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Is your Drivers' Company Council any good?

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Economist

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I'm aware that ASLEF seems to be able to brass neck it and get whatever they want at some TOCs, yet at others it seems that they can't achieve anything at all. Unfortunately, at my place in the south east, it would fall into the latter category and I'm looking to leave partially as a result of this.

Are you happy with the results your DCC has achieved in recent years? I'm not expecting people to name employers but it would be nice to build a picture of whether the imbalance between various DCCs is quite as big as it would appear.

Another thing that has come to mind is the unions trying to encourage "proactive recruitment of under-represented groups". I get the impression that it involves pressuring TOCs to recruit on demographics above ability and I'm concerned that it might disadvantage me as a candidate, are my concerns realistic?

Lastly, please don't name any individual DCC members, it'd most likely break forum rules.
 
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Efini92

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The company council at northern - an ash tray on a motorbike would be more useful.
Locally there’s some great reps but sadly they don’t get the support they need from the company council.
 

ComUtoR

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There is also the case of what is possible, and what isn't. There is a common believe that ASLEF are all powerful and can do whatever they want. However, this is not really the case. What they can do, and where they can really brass neck it, is stick to their terms and conditions. Some DCCs will go out their way to ensure their terms are religiously stuck to come hell or high water. Some DCCs will absoltutly stick to the issued guidance from ASLEF head office and others see it as nothing more than 'guidance' and should therefore be ignored.

What happens at my TOC a lot is that the terms and conditions do not allow for every circumstance so what has happened ov er the years is the company has taken those grey areas and created rules for themselves that really dont exist. My DCC do not push them on it and it leads to a lot of confusion in the grade and a lot of frustration. We have 'local agreements' that have neven been written down and 'gentlemans agreements' that the company ignore or follow as they wish.

I believe that the members are sold one thing but the reality is far from it. At my TOC this has led the members becoming very disolusioned and given the belief that ASLEF are their to facilitate management wishes rather than challenge anything.

Pretty much every single complaint about a diagram is met with the mantra 'well; its legal'
 

Bellbell

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Proactive recruitment of underrepresented groups is not the same as recruiting on demographics over ability. It is about taking steps to ensure that jobs are considered genuine possibilities by those groups and understanding what the previous barriers have been in their recruitment and seeking to address them.

The number of times I hear white straight male internals banging on about how they're being discriminated against is infuriating and pathetic, particularly as school after school of white, middle aged male trainee drivers appears over at the training centre.
 

godfreycomplex

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Proactive recruitment of underrepresented groups is not the same as recruiting on demographics over ability. It is about taking steps to ensure that jobs are considered genuine possibilities by those groups and understanding what the previous barriers have been in their recruitment and seeking to address them.

The number of times I hear white straight male internals banging on about how they're being discriminated against is infuriating and pathetic, particularly as school after school of white, middle aged male trainee drivers appears over at the training centre.

Agreed. It’s a cancer across certain parts of the industry.
 

Economist

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Proactive recruitment of underrepresented groups is not the same as recruiting on demographics over ability. It is about taking steps to ensure that jobs are considered genuine possibilities by those groups and understanding what the previous barriers have been in their recruitment and seeking to address them.

Why would any particular demographic group these days assume that they would be barred from entry into the driving grade or disadvantaged in some other way during the recruitment process? If people are put off from applying solely by assumptions which are proven false by some basic online research, they probably haven't got the determination to succeed through what is arguably a very intense training process.

I understand that in the past, the aptitude tests were more likely to fail candidates from certain demographic backgrounds and that these tests have been changed so that is no longer the case.

There are some companies openly backing quotas with the apparent blessing of ASLEF. The moment quotas emerge, ability takes second place.
 

StevieH

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Why would any particular demographic group these days assume that they would be barred from entry into the driving grade or disadvantaged in some other way during the recruitment process? If people are put off from applying solely by assumptions which are proven false by some basic online research, they probably haven't got the determination to succeed through what is arguably a very intense training process.

I understand that in the past, the aptitude tests were more likely to fail candidates from certain demographic backgrounds and that these tests have been changed so that is no longer the case.

There are some companies openly backing quotas with the apparent blessing of ASLEF. The moment quotas emerge, ability takes second place.
I agree with everything you have said there.
 

43066

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I'm aware that ASLEF seems to be able to brass neck it and get whatever they want at some TOCs, yet at others it seems that they can't achieve anything at all. Unfortunately, at my place in the south east, it would fall into the latter category and I'm looking to leave partially as a result of this.

