Island Line Railway - current state and the future

[B&I]

Yes there are, I've made extensive plans for a high speed network connecting these cities ("HS2 and a quarter"), with branches to Alum Bay (for the chairlift), the Needles (for the UK's space port) and Bembridge (for the Airport and the Windmill). Unfortunately none of those crazy politicians take me seriously. But I'll show 'em... come the revolution!

The Needles Spaceport ! Love the sly reference to the British rocket project

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I know, I just hate travelling on buses everywhere, and the sheer amount of rail that was lost just annoys me.

No-one forces you to travel on buses against your will. This is the year 2018, so use alternative options that exist in reality.

 

[Dougal2345]

No-one forces you to travel on buses against your will. This is the year 2018, so use alternative options that exist in reality.

What if there are no alternative options? Not everyone can drive, or cycle long distances, or walk long distances, or afford a taxi. Some of us have to rely on public transport, which comes down to trains or buses. And if there are no trains, that (sadly) means a bus.

 

[A0wen]

What if there are no alternative options? Not everyone can drive, or cycle long distances, or walk long distances, or afford a taxi. Some of us have to rely on public transport, which comes down to trains or buses. And if there are no trains, that (sadly) means a bus.

Maybe so - but that doesn't in any way justify trying to create a completely unviable rail network just so a very small proportion of society can have an alternative to travelling by bus just because they "don't like travelling on buses".

 

[Dougal2345]

Maybe so - but that doesn't in any way justify trying to create a completely unviable rail network just so a very small proportion of society can have an alternative to travelling by bus just because they "don't like travelling on buses".

I wasn't specifically thinking of the Isle of Wight here, just pointing out to the earlier poster that many of us have no choice but to travel by bus, and wondering what the "alternative options that exist in reality" he had in mind were...

 

[Bletchleyite]

I wasn't specifically thinking of the Isle of Wight here, just pointing out to the earlier poster that many of us have no choice but to travel by bus, and wondering what the "alternative options that exist in reality" he had in mind were...

Well, you do have choices, it's just that they may be unpalatable, so the bus is "least worst" in your case.

You could:
- Take a taxi -> too expensive, you might have to give something else up to pay for it?
- Walk -> too slow, too much effort?
- Cycle -> too slow, too much effort, may need to purchase a bicycle if not already owned?
- Not go at all? Downside of this may be greater than downside of going by bus. May not be jobs available locally or unemployment not an option.

 

[A0wen]

I wasn't specifically thinking of the Isle of Wight here, just pointing out to the earlier poster that many of us have no choice but to travel by bus, and wondering what the "alternative options that exist in reality" he had in mind were...

To a greater or lesser extent that's been the case ever since buses and trains were introduced. Yes, some rail lines have closed, the majority of which weren't viable, but the bus services tended to remain due to their greater flexibility and lower running costs - if you want an example take a look at one of my posts in the thread about reopening Carmarthen and Aberystwyth which detailed the costs differences. I'd implied the IoW in my post because that's what this thread is about, but the point is equally applicable to other places. The fact so much of the IoWs netwoellrk closed a decade before Beeching tells you alot about how viable those were - and nothing has fundamentally changed on the IoW which alters that.

As Bletchleyite puts it, it's not that the alternatives don't exist, it's just that they are not to your liking, so the bus is the 'least worst'.

 

[urbophile]

I don't know about the IoW (and I gather its bus network is superior to many) but in general the pattern has been that rail services are withdrawn on the promise of alternative buses, then the bus service is gradually whittled down until it is virtually useless. Certainly that is what has happened over much of rural Britain (and France too I believe).

 

[A0wen]

I don't know about the IoW (and I gather its bus network is superior to many) but in general the pattern has been that rail services are withdrawn on the promise of alternative buses, then the bus service is gradually whittled down until it is virtually useless. Certainly that is what has happened over much of rural Britain (and France too I believe).

But if a bus can't be run viably, why should it be run just on the off-chance somebody might want to travel on it?

In most cases rail lines either linked two fairly significant places or linked somewhere small to somewhere significant and the traffic flows to / from one of the significant places has usually been sufficient to maintain a bus service.

