Islamic Extremists vow to march through Wootton Bassett

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by TrainBrain185, 2 Jan 2010.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Old Timer

    Old Timer Established Member

    Messages:
    3,704
    Joined:
    24 Aug 2009
    Location:
    On a plane somewhere at 35,000
    Happy enough to live off our social security system though whilst you work to provide for it, I'll bet :roll:
     
  2. Snapper

    Snapper Established Member

    Messages:
    2,173
    Joined:
    28 May 2006
    Location:
    All over the place
    It doesn't take long before the latent prejudice comes through....

    It always amuses me how the democratic right to protest only applies to 'your' side.

    If people are so bothered by the march. Turn up and all line the road - but turn your backs and face away from it. It would be both a dignified and eloquent protest.

    Although TBH, this looks like a publicity stunt that the gullible have fallen for as no march has been applied for or been given permission.

    Not that a mere detail like that will stop the 'the lovers of democracy' coming out with pathetic remarks like 'shoot the bastards' (for what, exactly?)
     
    Last edited: 8 Jan 2010
  3. Bill EWS

    Bill EWS Member

    Messages:
    621
    Joined:
    10 Feb 2006
    Location:
    Didcot
    Careful Snapper, they are just as likley to turn nasty on you for daring to question their political leaning. You are just supposed to nod in agreement!
     
  4. matt

    matt Forum Staff Staff Member Global Moderator

    Messages:
    6,610
    Joined:
    30 Jun 2005
    Location:
    Rugby
    I don't think there is any need for generalisations like that
     
  5. thefab444

    thefab444 Established Member

    Messages:
    3,692
    Joined:
    27 Oct 2006
    Location:
    The New Forest
    Totally agree with above post by Snapper.
     
  6. Tom B

    Tom B Established Member

    Messages:
    4,468
    Joined:
    27 Jul 2005
    Quite. I particularly like it when the Daily Mail brigade come out with the "if you don't like the way we do things in this country, go home!" line - failing to remember that the right to freedom of speech is part of the way we do things in this country...
     
  7. TrainBrain185

    TrainBrain185 Member

    Messages:
    310
    Joined:
    2 Jun 2009
    Location:
    County Durham
    Why???????
     
  8. matt

    matt Forum Staff Staff Member Global Moderator

    Messages:
    6,610
    Joined:
    30 Jun 2005
    Location:
    Rugby
    To say that all Muslims are living on benefits simply isn't true
     
  9. TrainBrain185

    TrainBrain185 Member

    Messages:
    310
    Joined:
    2 Jun 2009
    Location:
    County Durham
    No! they should not be allowed. Why choose Wootton Basset other than and make a mockery of our fallen Army lads? The whole thing sickens me to the pits of my stomach........
     
  10. Old Timer

    Old Timer Established Member

    Messages:
    3,704
    Joined:
    24 Aug 2009
    Location:
    On a plane somewhere at 35,000
    I never said that all of them were living on benefits. YOU made that assumption, and actually I object to that. The comment relates to the points made in the post to which it answered.

    In any case, any time you want I can take you to whole areas where there are Muslims living on benefits and make no bones about hating the UK and its people. Pretty much all of these people have come here as economic migrants.

    And by the way I work with Muslims who hold precisely the same views I do, in fact their own views are harsher and would no doubt find them banned from here.
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    The thing is that they dont represent ALL Muslims but they do represent a fair chunk.

    Ignoring them and starving them of the response they so desperately want is what is needed.

    The various Government Departments should then make enquiries to establish their continued rights to the various benefits as if they are marching and involved in such things they cannot be actively seeking work.

    Their action is intended simply to cause friction between the two populations and so far the UK has been totally incapable of taking this small but vocal group in hand, mostly I imagine because of the Leftist fixation with racist accusations whenever such matters are raised.
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    So we should just ignore these things and allow those who seek to change our way of living by intimidation and terrorism free reign ?

    Your comment is adolescent at best.

    After 9/11 and 7/7 there were celebrations. Did you find this acceptable ?

    The freedoms that these people abuse are not freedoms that are available under the system they are trying to impose upon us. I have travelled and worked in Muslim Countries, and I can tell you that there is little if any freedom of speech. Iran being a very good example.
     
  11. O L Leigh

    O L Leigh Established Member

    Messages:
    4,176
    Joined:
    20 Jan 2006
    I've spent a lot of time thinking about this (and ignoring all preceding posts while doing so) and have come to the conclusion that this group has already achieved it's aim even without coming within 100 miles of Wootton Bassett.

