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Is TPE InterCity or Regional Express, and what sort of stock should operate it as a result?

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Bletchleyite

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From: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ir-new-nova-trains.195468/page-2#post-4298962

If TPE isn't considered InterCity, then there's a passive pennine-shaped hole in the services that are considered inter-city.

That TPE services stop in more minor locations is perhaps down to fact that no-one has bothered to 4-track a serious TPML yet, and segregate local and inter-city traffic. The fact that the "Northern Powerhouse Rail" project is aligned more with TPE routes and destinations than XC destinations might tell us something about how TPE *ought* to be running, if only the infrastructure were there.[/QUOTE]

I'd agree that it should be more IC, but the infrastructure isn't there, and by and large people prefer a more frequent but slower regional express service than a fast but infrequent IC.

You could do it that way on the German model - you'd have something like the following with long end-doored locomotive hauled trains:
- 0.5tph IC Liverpool-Manchester Pic-Leeds-York-possibly Darlo-Durham-Newcastle
- 0.5tph IC Liverpool-Manchester Pic-Leeds-Hull

And these using stock using shorter trains with doors at thirds:
- 0.5tph RE Liverpool-Newcastle, present TPE stopping pattern
- 0.5tph RE Liverpool-Hull, present TPE stopping pattern
- 0.5tph of RB (all stations) on sections of those routes
- plus a bit more infill. South TPE is definitely RE rather than IC (the IC would be Liverpool-Notts, and would also be 0.5tph Liverpool-Manchester Pic-Sheffield-Nottingham plus 0.5tph RE)

That would fit the present lines, but it isn't, I'm sure, what people would want.

So if we accept that the present service is a high-frequency RE, it needs suitable stock for taking high loadings, lots of passenger boarding/alighting, short stops, quicker turnarounds, easy circulation and high standing capacity for commuter times - so something like a Class 170, 185 or 195, not end-doored IC layout coaches. I don't deny they look nice, but they will return us to the days of the morning peak stop at Manchester Oxford Road taking well over 5 minutes, for example.
 
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Tetchytyke

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The 185s were deliberately designed with 1/3 doors because of dwell times. I used to be a regular commuter out of Leeds in the morning peak back when TPE used 158s, and it easily took five minutes or more for the train to empty of inbound commuters before I could get on. The 185s were a massive improvement.

The end-doors on the new trains are wider than those on the 158, and don't have such a painfully slow opening mechanism. So hopefully dwell times won't go back up too badly.

But TPE has never been a true Intercity operation, it's always been a regional express. The core service across the Pennines is so short it doesn't need the bells and whistles. What confuses things now is that TPE's reach has gradually expanded into services which historically were long-distance IC services.
 

Starmill

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I would imagine that the calls at Dewsbury and Stalybridge, for commuter flows to Leeds and Manchester city centres respectively, will cause particular problems when they are operated by the locomotive-hauled sets.

All day from Dewsbury there are 2 trains an hour, the services to Redcar Central and to Newcastle, which call. The same calls are made in the other direction. I don't see how its sustainable to use the locomotive hauled sets or 802s on these. Of course, Hull services, which are 185s, don't call. Not even for the morning or evening peaks. The stopping train obviously calls all day and will continue to be a 185, but it's slower and is less targeted by Dewsbury passengers.

Liverpool <> Scarborough services do not currently call at Stalybridge (with a handful of exceptions), but from the new timetable will begin doing so. Again I should think this will be very popular with daily commuters because it will be the quickest service.
 

Senex

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It's both, depending on which bit you're looking at.
And what it is at present doesn't serve either the inter-city passengers or the regional passengers well. What's needed is a German-type three-way split between IC, RE, and RB to meet the needs of the three rather different markets, but of course you can't do that on the trans-Pennine infrastructure or with the present franchising model. And what is the case for Liverpool/Manchester−Scotland being with TPE at all rather than being where it seems much more logically to belong, as part of the West Coast franchise? (And yes, I do know the historic reasons why it's thus.)
 

mike57

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As a regular TPE user from Scarborough to the North West, 1 or 2 return journeys a week, my average journey time to or from Manchester is 2 hours (when its on time or if it runs at all, but that is a different story). On this length of journey I want an 'Inter City' experience. The new loco hauled rolling stock is a big improvement in this respect, quieter, smoother, and no hot and cold at every stop which is what tends to happen on the 185s. This is made worse on the 185's if you have the misfortune to be on one of the trains which make the 'commuter stop' calls. The train will end up being rammed during the rush hour to the point where even visiting the toilet is impossible.