Are you happy with the results your DCC has achieved in recent years? I'm not expecting people to name employers but it would be nice to build a picture of whether the imbalance between various DCCs is quite as big as it would appear.

Another thing that has come to mind is the unions trying to encourage "proactive recruitment of under-represented groups". I get the impression that it involves pressuring TOCs to recruit on demographics above ability and I'm concerned that it might disadvantage me as a candidate, are my concerns realistic?

Lastly, please don't name any individual DCC members, it'd most likely break forum rules.

My new one is a lot better than the one at my last place!

The problem with the last one was twofold: LDRs were doing the role for the wrong reasons (to get out of driving :rolleyes:) and the DCC seemed to be in bed with management, and willing to roll over and side with them over everything.

Add to that a cohort of drivers who complained constantly about their pay and Ts and Cs but had no interest in the union, unless they’d screwed up, and wanted advice and representation.

It wasn’t a pretty picture!

EDIT: to balance out the above rant, I should add what’s good about the new place ;).

DCC and TOC management seem to respect each other and work well together. There are inevitable disagreements, but compromises tend to be reached which satisfy both sides.

I can’t speak for other depots, but the LDR at my depot has been in the role for years, and puts his heart and soul it. Drivers tend to be invested in the union, because most tend to have moved across from elsewhere, and intend to remain long term.


Why would any particular demographic group these days assume that they would be barred from entry into the driving grade or disadvantaged in some other way during the recruitment process? If people are put off from applying solely by assumptions which are proven false by some basic online research, they probably haven't got the determination to succeed through what is arguably a very intense training process.

I understand that in the past, the aptitude tests were more likely to fail candidates from certain demographic backgrounds and that these tests have been changed so that is no longer the case.

There are some companies openly backing quotas with the apparent blessing of ASLEF. The moment quotas emerge, ability takes second place.

Excellent post.

There’s nothing wrong with “proactive recruitment”, but quotas are completely the wrong way to go.
 
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Bellbell

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Why would any particular demographic group these days assume that they would be barred from entry into the driving grade or disadvantaged in some other way during the recruitment process? If people are put off from applying solely by assumptions which are proven false by some basic online research, they probably haven't got the determination to succeed through what is arguably a very intense training process.

I understand that in the past, the aptitude tests were more likely to fail candidates from certain demographic backgrounds and that these tests have been changed so that is no longer the case.

There are some companies openly backing quotas with the apparent blessing of ASLEF. The moment quotas emerge, ability takes second place.

I don't think any group thinks they're barred. Can you not imagine why people who are not straight white men might take a look at the overwhelming number of straight white men in driving roles and have even a small doubt about whether they could or would want to get a job as a driver? Can you not imagine how the chat about how so-and-so was always going to get the job because they're [underrepresented group] feels to internal candidates in the messroom? I don't have demographics for applications but I'd feel confident, at my own TOC at least, in saying they don't reflect the wider community.

Beyond that, unconscious bias is a big problem when driver managers, who interview candidates, also tend to be straight white men. Similarity bias is going to cause an issue there.

I'm not aware of quotas at my TOC but if they exist they certainly haven't done anything to change the make up of the mess room.

You don't know me, so will have to take my word for this, but I love the messroom banter and wouldn't change most of it for the world. When people with whom I'm friends, or friendly with at least, endlessly take the mick out of me I see it as a good thing and I give it back. But I can still see, dislike and want to change some of the things that are said. If you were black and having your break in our messroom recently or standing outside on the platform listening in to drivers finding it hilarious to shout various offensive words used to refer to black people and moaning about 'well what are we allowed to call them these days' then I can well imagine why you might question whether the money is worth those kinds of attitudes.
 

Scottychoo

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ASLEF are rotten to the core, everyone in it for themselves. And whilst on the subject, front cover of their rag this month so utterly predictable with their support for the Marxist, Anti Capitalist, Anarchist, statue toppling BLM organisation. I'm sure they start the day on their knees in Head Office
 

Skoodle

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I think I'm quite lucky where I am. We have a good union representation and they have a good relationship with management. We know that LLC will always have our back and DFC are on the ball. My particular depot, we have an incredibly diverse mix of drivers. A lot of younger people are now joining, the stereotypical driver that people think of is probably nearly a minority here. We also have a large percentage of LGBTQ and female drivers, although we would like more females to see the train driving role as a prospective career. As we are a London metro depot, of course we're going to see that, I understand that demographics will be completely different when you move out further in the country.
 

