Is train driving considered a skilled or semi skilled profession?

[Stigy]

Well drivers are issued with a train driving licence but the last time I checked it wasn't a professional qualification. Let's make no mistake, all members of the forum know what's involved in becoming a train driver and a tiny proportion of them actually have what it takes. However, until responsibility for a driver's training and professional development is transferred to a body that represents their interests then they can't be defined as having a profession.
Professionalisation and professionalism shouldn't be conflated either.

Is the ORR not classed as a regulatory body? What about the RSSB? It’s not just internal assessment and licensing. Standards are set and have to be adhered to. An increasing number of companies are also now using apprenticeships for their trainee drivers, which does equate to a professional qualification too.

 

[eoff]

I'm not sure we will find hard and fast rules for how these terms (skilled, semi-skilled and professional) should be applied.

With professional there is definitely a category where a body/society exists that has specific entrance requirements and standards for people working in a field, for example for teachers, lawyers, engineers, architects etc.
So for example I would think of a buliding-site electrician as a tradesperson and an electrical engineer designing installations as a professional, others may disagree. The former is still working to standards in their work.

 

[43066]

Train driving isn't a profession at all, not by the definition of a profession at least. It's certainly an occupation though. Professions and the route to professionalisation is a long one and features aspects like autonomy and a clear framework for continuous professional development outlined and controlled by the professional body that represents its members. Train driving doesn't have this so is not a true profession. Yes, drivers are expected to act 'professionally' but that's an entirely different thing.

Drivers do not belong to a professional body that represents their interests, they don't have any control over their curriculum framework and importantly, they don't need any higher educational qualifications to carry out their jobs, therefore train driving is not a profession, neither is flying a plane.

It definitely is a skilled role though. Maybe you can add another poll asking if people believe that train driving is or is not a profession?

I’d generally agree with this.

“Professional” to me equals (non exhaustively): solicitor; barrister; doctor; engineer; architect etc. Professional roles involve amassing a deep expertise in a particular area, making judgements and advising clients/patients based on that expertise (and generally being subject to a regulatory body while doing so). To some extent the definition has been stretched to breaking point as some roles such as nursing have been “professionalised”, but still wouldn’t be a “professional” role in the same sense.

Train driving (and being a pilot, being a nurse, being a paramedic) is more about acquiring a niche skill and following procedures to a high standard. Personally I’d put it in the same category as skilled tradesman.

 

[387star]

Train driving requires continuous learning and keeping up to date with regs. That said it's the sort of job where training is very intense (I heard someone was recently let go for failing traction twice) but with the right mindset and ability once qualified the day to day job is very easy and that's where the danger of complacency creeps in.

As mentioned moving the train is basically child's play it's the route knowledge and anticipation of risk as well as memory retention and good communication that is what makes the job complex.

I think people have asked the question as jealousy arises with our pay packet but it's certainly not a job anyone can do. I'd say semi-skilled may be accurate simply because post training there us little need for creative thinking or independent decision making

 

[Stigy]

I’d generally agree with this.

“Professional” to me equals (non exhaustively): solicitor; barrister; doctor; engineer; architect etc. Professional roles involve amassing a deep expertise in a particular area, making judgements and advising clients/patients based on that expertise (and generally being subject to a regulatory body while doing so). To some extent the definition has been stretched to breaking point as some roles such as nursing have been “professionalised”, but still wouldn’t be a “professional” role in the same sense.

Train driving (and being a pilot, being a nurse, being a paramedic) is more about acquiring a niche skill and following procedures to a high standard. Personally I’d put it in the same category as skilled tradesman.

Nursing/Paramedic roles, would fall under “profession” using the examples you gave surely? Paramedics and Nurses go to university, often advise on health matters and to an extent diagnose illnesses, and can also prescribe medication in many circumstances. They can also administer drugs and certify death.

 

[43066]

Nursing/Paramedic roles, would fall under “profession” using the examples you gave surely? Paramedics and Nurses go to university, often advise on health matters and to an extent diagnose illnesses, and can also prescribe medication in many circumstances. They can also administer drugs and certify death.

As a solicitor/accountant, someone will sit in front of you and will ask: “in your opinion, how do I deal with X?”, and you will need to give them your view.