    As I see it, all they want to achieve is some sort of proof that this is a war against Islam and the the UK is an anti-Islamic state. They didn't actually need to carry out the march in order to whip up a huge furore in the media and in general public opinion in order to demonstrate that, in their minds, there is a double-standard that puts Muslims and Islam at the bottom of the pile. It was just a deliberately provocative move designed to throw a spotlight onto the British public sentiment. I mean, the fact that we're discussing it on a railway forum shows just how deeply public opinion is running and how successfully they have achieved their aims.

    I think this proposed march should have been ignored. No statements of condemnation should have been issued and no barriers put in the way of the organisers, just a total blanking of the proposal. Let them apply for permission to demonstrate and, as others have said, allow them to march and see what support they get. It really is the best way of undermining their aims. All this other discussion touching on who is permitted to enter the UK, deportation of undesirables and the status of certain individuals is just so much fluff.

    I honestly don't believe that many people could fail to admit that innocent non-combatants have been killed in the course of the actions in Afghanistan and Iraq or recognise that there are Muslim soldiers on active service in our military. I don't see any harm in a ceremony honouring and remembering these people. However, this proposed march is not it.

    O L Leigh
     
  12. thefab444

    thefab444 Established Member

    Messages:
    3,692
    Joined:
    27 Oct 2006
    Location:
    The New Forest
    Ah, but judging by some of the responses in this thread, the Daily Mail brigade believe free speech should only apply to non-immigrants, in the same way they always seem to believe foreign law shouldn't apply to UK residents when in foreign countries. :roll:
     
  13. ralphchadkirk

    ralphchadkirk Established Member

    Messages:
    5,764
    Joined:
    20 Oct 2008
    Location:
    Essex
    But UK law should apply to immigrants.


    Double standards?
     
  14. Oswyntail

    Oswyntail Established Member

    Messages:
    4,183
    Joined:
    23 May 2009
    Location:
    Yorkshire
    Yes. If we do not, then we have to allow someone, somewhere to determine what should be allowed to be spoken and what should not. That is called censorship. I would rather trust in the ability of my fellow citizens to work out what is right and what is wrong.

    Pot? Kettle? (See, I can do it too :))

    No, not in the sentiments expressed, but yes in that it was allowed to happen.

    That is completely and utterly irrelevant. They are freedoms found here, and that is why, IMHO, I prefer to live here. If we deny those freedoms to those who seek to deny us those freedoms then we are reducing ourselves and our country.
     
  15. Ben

    Ben Member

    Messages:
    1,000
    Joined:
    8 Jun 2005
    Wootton bassett - 7 roads into the village, a tank on each road manned the colleagues of the fallen...?
     
  16. Old Timer

    Old Timer Established Member

    Messages:
    3,704
    Joined:
    24 Aug 2009
    Location:
    On a plane somewhere at 35,000
    So on that basis, as per my original words you feel it is quite OK for individuals and groups to openly call for peapople to be killled, and for them to be allowed free reign to bomb, and maim both their own (Muslim soldiers for example) and the ordinary UK citizens whatever there personal beliefs are, simply because they do not wish to live under a medieval belief system.

    I rather think you tread a solitary and very lonely road in that case.

    So it is quite OK for them to celebrate the deaths of many, many people, yet I am criticised when I point these things out?

    Yeah, right. An interesting approach, but not one universally shared I suspect.

    And what of those who are striving to remove those freedoms from US. Presumably the rest of the population including Muslims who do not wish to live under a rigid system that denies freedom of speech, equal rights to women, no rights to believe in other faith systems have no freedom to enjoy this right ?

    My comment about Islamic Countries is far from irrelevant. They are examples of the type of regime that the militants wish to impose here. Sharia Law being a priority, even amongst a number of so called "moderates".

    Been to any good stonings recently ? Or maybe a public beheading ? How about watching people being hanged through being attached to a road crane and elevated into the sky above a jeering crowd.

    These things are happening weekly in Countries you would call "civilised". Saudi, and Iran being good examples, however a little Googling will bring more up..
     
  17. ralphchadkirk

    ralphchadkirk Established Member

    Messages:
    5,764
    Joined:
    20 Oct 2008
    Location:
    Essex
    But, unless I am missing something - he said what they were celebrating was not OK, yet the fact they were allowed to was. So, he is agreeing with you?
     