StevieH

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ASLEF are rotten to the core, everyone in it for themselves. And whilst on the subject, front cover of their rag this month so utterly predictable with their support for the Marxist, Anti Capitalist, Anarchist, statue toppling BLM organisation. I'm sure they start the day on their knees in Head Office
Spot on they are sickening
 

Economist

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Some DCCs will go out their way to ensure their terms are religiously stuck to come hell or high water.

That's the way to go, it also creates a norm where the company don't expect anything therefore don't try it on.

Add to that a cohort of drivers who complained constantly about their pay and Ts and Cs but had no interest in the union, unless they’d screwed up, and wanted advice and representation.

Unfortunately, branch meetings at a lot of places aren't as well as attended as they should be, I always try and attend mine but it isn't as busy as I'd like it to be.

Beyond that, unconscious bias is a big problem when driver managers, who interview candidates, also tend to be straight white men. Similarity bias is going to cause an issue there.

Unfortunately, humans tend to respond more favourably to people who are similar to themselves, it's an evolutionary trait that's developed over millions of years. That said, personnel departments tend to be more diverse, so it might be better if TOCs had such a presence in all interviews/assessments.

You don't know me, so will have to take my word for this, but I love the messroom banter and wouldn't change most of it for the world.

Same here and I also agree that blatantly discriminatory behaviour has no place on the railway. That said I haven't seen much of it at my depot, possibly because it's in a large city. I can imagine that out in the sticks it tends to be more un-PC.

And whilst on the subject, front cover of their rag this month so utterly predictable with their support for the Marxist, Anti Capitalist, Anarchist, statue toppling BLM organisation.

Given how weak some of their DCCs actually are, it's fiddling whilst Rome burns. The Israel/Palestine mess is another favourite of theirs to wade in on. Quite frankly, they have no business getting involved in non-railway matters IMHO.
 

tiptoptaff

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Given how weak some of their DCCs actually are, it's fiddling whilst Rome burns. The Israel/Palestine mess is another favourite of theirs to wade in on. Quite frankly, they have no business getting involved in non-railway matters IMHO.
I agree. I would much rather them focus on what we pay them to do, which is represent us and protect our pay, conditions and negotiate on our behalf, than go off playing the hard-left mouthpiece. Which is a position that generally, most drivers don't agree with.
It wouldn't surprise me if the PR department was now run by Momentum, it's got that sort of flavour to it.

If they're going to comment on anything outside of the railway, perhaps they should be showing union solidarity with BA staff and Unite, rather than spouting anarchist propaganda
 

Scottychoo

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I agree. I would much rather them focus on what we pay them to do, which is represent us and protect our pay, conditions and negotiate on our behalf, than go off playing the hard-left mouthpiece. Which is a position that generally, most drivers don't agree with.
It wouldn't surprise me if the PR department was now run by Momentum, it's got that sort of flavour to it.

If they're going to comment on anything outside of the railway, perhaps they should be showing union solidarity with BA staff and Unite, rather than spouting anarchist propaganda
HIT.NAIL.HEAD
 

Seehof

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I agree about the Northern council. There were never any minutes or information about what was discussed. No input ever wanted from drivers. I think it was just a boys club for certain people who did not understand either the purpose or importance of the council.
 

StevieH

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I agree. I would much rather them focus on what we pay them to do, which is represent us and protect our pay, conditions and negotiate on our behalf, than go off playing the hard-left mouthpiece. Which is a position that generally, most drivers don't agree with.
It wouldn't surprise me if the PR department was now run by Momentum, it's got that sort of flavour to it.

If they're going to comment on anything outside of the railway, perhaps they should be showing union solidarity with BA staff and Unite, rather than spouting anarchist propaganda
The overwhelming majority would agree with you. It's just a pity as the overwhelming majority we can't change their tune especially when they are playing it on our dime.
 

tiptoptaff

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The overwhelming majority would agree with you. It's just a pity as the overwhelming majority we can't change their tune especially when they are playing it on our dime.
They're not interested in their members. They only want overtime banned because it means more drivers, which means more money for them
 

SlimJim1694

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If you were black and having your break in our messroom recently or standing outside on the platform listening in to drivers finding it hilarious to shout various offensive words used to refer to black people and moaning about 'well what are we allowed to call them these days' then I can well imagine why you might question whether the money is worth those kinds of attitudes.

That is absolutely disgusting and sickening.

