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Island Line Railway - current state and the future

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yorksrob

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How far back do you want to go in terms of apportioning blame? Some of those bodies are no longer in existence.

Given an investment cycle for railway infrastructure lasts forty - fifty years, and taking the last major investment as being electrification in '68, I would collar any organisation that has been "looking after" the railway from around 2008 onwards.
 
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Xenophon PCDGS

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Given an investment cycle for railway infrastructure lasts forty - fifty years, and taking the last major investment as being electrification in '68, I would collar any organisation that has been "looking after" the railway from around 2008 onwards.

Under what powers would your stated financial stricture so apply and would you expect the incumbent organisation to strenuously defend itself against the charges levied against it?
 

yorksrob

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Under what powers would your stated financial stricture so apply and would you expect the incumbent organisation to strenuously defend itself against the charges levied against it?

I would be surprised if, within whatever legal documentation allocated the responsibility for the upkeep of the line to that organisation, there wasn't some clause along the lines of "thou shalt hand back the line in the equivalent condition to that in which it was handed over".
 

Chris125

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Been mentioned several times, and the answer is no - the cars are too long, possibly too high and the floor is a different height to the current stock.

I've yet to see a definitive answe, but I believe Adrian Shooter has said he thinks they'd fit and of all the available rolling stock they'd seem likely to require the fewest changes to the infrastructure.

They only have 3 (possibly 2 after one tried to bbq itself) working units. The 3rd rail has holes in it, the island can’t support the electricity needed to run 2x4 car (even if there was enough units).

Should still be three units, seems 006's overhaul had been completed and was ready to replace 004 the next day.

Where are these conductor rails with holes in? I've never seen this mentioned as an issue before, those up the pier may have suffered but should surely be fine.
 

Chris125

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On any other route, such issues would have been alleviated by routine maintenance and track renewals, so perhaps we should be asking why the route was allowed to get into this state, and who is culpable.

When you look at the investment under NSE, privatisation has to take much of the blame - splitting responsibility for the infrastructure and awarding a series of relatively short franchises gave no incentive for longer term investment in the infrastructure, with the age of the rolling stock a useful excuse despite it still operating the service as reliably as ever 20 years on.

Ride quality has been an obvious casualty; to quote Mark Brinton:

"What has happened since privatisation is that the experienced track engineers have retired or left the industry and most of the original documentation, reports, studies etc. lost. So with the advent of contractor style maintenance there is no knowledge or experience in local issues and their significance. This has allowed the track’s line and level to deteriorate due to there being a lack in investment in the necessary enhanced maintenance required"​
 
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yorksrob

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When you look at the investment under NSE, privatisation has to take much of the blame - splitting responsibility for the infrastructure and awarding a series of relatively short franchises gave no incentive for longer term investment in the infrastructure, with the age of the rolling stock a useful excuse despite it still operating the service as reliably as ever 20 years on.

Ride quality has been an obvious casualty; to quote Mark Brinton:

"What has happened since privatisation is that the experienced track engineers have retired or left the industry and most of the original documentation, reports, studies etc. lost. So with the advent of contractor style maintenance there is no knowledge or experience in local issues and their significance. This has allowed the track’s line and level to deteriorate due to there being a lack in investment in the necessary enhanced maintenance required"​

Indeed. The more I see of this experiment, the more I feel the route needs to be re-integrated back into NR and updated as an extra portion of the Portsmouth main line.
 

Dougal2345

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[...]the island can’t support the electricity needed to run 2x4 car (even if there was enough units).[...]
When the consultation document rather vaguely says things like 'No third rail infrastructure required; reduce the load on Isle of Wight power supply' it does rather make it sound as though the Island as a whole is short of power, and lights in the shops and houses of Ryde flicker and dim whenever a train accelerates :)

Just to clarify, the Garnett report [from which the consultation document cribs this] says

5.10 It is reported that there is not enough power to let Island Line run 2, four car sets at the same time. The line operates with one four car set and 1 two car set when extra capacity is required. There are three substations on Island Line but it has been reported that there is a serious voltage drop on the line. It is thought that at Shanklin the voltage drops to around 350v. The condition of the substations that provide the DC supply gives cause for concern. The HV supply to the substations is thought to be satisfactory. The actual condition of the DC supply needs to be ascertained as there was a recent failure of the total system with service not starting till about 1430.

