Is Travel from the Wirral to Liverpool SUbject to a 'Wirral Tax'

[Ianigsy]

Moderator Note - split from:

Merseytravel Saveaway - Which Buses Is It Valid On?

Does anyone know which buses the Merseytravel Saveaway ticket is valid on? Or more specifically which companies' buses? The Merseytravel info page indicates the general geographical areas it's valid in, but as far as I can see doesn't say anything about which bus companies it applies to...

www.railforums.co.uk

Cross river night buses are a special case as there is no way to walk home at night without a 30 mile detour (assuming you fancy walking the Runcorn bridge at 3am in the morning!).

Somehow London seems to find the funding to do this?

It’s known locally as the Wirral Tax. Facilities in Wirral are stripped back so you have to go to Liverpool via bus/train/tunnel/ferry and pay over the odds every time if you want to do anything as inconvenient as have a meal out and see a film or have a choice of men’s shirts.

 

[Djgr]

That sounds a rather nice way to do a tourist-cruise. I wonder how many people doing the cruises know about that

Another nice transport round trip is ferry to Seacombe, bus or walk the promenade to New Brighton and then train back to Liverpool.

I particularly recommend the Egremont Ferry pub halfway along the prom with the classic view across to Liverpool.

It’s known locally as the Wirral Tax. Facilities in Wirral are stripped back so you have to go to Liverpool via bus/train/tunnel/ferry and pay over the odds every time if you want to do anything as inconvenient as have a meal out and see a film or have a choice of men’s shirts.

On the other hand I can be in the centre of Liverpool in 15 minutes, unlike real Scousers in Kirkby, Maghull, Skem etc.

During the day all is fine but it is really hard to get a taxi across the water late in the evening because of the demand from the relentless throng of Liverpool party animals.

 

[gray1404]

And I guess the cost of a bus into Liverpool from the Wirral and the cost of a Merseyrail Day Saver is the same as that from other parts of Merseyside.

 

[cool110]

And I guess the cost of a bus into Liverpool from the Wirral and the cost of a Merseyrail Day Saver is the same as that from other parts of Merseyside.

They're zonal so if you're in areas A (St Helens) or D (North Sefton) then it's the same as area B (Wirral), but if you're already in Area C it's cheaper.

 

[Blackpool boy]

Cross river night buses are a special case as there is no way to walk home at night without a 30 mile detour (assuming you fancy walking the Runcorn bridge at 3am in the morning!).

Somehow London seems to find the funding to do this?

Trying to compare apples and oranges is never really a good thing now is it?

 

[Djgr]

Trying to compare apples and oranges is never really a good thing now is it?

It's not if they were indeed completely different but both consist of major urban areas where there is demand for travel at night.

I'm assuming that London's night services are not self-financing but are provided with funding from somewhere?

They're zonal so if you're in areas A (St Helens) or D (North Sefton) then it's the same as area B (Wirral), but if you're already in Area C it's cheaper.

Wirral to Liverpool is always two zones even if you are only travelling the 2 minutes from Hamilton Square to James Street

 

[Blackpool boy]

It's not if they were indeed completely different but both consist of major urban areas where there is demand for travel at night.

I'm assuming that London's night services are not self-financing but are provided with funding from somewhere?

There's a vast difference between Merseyside's population of crica1.5 million people and that of greater london more than 9 times the population, along with london having far more services needed to be provided overnight, including the large office buildings all needing to be cleaned as well as their much larger night time economy.

And just looking at this data source shows that buses really do take a lot of money in the TFL scheme overall https://www.statista.com/statistics/411064/transport-london-fare-revenue-uk/

Im not saying that Merseyside shouldn't have night time buses but they would have to pay for it somehow out of their existing budget as theres no way a start up would pay for itself for a good few years until there was a big shift in nightlife and night work life in merseyside

 

[Bletchleyite]

Indeed, Merseytravel used to have a Wirral, Liverpool City Centre saveaway, but scrapped the ticket when they changed the zones in the early 00s, so only the all area saveaway is valid from Liverpool to Wirral & vice versa, even if it's going from like you say Hamilton Square to James Street.

That seems very unfair. Perhaps the zone layout should be revisited to bring Birkenhead into the same Area as Liverpool city centre, a bit more like London's zones.

 

[Haywain]

Wirral to Liverpool is always two zones even if you are only travelling the 2 minutes from Hamilton Square to James Street

If that is all you are doing you won’t buy a Saveaway, will you, whether it’s for one, two or more zones?