As the OP says trying to offer a commuter and inter city operation on a 2 track railway with minimal overtaking opportunities is difficult. This is born out by the debacle which was the May 2018 timetable change. Adding the extra service pushed the system over the edge, and reliability plummeted, and its still unreliable. Late running is endemic, with many services 20 mins plus late arriving into Scarborough, and no doubt similar problems for the other destinations.

The only solution given the current infrastructure is to run fewer longer trains. The Inter City trains would just stop Leeds Huddersfield Manchester, with proper inter city rolling stock, possibly 3tph. Stoppers and perhaps 1 tph semi fast then run with 'commuter friendly stock' threaded between these services. All trains to be as long as platform lengths will allow.

The current attempt at a service is upsetting all users because trains are running late enough to miss connections. or are cancelled or stopped short, as an example over the last week out of 18 arrivals into Scarborough each day there have been around 2 cancellations and up to half the trains have been 20 ish minutes late by the time they arrive into York although timetabling padding adds 6 minutes to the York Scarborough journey which make the Scarborough figures look better.

Prior to May 2018 the service was reliable, I would estimate cancellations were less than 1 per week and late running was the exception rather than the rule, even the the 8 minute connections at Seamer would work most of the time. Its obvious therefore that the problem is the new timetable. So first come up with a timetable similar to the pre May 2018 one, and then see how the available rolling stock is best deployed.

Whilst having the right sort of rolling stock is a nice to have until the service has a reasonable level of reliability (i.e. back to pre May 2018 levels) concerns over rolling stock are less important, I would rather arrive on time in something that is less than optimum in terms of comfort/suitability than have an hours wait because the service is cancelled or arrive late which is the current situation.

But to answer the original question TPE NE to Liverpool/Manchester Airport services probably should be inter city, with other services even if run by TPE not branded ...Express.
 

tbtc

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Is TPE InterCity or Regional Express?

Does it really matter? Does everything have to be black/white?

I really wish we could get away from this compartmentalised view of the railways, where everything is either one thing or another, it's very simplistic - possibly because of the enthusiast mentality (e.g. a 110mph air conditioned EMU with First Class still gets dismissed as "suburban" because of snobbery about the doors), possibly because BR had clearly defined "sectors" and people are still wedded to those days?

Lots of routes are messy compromises - e.g. the TPE route is the fastest service from Liverpool/ Manchester Airport to York but then the slowest service from York to Newcastle (and the only service from York to Scarborough/ Middlesbrough). Is that terrible? Can the railway not have fifty shades of grey?

Lots of routes have "long distance high speed" trains stopping at "local" stations that they maybe wouldn't stop at if you were starting from scratch today - but that's where we are - you could argue that the Huddersfield/ Dewsbury stops slow TPE down but there's no spare capacity for Northern to provide services (especially not fast services) - it'd be a massive downgrade - part of the economy in places like Huddersfield is built upon the ideal commuter territory where people have fast frequent services into nearby big cities.

By the same token, should LNER remove their Wakefield calls, since they are used by short distance commuters? Should Virgin remove their Stockport calls? Or is it okay for these TOCs to have short distance calls without the requirement for then to have "commuter" doors?
 

2L70

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Started out as Regional Express service similar to Central Trains Citylink/Wales and Borders Alphaline with the intention of making it better than ATN Transpennine.

Then the Rail Regulators changed the goalposts... getting the Blackpool Services and dumping them, the weird decision of getting Scottish Services from XC, and then the latest move into West Yorkshire stoppers. So it’s more like the old ATN(with a express service tacked on) these days.
 

6Gman

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Is TPE InterCity or Regional Express?

Does it really matter? Does everything have to be black/white?

I really wish we could get

This.

TPE is inter-city if you're travelling from Manchester to Edinburgh.

Regional express (whatever that means) if it's Preston to Manchester.

Even though both are cities.
 

Starmill

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Is TPE InterCity or Regional Express?

Does it really matter? Does everything have to be black/white?
This is a bit of a straw man.

There is a simple question being asked in this thread: what sort of rolling stock is appropriate for North TransPennine trains?

You bring up Manchester to London and Leeds to London. Is anyone arguing that the layout of the current rolling stock is inappropriate? Because I've literally never heard anyone arguing about that.

North TPE is quite different. If 9*26m trains were going be working Liverpool to Newcastle services, I'd probably say no problem. But the reality is that for new rolling stock many 5*22m trains, incorporating a very large proportion of First Class, were chosen. That's a different case for calls at Dewsbury and Stalybridge than an 11 car 390 calling at Stockport, or pair of 5 car 801s at Wakefield Westgate.