As a train driver you do the job that’s required of you.

 

[nottsnurse]

“Professional” to me equals (non exhaustively): solicitor; barrister; doctor; engineer; architect etc. Professional roles involve amassing a deep expertise in a particular area, making judgements and advising clients/patients based on that expertise (and generally being subject to a regulatory body while doing so). To some extent the definition has been stretched to breaking point as some roles such as nursing have been “professionalised”, but still wouldn’t be a “professional” role in the same sense.

Interesting. To take your points one by one;

"Professional roles involve amassing a deep expertise in a particular area" - I'm currently completing my MsC in Critical Care and am (among other things) an ALS instructor (regularly teaching medics and other staff Advance Life Support skills and procedures).

"...making judgements and advising clients/patients based on that expertise..." - I am, as with my medic colleagues, an independent practitioner. I regularly attend to, assess and treat patients without need to refer to non-nursing staff and provide advice and treatment to patients.

"...(and generally being subject to a regulatory body while doing so)..." - That'll be the Nursing and Midwifery Council, the regulatory body of, err, nurses and midwives.

"...To some extent the definition has been stretched to breaking point as some roles such as nursing have been “professionalised”..." - Nursing is a profession by virtue of the roles undertaken by those who work within it and asked of it. It hasn't been artificially "professionalised".

"...but still wouldn’t be a “professional” role in the same sense..." - Given the above examination of your comments, do you still stand by this? If so, why and how?

I do fear that some still see nurses as dolly birds in little hats who run around with bed pans all day, giggling at doctors comments. This is a societal issue, not one that relates to nursing not being a profession.

 

[Stigy]

As a solicitor/accountant, someone will sit in front of you and will ask: “in your opinion, how do I deal with X?”, and you will need to give them your view.

As a train driver you do the job that’s required of you.

I agree. However, that doesn’t explain or give an argument against the Nurse/Paramedic explanation in the post of mine you quoted.

 

[greyman42]

Nursing/Paramedic roles, would fall under “profession” using the examples you gave surely? Paramedics and Nurses go to university, often advise on health matters and to an extent diagnose illnesses, and can also prescribe medication in many circumstances. They can also administer drugs and certify death.

Nowadays it seems like just about everyone goes to university.

 

[43066]

"Professional roles involve amassing a deep expertise in a particular area" - I'm currently completing my MsC in Critical Care and am (among other things) an ALS instructor (regularly teaching medics and other staff Advance Life Support skills and procedures).

Ultimately you can be a nurse without a degree, becoming a doctor takes six years after A levels. It’s surprising “critical care” is the subject of a masters degree. Surely that’s a vocational area, rather than a traditional academic subject?

"...making judgements and advising clients/patients based on that expertise..." - I am, as with my medic colleagues, an independent practitioner. I regularly attend to, assess and treat patients without need to refer to non-nursing staff and provide advice and treatment to patients.

But to a lesser extent than a doctor can. Plumbers and electricians are also independent. That doesn’t make them professionals in the way most people would consider the meaning of the term.

"...(and generally being subject to a regulatory body while doing so)..." - That'll be the Nursing and Midwifery Council, the regulatory body of, err, nurses and midwives.

Being regulated is part of it, but not all of it. TfL regulates taxi drivers, I don’t think anyone would say they were professionals. CILEX regulates legal executives, they aren’t considered professionals in the same way that solicitor is (despite also being legally qualified and being able to do some of the same work as a solicitor).

Given the above examination of your comments, do you still stand by this? If so, why and how?

Yes I do stand by it. As a nurse you will never be viewed as a traditional “professional” in the same way as you would be if you were a doctor.

I do fear that some still see nurses as dolly birds in little hats who run around with bed pans all day, giggling at doctors comments. This is a societal issue, not one that relates to nursing not being a profession.

Anyone who thinks that is misguided, clearly being a nurse is a valued and important role (although if people looking down on your job bothers you, try being a train a driver for a day ). Nursing has been expanded beyond all recognition, chiefly because the NHS doesn’t have enough doctors. Personally (along with many other people) I’d still say it’s an occupation, rather than a profession.

