Is this itinerary for real?

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richw

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Following another thread where someone posted about a limited service in Pinhoe, I had a look at GWR's website for Pinhoe to Exeter central services. It suggested the following, could someone break their journey at Bristol or westbury because the journey planner says that itinerary?


The original service from Pinhoe to St David's calls at Exeter Central!
 

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TheEdge

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Well, journey planner dun goofed there...

I suspect there would be a defense similar to when Amazon accidentally sell laptops for 82p then refuses to honour it when the error is spotted. It is so clearly a mistake no reasonable person would think otherwise.
 

AlterEgo

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Well, journey planner dun goofed there...

I suspect there would be a defense similar to when Amazon accidentally sell laptops for 82p then refuses to honour it when the error is spotted. It is so clearly a mistake no reasonable person would think otherwise.

Legally you're probably correct, though ATOC guidance has for some time been to allow travel if it's accompanied by a booking engine itinerary.

(Yes, there are many issues with this, I don't agree 100% but it is what it is)
 

Tetchytyke

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I suspect there would be a defense similar to when Amazon accidentally sell laptops for 82p then refuses to honour it when the error is spotted. It is so clearly a mistake no reasonable person would think otherwise.

It's a bit more complicated if the ticketing website actually accepts the booking and issues you a ticket.

The general principle is that a website/shop price label is an "invitation to treat" (i.e. they're asking you to make an offer), you make the offer and then the company decide whether to accept it or not. Amazon, in noticing the error, stopping the transaction and refunding you the money, choose not to accept your offer to buy a laptop for 82p. If the train company issue you a ticket for a specific itinerary- even one as batpoo crazy as this- it gets tricky. It's a very similar reason why East Midlands Trains honoured off-peak return tickets from Kent to Yorkshire last year that were priced at £8.90 rather than £89, and why Scotrail honoured their Tweedbank screw up.
 

PermitToTravel

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This case is different in that the first train calls at the destination station. Your ticket would expire there and you'd be obligated to get off.
 

greatkingrat

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What day were you searching for? I wonder if some sort of temporary easement has been added to the routeing guide data for that day that has had some inadvertent effects.
 

richw

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What day were you searching for? I wonder if some sort of temporary easement has been added to the routeing guide data for that day that has had some inadvertent effects.

It was tomorrow afternoon,, I don't intend traveling purely curiosity of the service level after seeing a post somewhere else on the forum suggesting their service is inadequate. The travel time and 5 changes caught my eye on the output screen. It's only giving this routing today and tomorrow and not next week having played around with the booking engine

That seems to be the only time it shows up as an option. Were it to be valid looks a cheap way of doing Exeter to Bristol for example with BoJ, and as per NRE

When you book your journey online, any ticket offered in connection with the timetable or itinerary produced by the journey planner will be accepted as a permitted route.
 

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TheEdge

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The plot thickens. That odd routing doesn't show up on the NRE planner but does on the GWR planner. And then it at the same time offers the 12.33 as the correct routing right next to it.

I suppose if someone wants to see if you can legitimately travel round most of the southwest on a £2 single on a technicality tomorrow is your one and only chance.
 

richw

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Interestingly when I pressed 'earlier', and then went back by pressing 'later' on the 'earlier' screen it had gone
 

ScotTrains

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Still there when I checked right now. You might as well go First class for £3.60. Would be pretty hard to argue if you have seats reserved. The price paid for a ticket doesn't influence it's validity.
 

DMU180

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Are you sure you did not have a via location selected. If you put Pinhoe to Exeter Central via Swindon that journey is shown.
 

richw

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Are you sure you did not have a via location selected. If you put Pinhoe to Exeter Central via Swindon that journey is shown.

Definitely sure, hence why in the later screen shot can be seen the direct journeys including the same departure from pinhole.

Putting Swindon as a via point shouldn't be successful as surely not valid normally unless a strange easement exists
 

aformeruser

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This case is different in that the first train calls at the destination station. Your ticket would expire there and you'd be obligated to get off.

If the ticket is issued to Exeter STNs it doesn't automatically expire at the first station in the group you reach. If you have a Birmingham STNs to Liverpool STNs ticket you can alight a LM train at Liverpool Lime Street and then catch a Merseyrail train to Liverpool James Street.
 

DMU180

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Definitely sure, hence why in the later screen shot can be seen the direct journeys including the same departure from pinhole.

Putting Swindon as a via point shouldn't be successful as surely not valid normally unless a strange easement exists

Just tried it with Via Swindon and it appears as a legitimate journey! Would be great if you Lived in Pinhoe and work in Swindon! £2.20 return :lol:
 

aformeruser

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It's a bit more complicated if the ticketing website actually accepts the booking and issues you a ticket.