The ratio of short distance to long distance travellers on services from Leeds to London when they leave Leeds in the afternoon on an IC225 set is lower than the ratio of short distance to long distance travellers on 3 car 185 leaving Leeds at the same time.

The view is not compartmentalised. If it were, we wouldn't allow Reading to London passengers onto trains from the South West and South Wales, or Milton Keynes to London passengers to use the train from Liverpool Lime Street. We do, though, and although it's not perfect, it's not a good reason to change the type of rolling stock. The question being legitimately asked here is: does TPE have that critical mass or not? It's unclear. But probably not.
 
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Tetchytyke

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it's very simplistic - possibly because of the enthusiast mentality (e.g. a 110mph air conditioned EMU with First Class still gets dismissed as "suburban" because of snobbery about the doors)

I don't think it is snobbery. The doors in the position they are in do have an effect on comfort. In winter it lets the cold in and in summer it lets the cold out. If you're on the train 30 minutes it's fine, if you're on it two hours it grates.

There's a reason the 158s and even the 156s were specified with internal vestibule doors. And there's a reason SWT ordered a different version of the Desiro for their long-distance services.

The compromise on TPE is harder because the short commuter journeys aren't incidental to the main journey, unlike your other examples of Wakefield or Stockport.
 

3141

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Is TPE InterCity or Regional Express?

Does it really matter? Does everything have to be black/white?

This is a bit of a straw man.

There is a simple question being asked in this thread: what sort of rolling stock is appropriate for North TransPennine trains?...

….North TPE is quite different. If 9*26m trains were going be working Liverpool to Newcastle services, I'd probably say no problem. But the reality is that for new rolling stock many 5*22m trains, incorporating a very large proportion of First Class, were chosen. That's a different case for calls at Dewsbury and Stalybridge than an 11 car 390 calling at Stockport, or pair of 5 car 801s at Wakefield Westgate.

I think tbtc makes a valid point in relation to the first part of the title of this thread, and Starmill is addressing the second part - and slightly modifying it.

When BR introduced inter city trains they were fast long distance services connecting large and important cities, but inevitably, because of historical, geographic and demographic factors some of them made calls at places that were less important and relatively close together. TPE does a lot of that, and though it literally operates between certain cities (like Cross Country), I suspect that a larger proportion of its passengers are taking shorter journeys than is the case with LNER and Virgin West Coast. That creates contradictory demands about the most suitable type of rolling stock, and in addition there's the issue of the length of train over some sections of TPE's routes, as Starmill has observed.

I might call TPE (and CrossCountry) Inter-urban, to try to distinguish it from Inter City, but I don't think that's particular helpful really, though possibly better than those German categories R this and R that, which are meaningless to those who aren't habitués of German railways. The most practical approach would be to consider what sort of journeys are made by the majority of TPE's passengers. If they are mostly shorter journeys on services which, because of the infrastructure limitations, are stopping every 15 - 30 minutes, then stock with doors at thirds seems most suitable, since shorter journeys imply larger number of passengers getting on or off at many of the stops. It might be nicer for passengers travelling longer distances to have coaches with end doors, but if the trains shouldn't be designed for them if they are the minority.

So why did TPE order Mark 5 coaches and 802s? Presumably the Invitation to Tender required such trains, and if TPE hoped to develop the longer-distance traffic they may have thought that end-doored stock would have a greater appeal. We'll see how well it works with the sort of traffic the TPE routes actually have.
 

Tetchytyke

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So why did TPE order Mark 5 coaches and 802s?

I imagine they ordered IETs because they were already on order for other TOCs, and so were a competitive price.

The 185s/350s are perfect for rush hour from Manchester to Preston/Huddersfield/Leeds. Less so for a three hour schlep from Edinburgh.

I might call TPE (and CrossCountry) Inter-urban, to try to distinguish it from Inter City, but I don't think that's particular helpful really

The lack of proper catering puts XC and TPE in the same category!
 

Starmill

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Another thing to consider is this: if people want fewer but longer trains to run, are they prepared to accept the principle of a very long train being around 100% occupied for 12 minutes between Leeds and Dewsbury, and then loaded 20 - 30% for the remaining several hours of the journey from Leeds to Edinburgh?
 

Bletchleyite

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Is TPE InterCity or Regional Express?

Does it really matter? Does everything have to be black/white?

It doesn't. But my point was that InterCity style end-doored coaches are not the best thing for this kind of "blurred" RE/IC service - the Class 185, apart from the sets being too short for such purposes, is much better suited, as would be a 170 or 195 with First Class. IC style seating (good legroom, 2+2 Std 2+1 First) is needed, but you also need doors at quarters or thirds for ease of access and cramming peak time crowds in the vestibules.