I agree. However, that doesn’t explain or give an argument against the Nurse/Paramedic explanation in the post of mine you quoted.

Professionalised, yes, but still not most peoples’ idea of traditional professions. By the same token these days you can become a solicitor or accountant without going to university - so again going to university or not is only part of it.

It really shouldn’t matter and I don’t know why people get so het up about it! There’s no shame in doing a job which isn’t a traditional profession.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

The job would still be extremely skilled if drivers were given better traction training and allowed / told to fix trains and diagnose at the line side when things went wrong. When you now see the quality of traction training in some companies it’s gone down to “phone a friend at a ROC” and “isolate what we tell you to”. They even tell you the speeds you’re allowed to run at.

And don’t get me started on how some managers justify their own existence by insisting on stupidly excessive defensive driving that just causes delays; or the sort of idiocy that says in leaf fall you should proactively break too hard to provoke WSP activity that could lead to a slide. Let the driver, be the driver!

 

[irish_rail]

The job would still be extremely skilled if drivers were given better traction training and allowed / told to fix trains and diagnose at the line side when things went wrong. When you now see the quality of traction training in some companies it’s gone down to “phone a friend at a ROC” and “isolate what we tell you to”. They even tell you the speeds you’re allowed to run at.

And don’t get me started on how some managers justify their own existence by insisting on stupidly excessive defensive driving that just causes delays; or the sort of idiocy that says in leaf fall you should proactively break too hard to provoke WSP activity that could lead to a slide. Let the driver, be the driver!

Agree on the ridiculously defensive driving part. Some newer drivers (and some not so new!) , drive so slow that they lose time and cause delays. Yet this is encouraged and positively applauded by some managers.

 

[Stigy]

Agree on the ridiculously defensive driving part. Some newer drivers (and some not so new!) , drive so slow that they lose time and cause delays. Yet this is encouraged and positively applauded by some managers.

I feel that’s partly because there’s a lot of scare mongering about the likelihood of an incident, and the repercussions of having one. Right through the training school trainees seem to be generally told about incidents, to the extent that it almost scares them in to driving too slowly.

I’ve been driving 10 months on my own, and when I started we didn’t have the sort of low adhesion you get at this time of the year, so you could drive less defensively as a whole, but with a few incidents happening with other drivers in the depot and the almost obligatory email from local management saying how this lets the depot down etc etc, it’s very nerve racking being a new driver, and in my opinion that almost induces incidents

On my line of route at least, it’s quite easy to keep to time, and I’ve certainly never driven over defensively, but I can definitely see why some PQA drivers would.

 

[newtownmgr]

Yes it is skilled. As reflected in both the pay for doing the job & the length of time it takes to train a new driver. Yes new trains may seem easier to drive but they bring different skills to the fore.
There seems to be a lot of people on here who are disparaging of the driving grade. I wonder how many of these have actually driven a train other than on a simulator or driver experience day at 25mph!
We have a conductor who is critical of the driving grade at one of the depots we work with, yet he’s tried several times to get into the grade. May explain his & some peoples attitude/comments.
As regards to our pay & ability to strike to get what we want. We have a union & we have the right to stand up & protect our grade. Can’t recall the last time we had a strike but we have had work to rules (no overtime) which we have been slated for yet we are not obliged to work overtime which people forget. DRI was supposed to eliminate overtime, yet 25 years after most DRI’s were implemented we are still working due the industry failing to recruit/retain the amount of drivers needed, which then brings us into the levels pay.

 

[RSDonovan]

In response to this, and the OP's question, train guards, and several other railway ops grades, are eligible for skilled worker visas:

Retail service manager (railways)
Station assistant (underground railway)
Ticket inspector (railways)
Train conductor
Train manager

Skilled Worker visa: eligible occupations and codes

www.gov.uk

I don't see any connection between A-level grade and skill

 

[43066]

I’ve been driving 10 months on my own, and when I started we didn’t have the sort of low adhesion you get at this time of the year, so you could drive less defensively as a whole, but with a few incidents happening with other drivers in the depot and the almost obligatory email from local management saying how this lets the depot down etc etc, it’s very nerve racking being a new driver, and in my opinion that almost induces incidents

Just brake earlier and lighter is the best advice, if it picks the wheels up just leave it in. I’ve not found my leaf fall seasons too bad so far, fingers crossed for the fifth one! Network rail seem very on top of defoliation which helps (apparently great deal more in the last few years than previously). Ironically worst place you can be is following the RHTT aka “the squirter”!