 

[67018]

Given Southern Vectis can't justify a regular bus between Blackgang Chine and Alum Bay - the one which runs is the seasonal tourist one - how on earth do you even begin to think a light rail link there could even be remotely viable?

And between Ventnor and Newport there isn't very much, certainly not enough to justify a light rail link.

Don't forget to factor in the cost of regularly rebuilding any line along the south coast after it falls off the crumbling cliffs. There isn't even a main road from Ventnor to Blackgang any more since a bit of the A3055 collapsed, which speaks volumes about the lack of traffic demand.

 

[Dougal2345]

I don't know about the IoW (and I gather its bus network is superior to many) but in general the pattern has been that rail services are withdrawn on the promise of alternative buses, then the bus service is gradually whittled down until it is virtually useless. Certainly that is what has happened over much of rural Britain (and France too I believe).

Yes I think that was discussed further back in this thread.

If it is proposed to close a railway and replace with a bus service, it may well be that the bus service will be cheaper, more frequent, have stops right in the town centres along the route, maybe have a more modern ambience, etc., etc.. But then when Mr (or Mrs) Private Bus Operator decides he's not making a sufficient profit, the bus service can disappear overnight and you're left with nothing.

But despite that pattern having been repeated over the decades, it doesn't stop numerous postings on this forum (not just this IoW thread) saying "line 'x' is an economic basket case, it needs to be closed and replaced by a bus", and getting quite forceful about it, as though they personally are losing a fortune.

I wouldn't like to guess why people love saying this so much - I assume it's not because they're desperate to save the pennies in tax said line costs them personally each year. Perhaps someone with a greater understanding of human behaviour can enlighten me.

 

[cactustwirly]

Well, you do have choices, it's just that they may be unpalatable, so the bus is "least worst" in your case.

You could:
- Take a taxi -> too expensive, you might have to give something else up to pay for it?
- Walk -> too slow, too much effort?
- Cycle -> too slow, too much effort, may need to purchase a bicycle if not already owned?
- Not go at all? Downside of this may be greater than downside of going by bus. May not be jobs available locally or unemployment not an option.

I agree I hate buses with a strong passion, I would rather cycle or walk than get one!
But if I couldn't walk or cycle, and the bus was the only option then I would begrudgingly get a bus

 

[urbophile]

If it is proposed to close a railway and replace with a bus service, it may well be that the bus service will be cheaper, more frequent, have stops right in the town centres along the route, maybe have a more modern ambience, etc., etc.. But then when Mr (or Mrs) Private Bus Operator decides he's not making a sufficient profit, the bus service can disappear overnight and you're left with nothing.

Exactly. 'Public' transport shouldn't be the opportunity for fly-by-night entrepreneurs to make a quick buck, but should be a public service. And how many 'frequent' bus services are there in the countryside anyway, except perhaps on main routes? Most villages are lucky to get one bus a week.

I don't live in the country, but if I did I would be miffed enough by wealthy commuters and retirees moving in with their Range Rovers, sending their kids to private schools, and ignoring the local shops. It's a national scandal (admittedly, only one among many, but symptomatic) that many rural inhabitants can't afford to buy a house in their home village or have to ship their children to a school miles away. Hence there is no demand for buses (apart from school buses) and an excuse for killing off a community.

 

[A0wen]

Exactly. 'Public' transport shouldn't be the opportunity for fly-by-night entrepreneurs to make a quick buck, but should be a public service. And how many 'frequent' bus services are there in the countryside anyway, except perhaps on main routes? Most villages are lucky to get one bus a week.

I don't live in the country, but if I did I would be miffed enough by wealthy commuters and retirees moving in with their Range Rovers, sending their kids to private schools, and ignoring the local shops. It's a national scandal (admittedly, only one among many, but symptomatic) that many rural inhabitants can't afford to buy a house in their home village or have to ship their children to a school miles away. Hence there is no demand for buses (apart from school buses) and an excuse for killing off a community.

Many of the places which receive one or two buses a week have always been in that position, because there has never been the demand for a more regular service.

Most people who live in rural areas have done so for very many years and have chosen to do so knowing there is only one bus a week.

 

[nuneatonmark]

Came on here hoping to hear more about the future of the island line instead found a debate about how awful or not buses are?