So I read that as being purely a problem with the railway's substations.
 

Bletchleyite

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They used to run longer trains all the time, and three of them at once, didn't they?

I doubt the Island's power supply itself has deteriorated to that extent. I would agree it's probably the railway's power supply (i.e. substations, rectifiers etc) that are knackered.

That says to me that any replacement will either be DMU or a completely new power system i.e. tramway DC overhead. (The latter unlikely, I'd bet on DMU).
 

Chris125

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They used to run longer trains all the time, and three of them at once, didn't they?

In the early years they'd run up to 6 7-car sets on Summer Saturdays using the second platform at Shanklin - otherwise a half hourly summer service (reduced to hourly in winter) sufficed.

That says to me that any replacement will either be DMU or a completely new power system i.e. tramway DC overhead. (The latter unlikely, I'd bet on DMU).

The easiest, least controversial solution generally wins out in the end.
 

pompeyfan

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Unrelated but I have vague memories of seeing trains use the other platforms at Ryde Esplanade and Pier Head. From what I can see there is no points to cross over to the now decommissioned platforms. Did these trains only run as shuttles or did they perform some sort of unusual shunt move?
 

mind the gap

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I doubt the Island's power supply itself has deteriorated to that extent. I would agree it's probably the railway's power supply (i.e. substations, rectifiers etc) that are knackered.

Or perhaps the islands power demands, excluding the railway, have increased, which prevents the line running away "full power".?

How was/is the line's infrastructure supported? Is this by an island based team/s or supported by personnel from the mainland?
 

Chris125

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Unrelated but I have vague memories of seeing trains use the other platforms at Ryde Esplanade and Pier Head. From what I can see there is no points to cross over to the now decommissioned platforms. Did these trains only run as shuttles or did they perform some sort of unusual shunt move?

Pier Head-Esplanade shuttle only, since they removed the scissors crossover in the early 70s - apparently they did try running it after privatisation but only when spare crews were available, so didn't last long.

Or perhaps the islands power demands, excluding the railway, have increased, which prevents the line running away "full power".

I've never seen that suggested before despite many articles and reports published over the years - the consultation does appear to acknowledge a lack of first hand info about the infrastructure, saying there is "significant debate" about it's condition, quoting the Garnett report and reporting that 'due diligence' is still underway.
 

Hadders

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Sometimes you just have to spend the money and the IoW is potentially an example of this.

Here's my idea for a crayonista design, acquire some brand new prototype Underground stock and set it up for driverless trains. Use the island as a testing bed before rolling out in London..... ;) :lol:
 

hooverboy

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Or perhaps the islands power demands, excluding the railway, have increased, which prevents the line running away "full power".?

How was/is the line's infrastructure supported? Is this by an island based team/s or supported by personnel from the mainland?

does seem to suggest that it's the old 630v switchgear that is getting to the end of it's operational life.
replacing with refurbed 750v capable from the rest of southern network is probably sufficient as a low cost alternative.I would still look at maybe a hybrid/battery solution though for the vehicles,with a recharge/pickup point at each terminal...would seem like a sensible idea.
 

hooverboy

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Sometimes you just have to spend the money and the IoW is potentially an example of this.