 

[Djgr]

That seems very unfair. Perhaps the zone layout should be revisited to bring Birkenhead into the same Area as Liverpool city centre, a bit more like London's zones.

It does come down to the unofficial "Wirral Tax" for crossing the river which is applicable for all types of transportation.

 

[Tetchytyke]

That seems very unfair. Perhaps the zone layout should be revisited to bring Birkenhead into the same Area as Liverpool city centre, a bit more like London's zones.

It'd end up being swings and roundabouts, the whole of the Wirral* is one zone. Even iff they made Birkenhead town centre and Liverpool City Centre one zone then most people would still need two zones anyway.

Thanks! That info is not obvious and must be confusing to a fair few people! Shame Merseytravel can't arrange that a bit better.

It's to persuade people to use the MetroCard.

And, in fairness, if you do get the MetroCard you can then also buy the Saveaway from PayPoint retailers rather than having to trek to a station.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

It does come down to the unofficial "Wirral Tax" for crossing the river which is applicable for all types of transportation.

Realistically, the river is a pretty huge physical barrier that requires very expensive infrastructure to provide transportation across it, so it's perhaps not unreasonable that people should have to pay something for doing so. (and for anyone interested in comparisons with the Thames, it's about 4x as wide as the Thames is in central London, so not very comparable).

It is perhaps a shame that there isn't a decent pedestrian/cycle crossing, but maybe not surprising considering how long a crossing would have to be.

 

[Birkonian]

As alluded to above, there is no pedestrian crossing from Liverpool to Birkenhead/Wallasey. Realistically, Wirralians have to take the last Merseyrail train home which in my case is 23:38. It is quite early to close tbe network in a major city. The last train from Chester to Liverpool through Wirral is worse - 23:00.

 

[Djgr]

As alluded to above, there is no pedestrian crossing from Liverpool to Birkenhead/Wallasey. Realistically, Wirralians have to take the last Merseyrail train home which in my case is 23:38. It is quite early to close tbe network in a major city. The last train from Chester to Liverpool through Wirral is worse - 23:00

...which comes back to the point about night buses, their funding and whether London's night buses are self-financing or not!

 

[Haywain]

...which comes back to the point about night buses, their funding and whether London's night buses are self-financing or not!

Under the London franchising model they are part of an overall package of services, aren’t they? Which means they don't have to be self financing.

 

[Djgr]

Under the London franchising model they are part of an overall package of services, aren’t they? Which means they don't have to be self financing.

OK so effectively funded through council tax charges (Londoners) and general taxation (everyone)?

 

[Haywain]

OK so effectively funded through council tax charges (Londoners) and general taxation (everyone)?

And cross-subsidised by profitable services.

 

[Blackpool boy]

...which comes back to the point about night buses, their funding and whether London's night buses are self-financing or not!

As I showed in my previous post - London buses take in over a billion pounds in revenue - im not sure if that covers the whole cost of them but again buses are a lifeline for night workers all over the city so their social value is worth a lot more compared to than just fancying a night out in Liverpool.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As I showed in my previous post - London buses take in over a billion pounds in revenue - im not sure if that covers the whole cost of them but again buses are a lifeline for night workers all over the city so their social value is worth a lot more compared to than just fancying a night out in Liverpool.

There are night workers in Liverpool too. Indeed in my experience Liverpool is far more of a 24 hour city than London is - the latter gets very quiet after the last trains out of the major termini have gone. At present these people just travel by car or taxi, but should they have to?

 

[Blackpool boy]

There are night workers in Liverpool too. Indeed in my experience Liverpool is far more of a 24 hour city than London is - the latter gets very quiet after the last trains out of the major termini have gone. At present these people just travel by car or taxi, but should they have to?

I never said there wasnt and if you scroll up further to my other reply it shows a bit more info and that i didnt doubt there should be some provision - if its paid for

However i highly doubt there are the same amount of people who wish to cross the Mersey of a night time is anywhere near the amount of people that have to use the buses in London.

 

[urbophile]

However i highly doubt there are the same amount of people who wish to cross the Mersey of a night time is anywhere near the amount of people that have to use the buses in London.

Of course not, but the proportion per head of population should be similar. Fewer buses needed therefore but some should exist.

 

[Djgr]

I have done a round trip on it on a Saveaway years ago and nobody cared. To be honest I don't think they do actually check, though I suppose there might be random alighting checks, you have to get a boarding card at the booking office to board so they can control numbers as is legally required for ships so they could in theory check those.