On my line of route at least, it’s quite easy to keep to time, and I’ve certainly never driven over defensively, but I can definitely see why some PQA drivers would.

I’ve always found it easy to drive defensively and keep to time. If you’re running on restrictive aspects, the delay is on the signaller, what’s the point of rushing about chasing reds?

 

[nottsnurse]

Ultimately you can be a nurse without a degree, becoming a doctor takes six years after A levels. It’s surprising “critical care” is the subject of a masters degree. Surely that’s a vocational area, rather than a traditional academic subject?

This is incorrect.

The only method of becoming a Registered Nurse/Midwife is to undertake a degree level course run through or overseen by a university.

After 'Project 2000' came into effect in 1990 the primary method of training registered nurses was through universities until, in 2000, it became the sole method of training registered nurses.

Currently it is possible to train as a 'Nursing Associate' through NHS trusts, but again, these courses are overseen and accredited by universities.

As for your comment regarding medic training, we are completely different professions so have very different training processes. You may as well compare Accountants and Lawyers. They may work with each other in the same building but they are colleagues rather than subordinate to one or the other.

For instance, very little training for medics, until they qualify, is done in practice. Their's is a far more theoretical process at university than nursing is, hence why FY1/2 medics spend so much of their time developing their clinical skills.

 

[matacaster]

Skilled = few spads, unskilled = lots of spads?

 

[Stigy]

Just brake earlier and lighter is the best advice, if it picks the wheels up just leave it in. I’ve not found my leaf fall seasons too bad so far, fingers crossed for the fifth one! Network rail seem very on top of defoliation which helps (apparently great deal more in the last few years than previously). Ironically worst place you can be is following the RHTT aka “the squirter”!



I’ve always found it easy to drive defensively and keep to time. If you’re running on restrictive aspects, the delay is on the signaller, what’s the point of rushing about chasing reds?

I’ve found the same regarding the RHTT and being the first train behind it. I’ve also been told that it used to be far worse at this time of the year too. With NWR doing their thing, and decent WSP systems I guess it all helps.

 

[SA91]

Yes I do stand by it. As a nurse you will never be viewed as a traditional “professional” in the same way as you would be if you were a doctor.

Nurses are viewed as a Healthcare Professional (HCP) just as a practitioner, speech therapist, physician associate, pharmacist etc. Nurse and Doctor are 2 different professions, but both professionals.

 

[eoff]

This is incorrect.

The only method of becoming a Registered Nurse/Midwife is to undertake a degree level course run through or overseen by a university.

After 'Project 2000' came into effect in 1990 the primary method of training registered nurses was through universities until, in 2000, it became the sole method of training registered nurses.

Currently it is possible to train as a 'Nursing Associate' through NHS trusts, but again, these courses are overseen and accredited by universities.

I know someone who wants to work for the ambulance service. This is possible (she has a background and qualifications/training in working with severely disabled children) assuming she can get a driving test. It seems that to progress to a paramedic is now impossible without a degree, this used to be possible with on the job training.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Train driving requires continuous learning and keeping up to date with regs.
I think people have asked the question as jealousy arises with our pay packet but it's certainly not a job anyone can do. I'd say semi-skilled may be accurate simply because post training there us little need for creative thinking or independent decision making

well you won’t get that jealousy from me. Train drivers in effect have a lot of people’s lives in their hands. They are well worth what they are paid.

 

[Stigy]

I know someone who wants to work for the ambulance service. This is possible (she has a background and qualifications/training in working with severely disabled children) assuming she can get a driving test. It seems that to progress to a paramedic is now impossible without a degree, this used to be possible with on the job training.

Most trusts offer an Apprenticeship route to becoming a paramedic these days, but the route is usually from within (so you’d start as an Emergency Care Assistant and apply from there). Some trusts did run AAP (Associate Ambulance Practitioner) courses but not sure if they do anymore? There’s still the traditional Uni route too though and a lot of trusts run these alongside other routes.