  18. thefab444

    thefab444 Established Member

    Messages:
    3,692
    Joined:
    27 Oct 2006
    Location:
    The New Forest
    Tony Blair and George Bush seem to fit the bill quite nicely here.

    Don't be so sure, your opinions aren't exactly widely appreciated either. :p
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    Nah, OT believes that only approved celebrations/demonstrations should be allowed, and people celebrating/demonstrating at unapproved events (approved events being only patriotic right-wing nonsense) are liable to have their benefits removed.
     
    Last edited: 9 Jan 2010
  19. Snapper

    Snapper Established Member

    Messages:
    2,173
    Joined:
    28 May 2006
    Location:
    All over the place
    They have happened, and they do happen. But they don't happen anywhere near as often as you like to make out. The crane example happened in Afghanistan under the Taliban. So, it hasn't happened for years. Many countries (including democracies) have capital punishment - the US being a prime example (52 executions in 2009). Beheading is no more barbaric than the electric chair.

    As for stonings - pray tell where this last happened where it was state sanctioned?

    To say that these things are happening 'weekly' is a complete lie.
     
    Last edited: 9 Jan 2010
  20. Wyvern

    Wyvern Established Member

    Messages:
    1,573
    Joined:
    27 Oct 2009
    To be pedantic nothing is "state sanctioned" under Shariah law. There is no state nor written statute. Everything is decided by the religious brethren.

    Another point if someone has committed a crime against you, you carry out the punishment and, while the punishment is decreed by the judgment, you have the right to carry it out in any way you please. Hence pressure may be put on you not to hang someone with a crane, but no one can prevent you.
     
  21. Snapper

    Snapper Established Member

    Messages:
    2,173
    Joined:
    28 May 2006
    Location:
    All over the place
    It's not pedantic. It's plain wrong - and shows no understanding of what Sharia law actually is. Or how the legal system works in an Islamic country.

    Islamic states (including Saudi Arabia) don't operate the way you claim. Sharia law may prove to be the basis for wider law, but it doesn't mean that the ludicrous example you gave (of hanging by crane) could happen. In functioning states there is still the rule of law and a legal system - not just 'religious bretheren'
     
    Last edited: 9 Jan 2010
  22. yorkie

    yorkie Forum Staff Staff Member Administrator

    Messages:
    46,572
    Joined:
    6 Jun 2005
    Location:
    Yorkshire
    Interestingly, the Christians did exactly that to native Pagans (or people suspected of being Pagans) when they invaded our country. Fortunately these practices are no longer accepted, however many other beliefs have become accepted, such as our celebration of Yule being re-branded Christmas and re-dated. I don't agree with cultures going in and conquering another land and forcing people to adhere to their beliefs and mistreating the natives, but sadly that's exactly what happened here in the past, and people from here did the same in America and Australia, and other places.

    One claim I find very insulting is when people claim we "should" be a Christian country, this is not uncommon for some people to use this argument but fortunately I've not seen it used on this forum yet. Why should we? Why is it acceptable for us to be conquered by certain groups of people but not others? Religion should be separate from the state and we should in no way be a country of any specific religion.

    I find that the people who claim immigration is wrong do not seem to believe that immigration from Europe to the USA / Australia was or is wrong. Hmm.

    If some people believe all immigration is totally wrong, then I trust they are 100% ancient Briton and do not believe in any imported beliefs such as those imposed on us by Christianity, and they do not have any blood from Vikings, Normans, Romans, etc, and I trust they also are totally against the mistreatment of natives in places like America and Australia? ;)

    I don't think this march should go ahead, but I very much doubt it would anyway. Like O L Leigh and various others, I think it should have been ignored. No request has even been made, and people are getting into a frenzy about something very hypothetical and some people are displaying some views that are very hypocritical given that we are a nation of immigrants and we value free speech. That does not mean that the march should be allowed to go ahead, as it can (and should) be denied on public safety grounds, IF it is applied for, which so far it has not!
     
  23. royaloak

    royaloak Established Member

    Messages:
    1,389
    Joined:
    11 Oct 2009
    Location:
    today I will mostly be at home decorating
    So why were ALL st Georges day celebrations cancelled on racism grounds but st Patricks day, st Davids day and st Andrews day are all fine?
     