 

[Lockwood]

It's a RailUK Replacement Bus discussion

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Came on here hoping to hear more about the future of the island line instead found a debate about how awful or not buses are?

In the over-1300 postings that have been made upon this thread so far, most permutations of transport modes both past, present and future have already been discussed ad nauseum, so not being unkind to you who has come to the thread at this late state of discussion play, it is very hard to think of any new options to bring to this discussion table without repeating past ideas.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

What if there are no alternative options? Not everyone can drive, or cycle long distances, or walk long distances, or afford a taxi. Some of us have to rely on public transport, which comes down to trains or buses. And if there are no trains, that (sadly) means a bus.

You have answered your own query.

 

[Clayton]

But if a bus can't be run viably, why should it be run just on the off-chance somebody might want to travel on it?

In most cases rail lines either linked two fairly significant places or linked somewhere small to somewhere significant and the traffic flows to / from one of the significant places has usually been sufficient to maintain a bus service.

The trouble with buses, apart from the slowness, lurching ride, and traffic, is that since deregulation they are only run where there is a chance of profit, they are no longer real public transport. There can be a need and demand for a service but it won’t run if a private operator can’t make money from it. Since austerity began socially needed services are no longer subsidised properly.

 

[Chris125]

Given the other problems with the SWR franchise at the moment I seriously doubt the Island Line is a priority, I'd be very surprised if we hear anything anytime soon.

Don't forget the infrastructure lease expires next year, so decisions need to be made in the near future. As SWR have produced their costed plan the ball appears to be in the DfT's court.

 

[A0wen]

The trouble with buses, apart from the slowness, lurching ride, and traffic, is that since deregulation they are only run where there is a chance of profit, they are no longer real public transport. There can be a need and demand for a service but it won’t run if a private operator can’t make money from it. Since austerity began socially needed services are no longer subsidised properly.

Might be worth looking at your history books - bus regulation was only for a *very* short period of time.

Before WW2 "regulation" of the kind many around here dream of didn't happen.

That said the IoW is different in that respect as SVOC have continued to provide an island-wide network including night buses.

 

[jon0844]

Don't forget the infrastructure lease expires next year, so decisions need to be made in the near future. As SWR have produced their costed plan the ball appears to be in the DfT's court.

Chris Grayling will wait until the trains go back to the ROSCO and then claim he didn't know anything until the day before.

 

[Journeyman]

That said the IoW is different in that respect as SVOC have continued to provide an island-wide network including night buses.

Do Southern Vectis have any significant competition? The fact that they operate on an island must be a significant barrier to entry to anyone who wants to take them on - you have to establish new facilities and dedicate vehicles to it, which is a big investment risk, especially given that the IoW is quite sparsely populated and is deserted in the winter.

 

[K.o.R]

I will admit that of the various bus services I have used, the IoW is certainly the one I dislike the least. Hilly and winding roads combined with some rather cavalier double-decker drivers certainly makes it memorable.

 

[K.o.R]

You only go the Alum Bay complex once and then only for five minutes its tacky ,and a place to avoid ,but if you are on the open top bus the journey is excellent and you only stop for a minute.The idea of extensions to rail are not viable as the passenger year round would not support them plus the buses provide excellent services with good connections.Oh and the price of the stair lift down to the bay is very expensive back in the fifties I walked down there for nothing!

The stairs are still there you know

 

[Eyersey468]

AIUI the Freshwater branch never came close to covering even direct costs (fuel, wages etc) from the day it opened until the day it closed the only surprise is that it lasted until 1953

 

[swt_passenger]

Modern Railways October is reporting that 230s are SWR’s preferred solution for the IOW...

 

[K.o.R]

Modern Railways October is reporting that 230s are SWR’s preferred solution for the IOW...

In which mode? Anything but diesel...

 

[Bletchleyite]

In which mode? Anything but diesel...

Hopefully battery EMUs, charged with short lengths of third rail at a couple of stations plus overnight. But then wouldn't that be a 3xx or 5xx, being strict?

 

[K.o.R]

No reason they couldn't nab Classes 530, 430 and 330 too I guess. (though 430 was previously used)