Here's my idea for a crayonista design, acquire some brand new prototype Underground stock and set it up for driverless trains. Use the island as a testing bed before rolling out in London..... ;) :lol:

i think potentially a multi-use VLR concept would work better,but the TOC's need to talk to each other.there are lots of other branch lines in the uk that maybe only cover 20-30 miles that have a low payload,so need to keep operating costs right down.
there is probably a case for DOO(pay on entry like a bus at one entry point or altogether contactless), low height 15-18m car length,2 car artic, with good acceleration and top speed 60mph or so.

the class 230 would seem like a good starting point,but joe public expects better than 50 year old hand me downs,they might be ok with a cut "n "shut DLR type thing.
if enough TOC's can see merit in running a vehicle better than a 153/pacer for the same cost,the economies of scale would come.it's cheaper to order 200 of them than 10 sets of bespoke units.

the pacer itself was to give it credit a very low cost but effective solution to a real problem we had in the 80's, it was really just a bit under-designed...a little too rough and ready where an extra year under development would have probably ironed out a lot of the wrinkles they get slated for.

as I see it there is still very much a need for a super low cost,easy to maintain,reliable,efficient and versatile/low RA unit that will just do the job,no more....no need for on board USB/WIFI etc just get from A to B comfortably and on time all the time.

new TOC orders seem to be concentrating on all the bells and whistles,but for a branch line with 10 people per train this does not make sense.
what does a branch line train really need?....just a toilet and a cycle bay for the most part.
 

hooverboy

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Does a journey time under 30 minutes even need a bog? It doesn't have one now.

It needs seats, a wheelchair bay and a cycle bay.

island line is only about 20 minutes end to end,but for a TOC you need to think worst case scenario.
line is 60 miles long,with average line speed of 30mph, 1 train an hour and a passenger with the squits:D(would be a fairly typical lincolnshire/east anglia rural line)

wheelchair bay and cycle bay are interchangeable.just use the longditudinal flip-up seats,positioned near the toilet.

IMHO the perfect solution to these would be a 2 car version of munich s-bahn trains, but with a loo included and the cycle bay next to it.I've been on these a few times and their acceleration/braking into stations is fantastic.on a country line that is where you will make up the time
https://s14-eu5.ixquick.com/cgi-bin...sbahn.jpg&sp=fc7a87378a8dc24bf6e9255006680602
 
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SpacePhoenix

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island line is only about 20 minutes end to end,but for a TOC you need to think worst case scenario.
line is 60 miles long,with average line speed of 30mph, 1 train an hour and a passenger with the squits:D(would be a fairly typical lincolnshire/east anglia rural line)

wheelchair bay and cycle bay are interchangeable.just use the longditudinal flip-up seats,positioned near the toilet.

IMHO the perfect solution to these would be a 2 car version of munich s-bahn trains, but with a loo included and the cycle bay next to it.I've been on these a few times and their acceleration/braking into stations is fantastic.on a country line that is where you will make up the time
https://s14-eu5.ixquick.com/cgi-bin/serveimage?url=http://www.srm-basics.com/images/sbahn.jpg&sp=fc7a87378a8dc24bf6e9255006680602

Can't see that being viable with the available height in the Ryde tunnel (Esplanade-St Johns)
 

Chris125

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Which is the big problem. Were it not for this, there would be all sorts of options. Even Pacers.

I doubt it would make much difference tbh - there'd still be a tightly curved platform at Esplanade, a number of overbridges with limited headroom/clearances, a small cramped depot, low platforms, poor quality track and in all likelihood a severe weight limit.
 

Dougal2345

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... the consultation does appear to acknowledge a lack of first hand info about the infrastructure, saying there is "significant debate" about it's condition, quoting the Garnett report and reporting that 'due diligence' is still underway.

Given that, it's rather odd that SWR have already favoured the "self-powered train" route. It's almost as though they want to be rid of the third rail, whatever condition it might be in...

Also worrying that both battery and PPM would be 'experimental' for this route... so what are the options if the experiment fails...? The third rail will presumably be long gone by then...

So, to indulge in a little conspiracy theory, here's what might happen when SWR get the go-ahead for the battery/PPM option:

(i) They place an order for a minimal number of very small new or "re-engineeered" [sic] trains - probably single units.
(ii) They close the line asap (bustitution) in order to rip out the third rail. The longer this lasts the better, as passengers drift away.
(iii) Their new trains are ineffective, unreliable, overcrowded and widely disliked.
(iv) They can't re-instate the third rail for 'Safety reasons'.
(v) Might as well close it then...
 