The general principle is that a website/shop price label is an "invitation to treat" (i.e. they're asking you to make an offer), you make the offer and then the company decide whether to accept it or not. Amazon, in noticing the error, stopping the transaction and refunding you the money, choose not to accept your offer to buy a laptop for 82p. If the train company issue you a ticket for a specific itinerary- even one as batpoo crazy as this- it gets tricky. It's a very similar reason why East Midlands Trains honoured off-peak return tickets from Kent to Yorkshire last year that were priced at £8.90 rather than £89, and why Scotrail honoured their Tweedbank screw up.

Indeed. Really a ticket is proof of a contract existing so the TOC have to offer you compensation if there's a significant change to the conditions after you make a purchase.
 

furlong

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It's a very similar reason why East Midlands Trains honoured off-peak return tickets from Kent to Yorkshire last year that were priced at £8.90 rather than £89, and why Scotrail honoured their Tweedbank screw up.

Those cases were quite different, as those were reviewed, approved and published fares for the journeys concerned at the time.

The situation presented on this thread appears merely to be a glaringly-obvious bug in a website. This might be considered to provide an implied contractual term that contradicts the standard terms (NRCoC+Routeing Guide), so anyone thinking of taking advantage of this mistake should think through very carefully exactly how that contradiction might get resolved. Would a standard term or a ridiculously unreasonable term that the ticket-holder can see to be a mistake take precedence? Might any website "disclaimer" about information that is "incorrect" guide the decision?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Indeed. Really a ticket is proof of a contract existing so the TOC have to offer you compensation if there's a significant change to the conditions after you make a purchase.

A contract for travel between the origin and destination along the routes specified by the NRCoC+Routeing Guide. The route under discussion is not in the Routeing Guide. Unless using an Advance ticket that is contractually tied to the trains concerned, anyone attempting to take advantage of this bug is in a very weak position, in my opinion, and shouldn't be surprised if treated as joining the train without a valid ticket (while being offered a full refund for the incorrect ticket).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
What day were you searching for? I wonder if some sort of temporary easement has been added to the routeing guide data for that day that has had some inadvertent effects.

(The underlying cause does appear to be some (understandable) simplifications made when adding temporary electronic routeing guide easements that would otherwise have been extremely complicated to encode 100% accurately within the current system.)
 

maniacmartin

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If the ticket is issued to Exeter STNs it doesn't automatically expire at the first station in the group you reach. If you have a Birmingham STNs to Liverpool STNs ticket you can alight a LM train at Liverpool Lime Street and then catch a Merseyrail train to Liverpool James Street.

I was under the impression that once you enter the destination station group, you can proceed to other stations within the same group, but only as long as you don't pass through any stations that are outside of the group. This is how the rule is interpreted in London, with the Farringdon gap.
 

AlterEgo

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Indeed. Really a ticket is proof of a contract existing so the TOC have to offer you compensation if there's a significant change to the conditions after you make a purchase.

Are you sure?

British Airways routinely cancel tickets booked on obvious mistake fares, and not always immediately.
 

aformeruser

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Are you sure?

British Airways routinely cancel tickets booked on obvious mistake fares, and not always immediately.

A rail ticket indicates acceptance of NRCoC by all parties involved. I don't think NRCoC will work with airlines!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I was under the impression that once you enter the destination station group, you can proceed to other stations within the same group, but only as long as you don't pass through any stations that are outside of the group. This is how the rule is interpreted in London, with the Farringdon gap.

I thought for Manchester it was you can use a Manchester STNs ticket between Victoria and Piccadilly but not to end/break your journey at Salford Crescent or Salford Central.
 

richw

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Are you sure?

British Airways routinely cancel tickets booked on obvious mistake fares, and not always immediately.

Could be cancelled and refunded up until the issue of the ticket, carry the itinerary and print out NRE where it says that an itinerary from a journey planner is confirmation of valid route
 

AlterEgo

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A rail ticket indicates acceptance of NRCoC by all parties involved. I don't think NRCoC will work with airlines!

This is clearly a mistake fare/itinerary. It is obviously a mistake to the layman. Legally, I argue no TOC has to honour it. (BA - and other airlines - have conditions of carriage too!)

In practice, TOCs are instructed to accept mad itineraries to avoid bad press, and grief from serial exploiters.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Could be cancelled and refunded up until the issue of the ticket, carry the itinerary and print out NRE where it says that an itinerary from a journey planner is confirmation of valid route

Could be cancelled and refunded after, too. Legally.

Just because ticketing has happened doesn't mean the company can't cancel the contract. Clear mistake.
 

lejog

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It's a bit more complicated if the ticketing website actually accepts the booking and issues you a ticket.

If the train company issue you a ticket for a specific itinerary- even one as batpoo crazy as this- it gets tricky. It's a very similar reason why East Midlands Trains honoured off-peak return tickets from Kent to Yorkshire last year that were priced at £8.90 rather than £89, and why Scotrail honoured their Tweedbank screw up.

A rail ticket indicates acceptance of NRCoC by all parties involved. I don't think NRCoC will work with airlines!

Once the contract is in place (i.e. a ticket with an itinerary has been purchased) it could only be voided by a court. Search for unilateral mistake contract law on UK sites only for more details, Arctic Troll is correct it would get extremely complex and a TOC would be mad to try - it would cost them far more in legal fees that the cost of a ticket , even if they won the case.
 