Most of TPE is much like the LNR Trent Valley services - hybrid commuter and long distance - and I don't think (other than the sham First Class) that anyone would argue that an 8-car Class 350 formation (not /2) was not the ideal rolling stock for that service.

End doored coaches don't work well for anything involving standing loads. VTWC mostly doesn't have standing loads, say, but TPE does and still will because of the commuter loadings.

The one exception is the Manchester Airport to Glasgow/Edinburgh service which is "true IC" even to the extent of telling Bolton commuters to get lost.
 
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Bletchleyite

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Another thing to consider is this: if people want fewer but longer trains to run, are they prepared to accept the principle of a very long train being around 100% occupied for 12 minutes between Leeds and Dewsbury, and then loaded 20 - 30% for the remaining several hours of the journey from Leeds to Edinburgh?

Dewsbury would not be an IC stop, it's a local station to be served by a RE. A true TPE IC would have only about 5 stops - for the main North TPE it'd be something like Liverpool, Manchester Vic/Pic as appropriate, Leeds, York, Durham, Newcastle only. (Then Edinburgh only after that, if we're doing that - there would be absolutely no case whatsoever for any train serving a local station like Dewsbury going past Leeds).

I'm not familiar with the exact patterns round there, but in the German scenario Dewsbury-Leeds would be served by an hourly or two-hourly Manchester-Leeds RE plus an hourly or two-hourly Huddersfield to Leeds all stops RB.

I'm not actively proposing this - but I am saying this is the kind of service pattern class 802 and the Mk5 coaches are suited to. A 5-car 24m-vehicle bi-mode with doors at 1/4 and 3/4 and IC type seating (an uprated 185, essentially) is what would suit the hybrid service TPE actually run.
 
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Starmill

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I'm not familiar with the exact patterns round there, but in the German scenario Dewsbury-Leeds would be served by an hourly or two-hourly Manchester-Leeds RE plus an hourly or two-hourly Huddersfield to Leeds all stops RB.
Only one service per hour? Well, there are currently four, with five at peak, and those massively oversubscribed most of the time.

Dewsbury is only ten miles from Leeds city centre, so presumably you would also advocate the construction of a completely new dedicated S-Bahn line starting in Dewsbury, going via Leeds and terminating somewhere on the far side of the city (Wetherby? It's about the same distance) with say six services per hour?

I think the thing about all of this is: for a conurbation like West Yorkshire, that's realistic. If it were, an hourly service from the existing station on each of two routes to Manchester might be more than enough. But it would be investment in orders of magnitude of hundreds of billions. Nobody is going to propose or consider it.
 

Alan2603

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Dewsbury would not be an IC stop, it's a local station to be served by a RE. A true TPE IC would have only about 5 stops - for the main North TPE it'd be something like Liverpool, Manchester Vic/Pic as appropriate, Leeds, York, Durham, Newcastle only. (Then Edinburgh only after that, if we're doing that - there would be absolutely no case whatsoever for any train serving a local station like Dewsbury going past Leeds).

I think I would put Darlington into that service in lieu of Durham (or keep both). Okay, Durham is a city, but Darlington is the interchange station for a lot of the Tees Valley/Bishop Auckland etc. Plus a lot of people in the top parts of North Yorkshire use Darlington as their main station.
 

Ih8earlies

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There's a long history of TPE declaring themselves to be an Intercity Operator - until major pay/t&c negotiations come around then suddenly they are only a Regional Operator.

Any Guard or Driver who has been in the job at TPE for a while will be aware of this see-sawing of policy.
 

Mr Mean

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There should be a new express line between Leeds and Manchester which I think Northern Powerhouse Rail is trying to do.

The existing route between Leeds and Manchester should be served by all stop long and frequent trains (maybe similar to 8 car metropolitan line trains). An every 15 minute service (or better) operated by long, spacious trains calling at all stops would massively boost commuting by rail across the North.

Existing stations would need work and new ones could be built but it would provide a step change for millions of people. It would probably cost a whole lot less than HS2 too!
 

LittleAH

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There should be a new express line between Leeds and Manchester which I think Northern Powerhouse Rail is trying to do.

The existing route between Leeds and Manchester should be served by all stop long and frequent trains (maybe similar to 8 car metropolitan line trains). An every 15 minute service (or better) operated by long, spacious trains calling at all stops would massively boost commuting by rail across the North.