ASLEF are rotten to the core, everyone in it for themselves. And whilst on the subject, front cover of their rag this month so utterly predictable with their support for the Marxist, Anti Capitalist, Anarchist, statue toppling BLM organisation. I'm sure they start the day on their knees in Head Office
Spot on they are sickening

Don't want to turn this into a BLM debate, but there is a massive problem with racism on the railway. I've sat in rooms with drivers doing the old glance around the room and then spouting racist crap while being blissfully unaware that my partner at the time and her kids were black. I later saw one of these dinosaurs when I was out with the family and he wasnt able to look me in the eye. I've also sat there while offensive homophobic comments have been made and there are gay drivers in the room having to listen to it.

Without going down the BLM debate or politics route, it's clear that there is a culture of some people who still think it is ok to be poisonous, intolerant, hateful a***holes. I applaud anything the union does to try to call out and shut down that kind of thing. I'd like to see the TOCs be more proactive in combatting it too. Its 2020 FFS!

Going back to the question of DCC, at a certain TOC serving Kent they are just being paid to go to the pub, ignore the members and do nothing while the company do what they like. You've only got to look at their bright red noses to see where they spend most of their full time release.
 

StevieH

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They're not interested in their members. They only want overtime banned because it means more drivers, which means more money for them
Well maybe it's time their members voted with their feet and wallets. Wishful thinking I know but they really should.
 

Tomnick

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Well maybe it's time their members voted with their feet and wallets. Wishful thinking I know but they really should.
They’d get a much better outcome if they didn’t vote with their feet (and wallets) but instead turned up to branch meetings and did their voting there! It’s obvious that there’s a pretty big divide between the membership and the higher levels of the union, but ultimately we’ll all be much worse off if we all leave and we end up with no union at all.
 

StevieH

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They’d get a much better outcome if they didn’t vote with their feet (and wallets) but instead turned up to branch meetings and did their voting there! It’s obvious that there’s a pretty big divide between the membership and the higher levels of the union, but ultimately we’ll all be much worse off if we all leave and we end up with no union at all.
Obviously in an ideal world this would be the case but we all know why people would be fearful to turn up at said meetings and voice displeasure with their extreme far left ideological social and cultural views. And high ups in the union would do their best to stamp out any local level dissent.
 

Timpg

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I must admit I’m very impressed with my depot and the council/ reps etc. I am new to the driving grade, switching from RMT to aslef. But the council at my depot are fair, well respected, and will help colleagues in any which way they can. They also have have a good relationship with management, and in turn management are also very approachable and well respected also.
 

irish_rail

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Why would any particular demographic group these days assume that they would be barred from entry into the driving grade or disadvantaged in some other way during the recruitment process? If people are put off from applying solely by assumptions which are proven false by some basic online research, they probably haven't got the determination to succeed through what is arguably a very intense training process.

I understand that in the past, the aptitude tests were more likely to fail candidates from certain demographic backgrounds and that these tests have been changed so that is no longer the case.

There are some companies openly backing quotas with the apparent blessing of ASLEF. The moment quotas emerge, ability takes second place.
Agree 100 percent
 

43066

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Obviously in an ideal world this would be the case but we all know why people would be fearful to turn up at said meetings and voice displeasure with their extreme far left ideological social and cultural views. And high ups in the union would do their best to stamp out any local level dissent.

100% correct.

The gulf between the concerns of the members and the priorities of the union never ceases to amaze me. The hardcore idealogues at the top clearly view the union as a political pressure group for their own world view - and seemingly have no interest in consulting members about what they want *their* union to stand for.

That said I agree with @Tomnick - better to remain within it and try to change it from within. I’m also extremely happy with the work my branch does at a local level, so that makes the subs worth it.
 

Tomnick

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Obviously in an ideal world this would be the case but we all know why people would be fearful to turn up at said meetings and voice displeasure with their extreme far left ideological social and cultural views. And high ups in the union would do their best to stamp out any local level dissent.
If things are so bad that members feel scared to go to meetings and that even the local level reps aren’t effectively representing them (and I don’t doubt that there are branches like that!), then the obvious (and probably only) answer is to find someone prepared to stand against them when their terms are up. It’s still not without its potential drama, but with more engagement and support from the branch as a whole, it’d be a positive step.
 

Scottychoo

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The problem is there is no alternative to the dinosaur that is ASLEF. We are no longer in the steam age, a modern alternative for a modern world is needed. Big changes for the railways after Covid, they are remaining in Govt hands which should please ASLEF as we all know they hate the privatised corporate world.
A refresh and resurgence of the ATCU is badly needed.
 
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