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PermitToTravel

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I thought for Manchester it was you can use a Manchester STNs ticket between Victoria and Piccadilly but not to end/break your journey at Salford Crescent or Salford Central.

The rule isn't documented anywhere, because ****ing British railway; but either a separate rule applies in Manchester than at Farringdon, or no, it is not permissible to go Picc-Salford-Vic on a ticket to STNS
 

AlterEgo

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Once the contract is in place (i.e. a ticket with an itinerary has been purchased) it could only be voided by a court. Search for unilateral mistake contract law on UK sites only for more details, Arctic Troll is correct it would get extremely complex and a TOC would be mad to try - it would cost them far more in legal fees that the cost of a ticket , even if they won the case.

This isn't correct either. The retailer may void the contract themselves on their own authority of the price was a clear and obvious mistake which the purchaser should have noticed.

Citizens Advice has a handy page: https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/c...f-something-is-advertised-at-the-wrong-price/

If you have a contract, the company can’t usually cancel your order, even if they realise they’ve sold you something at the wrong price. They’ll only be able to cancel it if it was a genuine and honest mistake on their part that you should’ve noticed.
 

lejog

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It's a bit more complicated if the ticketing website actually accepts the booking and issues you a ticket.

If the train company issue you a ticket for a specific itinerary- even one as batpoo crazy as this- it gets tricky. It's a very similar reason why East Midlands Trains honoured off-peak return tickets from Kent to Yorkshire last year that were priced at £8.90 rather than £89, and why Scotrail honoured their Tweedbank screw up.

A rail ticket indicates acceptance of NRCoC by all parties involved. I don't think NRCoC will work with airlines!

Once the contract is in place (i.e. a ticket with an itinerary has been purchased) it could only be voided by a court. Search for unilateral mistake contract law on UK sites only for more details, Arctic Troll is correct it would get extremely complecx and a TOC would be mad to try - it would cost them far more in legal fees that the cost of a ticket , even if they won the case.

Are you sure?

British Airways routinely cancel tickets booked on obvious mistake fares, and not always immediately.

IIRC travel companies have some exclusions under unfair consumer contract legislation, allowing them to include unilateral termination in their ts&cs. However AFAIK the NRCoC does not include termination clauses of any kind.
 
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AlterEgo

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IIRC travel companies have some exclusions under unfair consumer contract legislation, allowing them to include unilateral termination in their ts&cs. However AFAIK the NRCoC does not include termination clauses of any kind.

The whole point is that when an honest mistake has occurred, no contract has actually been formed. This is because it can be reasonably determined that consideration hasn't been given to provide that service at that mistake price.

This doesn't have anything to do with anything in the NRCoC.

As you point out, a TOC wouldn't ever bother chasing it - it's a question for students of this kind of thing on shady Internet forums. ;)

I'll caveat my contributions by saying - IANAL!
 

richw

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The whole point is that when an honest mistake has occurred, no contract has actually been formed. This is because it can be reasonably determined that consideration hasn't been given to provide that service at that mistake price.

This doesn't have anything to do with anything in the NRCoC.

As you point out, a TOC wouldn't ever bother chasing it - it's a question for students of this kind of thing on shady Internet forums. ;)

I'll caveat my contributions by saying - IANAL!

I think your point fails in that it's a perfectly reasonable price to travel the 3-4 miles or so between origin and destination, so no clear error on price, Just this itinerary take the long way around - literally the whole south west!
 

AlterEgo

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I think your point fails in that it's a perfectly reasonable price to travel the 3-4 miles or so between origin and destination, so no clear error on price, Just this itinerary take the long way around - literally the whole south west!

The ticket enables someone to travel the whole of the south west - that's precisely what people are arguing.

It is clearly not what the TOC intends. Mistakes in contracts can be made with their things than price, of course. It's just that price examples are easiest to illustrate.
 

lejog

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The whole point is that when an honest mistake has occurred, no contract has actually been formed. This is because it can be reasonably determined that consideration hasn't been given to provide that service at that mistake price.

This doesn't have anything to do with anything in the NRCoC.

As you point out, a TOC wouldn't ever bother chasing it - it's a question for students of this kind of thing on shady Internet forums. ;)

I'll caveat my contributions by saying - IANAL!

Neither am I - but I do manage contracts! Once acceptance takes place, a contract is in place, which with the NRCoC having no change/termination (unlike BA's ts&cs), the contract can only be changed/terminated by the agreement of both parties or by the courts.

Which is not to say that the Consumer Association advice is unsound - its just a simplification.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The ticket enables someone to travel the whole of the south west - that's precisely what people are arguing.

It is clearly not what the TOC intends. Mistakes in contracts can be made with their things than price, of course. It's just that price examples are easiest to illustrate.

Indeed in commercial contracts mistakes in scope of supply are far, far more common than price mistakes.
 
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