Existing stations would need work and new ones could be built but it would provide a step change for millions of people. It would probably cost a whole lot less than HS2 too!

So as someone who lives around Huddersfield and uses the railway on a daily basis, I would have to get an all stop service to Leeds?

Sorry, but there are some barmy ideas floated about on here. The beauty of TPE is the connectivity - the fact I can directly see a supplier near Newton Le Willows and have a business meeting in York fairly quickly, on good trains without changing and get work done on board is what makes TPE attractive.

Regional/intercity? It's both.
 

Mr Mean

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No, you misunderstand my point. The transpennine route should be split into 2 separate services which NPR is trying to achieve. A new express route calling only at larger stations and the existing route converted into a frequent metro style service.

This would improve the long distance services by speeding them up and removing shorter distance crowds, creating a proper intercity style service. The metro service would dramatically increase rail patronage across the north and take thousands of cars off the roads and by stopping at all stations frequently it would improve connectivity between areas along the route.

Currently TPE is trying to be all things to all men. It's currently failing in all regards with delays, overcrowding and cancellations.
 

JohnB57

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No, you misunderstand my point. The transpennine route should be split into 2 separate services which NPR is trying to achieve. A new express route calling only at larger stations and the existing route converted into a frequent metro style service.
Your post also confuses me a little.

Do you mean splitting express and stopper services on the current route - as was the case until fairly recently - or a new express route altogether? If the latter, what are your expected route details?
 

Bletchleyite

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So as someone who lives around Huddersfield and uses the railway on a daily basis, I would have to get an all stop service to Leeds

If you're talking about the "DB model", which I don't actually advocate, you'd have a regional express service about once an hour that would call at major stations from Manchester to Leeds including Huddersfield and would be operated using regional rolling stock with doors at thirds.

Sorry, but there are some barmy ideas floated about on here. The beauty of TPE is the connectivity - the fact I can directly see a supplier near Newton Le Willows and have a business meeting in York fairly quickly, on good trains without changing and get work done on board is what makes TPE attractive.

Regional/intercity? It's both.

It's not an idea nor do I advocate it. The reason I brought it up is that it is how you could operate a split regional/IC service on the 2-track infrastructure we have, if people want TPE to be IC. TPE indeed is an odd hybrid, and for that it requires hybrid rolling stock - good quality seating with lots of tables, 2+2 Standard and 2+1 First, lots of luggage space and catering - but it also needs commuter features like wide double doors at thirds/quarters with standbacks to allow for very quick circulation when loadings are high.

Most of TPE is a bit like, as I said, the WCML Trent Valley local service, though perhaps with a little more intermediate churn. I struggle to think of anything more suited to that than 8-car Class 350 formations.

Other than being too short the Class 185 does this quite well (as do the 350s on the Scottish services - but as I've said these are true IC and probably don't actually need that feature). The new stock, nice though it all is, doesn't, and I suspect as a result dwell times will noticeably increase.
 

nr758123

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Currently TPE is trying to be all things to all men. It's currently failing in all regards with delays, overcrowding and cancellations.

It's trying to be all things to all people because it has to be. The infrastructure isn't there to separate out commuter, regional and intercity and run three different types of service down a congested two-track railway.

The December 2019 timetable is probably the best that can be achieved with the current infrastructure.

Since it seems that the much-delayed Transpennine Route Upgrade will consist of four-tracking from Huddersfield to Ravensthorpe and not much else, those compromises will still need to be made.
 

Mr Mean

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Your post also confuses me a little.

Do you mean splitting express and stopper services on the current route - as was the case until fairly recently - or a new express route altogether? If the latter, what are your expected route details?

As I understand it, NPR will be a new route entirely between Leeds and Manchester. This would take all of the Intercity traffic.

The existing route is getting upgraded with separation Ravensthorpe to Hudds. There has also been talk of passing loops west of Huddersfield. This could accommodate an every 15 minute 8 car all stop metro service between Leeds and Manchester and potentially also a semi fast Manc-Staly-Hudd-Dews-Leeds service every 30 mins.

For me the focus should be on improving local routes with increased frequency and capacity rather than knocking 3 or 4 minutes off longer distance services. In an ideal world the local routes in the North would operate in a similar manner to the London Overground. Intercity would be separated as much as possible.
 

Metal_gee_man

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Am I the only person thinking they missed a trick, fast loading requires pretty large double width one on one off doors and long distance commuters want vestibules for comfort.
Well start with 26m stock make the vestibules 1.8m wide fit double commuter style doors and create a hybrid that will eat commuters like the Thameslink Class 700s but have the IC comforts surely you'd assume this was achievable.
 
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