Yes. In theory, you have to show a Saveaway AND your boarding pass, which shows a one way journey.

Of course not, but the proportion per head of population should be similar. Fewer buses needed therefore but some should exist.

Exactly and particularly where there is no reasonably priced alternative

And cross-subsidised by profitable services.

Why do I have a sneaky suspicion that much of this is paid for via an indirect route by non Londoners?!

 

[Blackpool boy]

Of course not, but the proportion per head of population should be similar. Fewer buses needed therefore but some should exist.

And i have never said otherwise - the person i quote was quite clearly saying ' if london has it so should we' which ive agreed they should if they pay for it - as with most things.

Why do I have a sneaky suspicion that much of this is paid for via an indirect route by non Londoners?!

there's figures out there for you to find https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/p...24-shows-tfl-set-to-deliver-operating-surplus

around five million bus journeys made on weekdays

 

[Tetchytyke]

Why do I have a sneaky suspicion that much of this is paid for via an indirect route by non Londoners?!

Not really. Much of the night bus network in London is, in reality, just a 24-hour service of the day service. The contract for a route is a job lot including both the day service and the night service. So the cross-subsidy is within the route; the day passengers pay for the night passengers.

The last bus from Liverpool to Birkenhead is about 20 past midnight. You'd think a half-hourly bus all night would have enough custom to wash its face.

Realistically, Wirralians have to take the last Merseyrail train home which in my case is 23:38

Depends where you're going, the last bus through the tunnel is about 0020.

 

[Birkonian]

Not really. Much of the night bus network in London is, in reality, just a 24-hour service of the day service. The contract for a route is a job lot including both the day service and the night service. So the cross-subsidy is within the route; the day passengers pay for the night passengers.

The last bus from Liverpool to Birkenhead is about 20 past midnight. You'd think a half-hourly bus all night would have enough custom to wash its face.


Depends where you're going, the last bus through the tunnel is about 0020.

Doesn't go anywhere near where I live -Spital.

Council Tax payers throughout Merseyside pay a precept to Merseytravel. Wirral should better transport links to/from Liverpool later st night.

 

[Llandudno]

There is a night bus in Liverpool, the N1, operated by Stagecoach links Liverpool City Centre and Birkenhead every hour on Friday, Saturday and Sunday mornings

Should be 7 nights a week though…!

 

[Djgr]

There is a night bus in Liverpool, the N1, operated by Stagecoach links Liverpool City Centre and Birkenhead every hour on Friday, Saturday and Sunday mornings

Should be 7 nights a week though…!

...and also only on trial.

As said right at the start of the thread, perhaps forthcoming bus franchising will offer a degree of permanance and stability with wider considerations than simply the pockets of the bus company shareholders.

 

[Llandudno]

...and also only on trial.

As said right at the start of the thread, perhaps forthcoming bus franchising will offer a degree of permanance and stability with wider considerations than simply the pockets of the bus company shareholders.

Nothing stopping Merseytravel/Liverpool City Region putting a tender out for a 7 day a week night service between Liverpool and the Wirral..no need to wait for franchising.

 

[Bevan Price]

There is a night bus in Liverpool, the N1, operated by Stagecoach links Liverpool City Centre and Birkenhead every hour on Friday, Saturday and Sunday mornings

Should be 7 nights a week though…!

Night buses have been tried in the past on a few Liverpool area trunk routes (and cross river to Birkenhead), but failed to get enough passengers, and were eventually withdrawn. The massive tory cuts in central government funding for local authorities makes it unlikely that overnight buses will be reinstated in the near future; maybe the bus franchising system may bring changes.

 

[Statto]

Night buses have been tried in the past on a few Liverpool area trunk routes (and cross river to Birkenhead), but failed to get enough passengers, and were eventually withdrawn. The massive tory cuts in central government funding for local authorities makes it unlikely that overnight buses will be reinstated in the near future; maybe the bus franchising system may bring changes.

The weekend night buses then were commercially operated, i seem to remember it was cash fares only (£4 single i seem to remember), & passes weren't valid.

Although Merseytravel did have long standing tendered route, 150 Liverpool - Birkenhead, that operated Monday mornings to Friday mornings, unlike the weekend night routes, passes were valid on the 150, the 150 was withdrawn in 2014.

I do think their needs to be an all week Liverpool - Birkenhead bus service, last buses are 00.20, & first buses are from 06.20, & later on Sundays, but as mentioned you can't walk from Liverpool to Wirral, so you're stranded overnight if you miss the last bus service, & taxis are quite expensive.