  24. Oswyntail

    Oswyntail Established Member

    Messages:
    4,183
    Joined:
    23 May 2009
    Location:
    Yorkshire
    Another urban myth. At least one went ahead - in Morley, not exactly far removed from several ethnic communities - and was featured on national news. I did not hear of any actually being cancelled. Facts?
     
  25. royaloak

    royaloak Established Member

    Messages:
    1,389
    Joined:
    11 Oct 2009
    Location:
    today I will mostly be at home decorating
    Well they were all cancelled (or not organised) in Plymouth.
     
  26. Old Timer

    Old Timer Established Member

    Messages:
    3,704
    Joined:
    24 Aug 2009
    Location:
    On a plane somewhere at 35,000
    Snapper

    Some current examples of Sharia Law, and Islamic-style justice.

    Persecution of political opponents
    http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2010/01/09/iran-end-persecution-peaceful-activists

    Executed for having been Raped
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gytDdO471yA

    Genocide
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/3918765.stm



    Saudi Arabia is one of a number of countries where courts continue to impose corporal punishment, including amputations of hands and feet for robbery, and flogging for lesser crimes such as "sexual deviance" and drunkenness. The number of lashes is not clearly prescribed by law and is varied according to the discretion of judges, and ranges from dozens of lashes to several hundreds, usually applied over a period of weeks or months.

    In 2004, the United Nations Committee against Torture criticized Saudi Arabia over the amputations and floggings it carries out under Sharia. The Saudi delegation responded defending "legal traditions" held since the inception of Islam 1,400 years ago and rejected interference in its legal system.

    Saudi Arabia also engages in capital punishment, including public executions by beheading. Beheading is the punishment for murderers, rapists, drug traffickers and armed robbers, according to strict interpretation of Islamic law. In 2005 there were 191 executions, in 2006 there were 38, in 2007 there were 153, and in 2008 there were 102

    A spokesman for Saudi Arabia's National Society for Human Rights has said that numbers of executions are rising because crime rates are rising, that prisoners are treated humanely, and that the beheadings deter crime, saying, ""Allah, our creator, knows best what's good for his people...Should we just think of and preserve the rights of the murderer and not think of the rights of others


    In 2003, a court in Pakistan sentenced a man to be blinded by acid after he carried out a similar attack on his fiancee.


    In 2005, an Iranian court ordered a man's eye to be removed for throwing acid on another man and blinding him in both eyes.


    The Yemen Government practice torture, inhumane treatment and extrajudicial executions. There are also arbitrary arrests, searches of homes, prolonged pre-trial detention,judicial corruption, inefficiency, and executive interference undermine due process. Freedom of speech, the press and religion are all restricted


    Amputation in Somalia
    Here is an extract from the BBC website concerning an amputation punishment in May 2009
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/8057179.stm
     
  27. ralphchadkirk

    ralphchadkirk Established Member

    Messages:
    5,764
    Joined:
    20 Oct 2008
    Location:
    Essex
    Old Timer - I agree with you partly, I think Sharia law is certianly not cricket, but I disagree with you by saying I think the march should be allowed, under our free speech laws, but just not to give them any media attention.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: 9 Jan 2010
  28. Oswyntail

    Oswyntail Established Member

    Messages:
    4,183
    Joined:
    23 May 2009
    Location:
    Yorkshire
    Yes, no one denies that some aspects of Islamic states are abhorrent. But we are different. We do not have capital or corporal punishment (though some western states do); we believe in "justice" being served through prison sentences rather than through "eye for an eye" revenge. And we believe that freedom of speech and action within the law is actually a better defence against such threats as terrorism and tyranny than the imposition of a police state. It does, however, rely on each individual citizen being able to see through spurious arguments, to be willing to be law-abiding, in short taking responsibility for their own part of the nation. We have to be on our guard against many groups: those who try to subvert our national methods of justice; those who think that such subversives deserve all they get and are outside the protection of the law; and, most dangerously, those who maintain that just a little reduction in those basic freedoms for certain well-defined groups or activities is necessary for the protection of everyone.
     
  29. Old Timer

    Old Timer Established Member

    Messages:
    3,704
    Joined:
    24 Aug 2009
    Location:
    On a plane somewhere at 35,000
    I have never suggested it be banned.

    I have suggested they should be ignored.
     
  30. Wyvern

    Wyvern Established Member

    Messages:
    1,573
    Joined:
    27 Oct 2009
    I just don't want justice dispensed by a bunch of clerics.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page