know some people go all misty eyed about "clag", but I don't.

Did you really have clouds of white smoke shooting past the window? Really? Tell the truth now.

 

[jthjth]

Did you really have clouds of white smoke shooting past the window? Really? Tell the truth now.

Yes. When the train accelerated. Depends on your definition of clouds, but enough for me to notice it and to recall the thread on in train pollution. I wasn't deliberately looking out for it at the time.

What prompted me to start this thread was how often I had read that HSTs are such wonderful things, and under floor engined trains were "a bad thing". Given a trip one way, on the same section of line, by HST and the return by Merridian, the HST was for me a decidedly worse experience. I think I was trying to get comments on whether HSTs have always been like this, and the Merridian has set higher standards, or if the HSTs are suffering from age, poor maintenance or a combination of both. I shouldn't really have hijacked my own thread by diverting down a branch line about smoke.

 

[fowler9]

Yes. When the train accelerated. Depends on your definition of clouds, but enough for me to notice it and to recall the thread on in train pollution. I wasn't deliberately looking out for it at the time.

What prompted me to start this thread was how often I had read that HSTs are such wonderful things, and under floor engined trains were "a bad thing". Given a trip one way, on the same section of line, by HST and the return by Merridian, the HST was for me a decidedly worse experience. I think I was trying to get comments on whether HSTs have always been like this, and the Merridian has set higher standards, or if the HSTs are suffering from age, poor maintenance or a combination of both. I shouldn't really have hijacked my own thread by diverting down a branch line about smoke.

With all due respect mate you brought up the smoke. I do apologise if you feel I hijacked the thread though. If you prefer Meridians fair play to you, it is all down to personal preference. I personally don't like the constant thrum of underfloor engines whether some feel it is barely noticeable or not. I personally find the difference in ride quality barely noticeable. The HST's are getting a bit long in the tooth to be fair and are not as sharp as they once were.

 

[jthjth]

With all due respect mate you brought up the smoke. I do apologise if you feel I hijacked the thread though. If you prefer Meridians fair play to you, it is all down to personal preference. I personally don't like the constant thrum of underfloor engines whether some feel it is barely noticeable or not. I personally find the difference in ride quality barely noticeable. The HST's are getting a bit long in the tooth to be fair and are not as sharp as they once were.

Sorry, I think I failed to explain myself properly - I accused myself of hijacking my own thread. I didn't in any way intend to accuse you of this.

 

[kevjs]

I don't, I find IC70s very uncomfortable and I therefore try to avoid EMTs Nottingham fasts (that, the poor ride and lack of sockets)

So it's not just me then - most of my colleagues and I on our trips to London go for the slower trains as they are better all round, the smoother ride, better leg room, the lack of fixed arm rests* and of course the power sockets.

About the only thing the HST's have going for them is they are a bit quieter (usually), but the headphones cancel that benefit out anyway.

*As someone at 1.95m tall the arm rests make it difficult to get in the seats, and make the airline seating horrible to sit in.

 

[Emblematic]

Yes. When the train accelerated. Depends on your definition of clouds, but enough for me to notice it and to recall the thread on in train pollution. I wasn't deliberately looking out for it at the time.

What prompted me to start this thread was how often I had read that HSTs are such wonderful things, and under floor engined trains were "a bad thing". Given a trip one way, on the same section of line, by HST and the return by Merridian, the HST was for me a decidedly worse experience. I think I was trying to get comments on whether HSTs have always been like this, and the Merridian has set higher standards, or if the HSTs are suffering from age, poor maintenance or a combination of both. I shouldn't really have hijacked my own thread by diverting down a branch line about smoke.

So, to go back to you original question, I've had recent experience of HST journeys on the MML, some being very smooth (i.e. normal for a HST) and one memorable first class journey where it was plain awful. Coffee sloshing out of cups bad (on plain track.) Maybe the same carriage as yours!
Anyhow, I don't believe it's directly age related, the components that wear out to cause these issues, bushes and dampers mainly, are service parts that are tested and changed at intervals. They wouldn't be original, unserviced parts. Older HST sets on the GWML still ride very well, so I would have to suspect it's a maintenance issue.

 

[fowler9]

Sorry, I think I failed to explain myself properly - I accused myself of hijacking my own thread. I didn't in any way intend to accuse you of this.

No worries mate, looking back that is what you said.

I think that the problem you have is people like me find it hard to view these things objectively some times. I am always going to prefer a HST or even better a 37, 40, 45, 47 etc. hauling a load of coaches. Even if you could scientifically prove a modern unit has better ride quality or is actually quieter we still wouldn't enjoy it as much. At the end of the day it would be a hell of a boring world if we all liked the same thing.

 

[jthjth]

No worries mate, looking back that is what you said.

I think that the problem you have is people like me find it hard to view these things objectively some times. I am always going to prefer a HST or even better a 37, 40, 45, 47 etc. hauling a load of coaches. Even if you could scientifically prove a modern unit has better ride quality or is actually quieter we still wouldn't enjoy it as much. At the end of the day it would be a hell of a boring world if we all liked the same thing.

Oh I fully identify with that, I'm quite happy sitting behind a steam locomotive (gross hypocrisy here about smoke) and The Flying Scotsman documentary on BBC Four made me come over all funny the other night.