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jon0844

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(the cars are too long, too heigh, too square, the floor is too high, and the power collection is currently physically incompatible. Driving cabs would also need to be added.)

You're so picky!
 

swt_passenger

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(ii) They close the line asap (bustitution) in order to rip out the third rail. The longer this lasts the better, as passengers drift away.
Completely unnecessary to close and bustitute any line to 'rip out' the third rail. It would just get switched off and all cabling disconnected. Removal of the physical rail could be done over a relatively long period during normal possession time.
 

Bletchleyite

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Completely unnecessary to close and bustitute any line to 'rip out' the third rail. It would just get switched off and all cabling disconnected. Removal of the physical rail could be done over a relatively long period during normal possession time.

If it was known to be switched off I'd imagine it and the cables will be removed on the railway's behalf soon enough... :D
 

JohnRegular

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Perhaps we can commission Elon Musk and Tesla to develop a battery/hydrogen locomotive suitable for use on the island line?
A pipe dream, but the existing tube stock could be kept going much longer if dragged so the traction equipment was no longer needed. And future tube stock more easily converted for island use.
Are the platforms on the island long enough for a 2+4 battery loco hauled tube train? :lol:
 

MarkyT

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Perhaps we can commission Elon Musk and Tesla to develop a battery/hydrogen locomotive suitable for use on the island line?
A pipe dream, but the existing tube stock could be kept going much longer if dragged so the traction equipment was no longer needed. And future tube stock more easily converted for island use.
Are the platforms on the island long enough for a 2+4 battery loco hauled tube train? :lol:

Alternatively, a single new small power car with a through gangway, sandwiched between two refurbed two-car units, with all existing traction equipment removed but each retaining a driving cab at the outer extremity. Quite 'Flirty' really!
 

Bletchleyite

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Alternatively, a single new small power car with a through gangway, sandwiched between two refurbed two-car units, with all existing traction equipment removed but each retaining a driving cab at the outer extremity. Quite 'Flirty' really!

Vertically squashed battery 73? A bit like the Merseyrail Sandite unit once was, being formed of two Class 501 trailers with a 73 in the middle? :)
 

Why

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Have been on the Isle of Wight on a short break and simply had to try (and support) the line. What a little gem!

I am no expert, just like trains and being a tube user for 40 odd years was lovley to see the 1938. (Ish) stock..... Nostalgic I know!
Went on both the 2 car units and saw another another in the works move 20 yards or so!

It came across to me the staff and passengers do care for the line, friendly guards and staff ... Surprised at Shanklin a ticket office and good newsagents. I did also see another pleasant looking shop at Ryde and think Brading.

The line, 80% nice views of fields etc and built up towards Shanklin. Loading seemed quite healthy, 11am from Shanklin around 25 all the way to Ryde (most to pier head, another gem) and the way back 3pm with well behaved school kids.

The ride is rather sporty ..... Similar to good old tube journeys above ground...... Happy days!!

Would urge anyone who has a few days free to try it out and support the line in a little way.
 

hooverboy

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Have been on the Isle of Wight on a short break and simply had to try (and support) the line. What a little gem!

I am no expert, just like trains and being a tube user for 40 odd years was lovley to see the 1938. (Ish) stock..... Nostalgic I know!
Went on both the 2 car units and saw another another in the works move 20 yards or so!

It came across to me the staff and passengers do care for the line, friendly guards and staff ... Surprised at Shanklin a ticket office and good newsagents. I did also see another pleasant looking shop at Ryde and think Brading.

The line, 80% nice views of fields etc and built up towards Shanklin. Loading seemed quite healthy, 11am from Shanklin around 25 all the way to Ryde (most to pier head, another gem) and the way back 3pm with well behaved school kids.

The ride is rather sporty ..... Similar to good old tube journeys above ground...... Happy days!!

Would urge anyone who has a few days free to try it out and support the line in a little way.

was there myself last weekend. had to be done as I'd never been on a hovercraft before either.
the old tube stock is quite bouncy isn't it??..and the doors take ages to shut!!

got to agree though the staff are top notch,really friendly place
 
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