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Island Line Railway - current state and the future

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jon0844

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Well personally I was thinking more about the Virgin Voyagers. After all, the Island line is quite curvy, so having some tilting stock ought to be quite good for allowing faster line-speeds...

Will a Velaro fit in the tunnels?

:)
 
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Chris M

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Aside from anything else, given how the Voyagers cope (or not) at Dawlish I'm not sure that sending them out onto Ryde Pier is the greatest plan!
 

61653 HTAFC

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Open-top buses are always popular at the seaside, so how about taking the roof off some 142s and using those? They'll fit through the tunnel then at least! ;)
 

Harbouring

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I see they have toilet stops as part of the tours... you'd probably need the same on a topless pacer, as 142 loos are poor enough as they are without them having a "Western Saloon" style door arrangement!

On the island line that would mean stopping out in the woods and jumping down from the train.
 

MarkyT

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Open-top buses are always popular at the seaside, so how about taking the roof off some 142s and using those? They'll fit through the tunnel then at least! ;)

Or D-trains! Stagecoach started a new open top bus service this year in Torbay. 5 of the 'hopper' fleet were purposely converted to only partly open upstairs from older enclosed double deckers, but I was told by a driver that the 6th had been decapitated in a low bridge accident in Manchester, hence is fully open on top with only a new windshield at the front!
 

Chris125

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Just had a quick a Southern Vectis site, for price unless it's for a one off return journey the bus is cheaper with a Freedom ticket and afaik it covers the whole Southern Vectis network (don't know about the Coaster or Breezer buses).

There are cheaper season tickets for regular rail users too, but the cost of one-off journeys is pretty important especially for residents.

Does NR actually own the pier? Is the pier listed at all?

Network Rail own and maintain the railway structures, I think everything else is Wightlink.
 

BestWestern

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There are cheaper season tickets for regular rail users too, but the cost of one-off journeys is pretty important especially for residents.



Network Rail own and maintain the railway structures, I think everything else is Wightlink.

Where do the three separate structures (rail, former tramway and foot/roadway), officially meet, I wonder? Certainly there is little apparent distinction between the Wightlink terminal building, the railway platforms and the car park.
 

Chris M

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I haven't been able to definitively find this, but the strong implication is that the whole pier (all three structures) are owned by Wightlink, suggesting that only the railway is owned by NR.
 

61653 HTAFC

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I haven't been able to definitively find this, but the strong implication is that the whole pier (all three structures) are owned by Wightlink, suggesting that only the railway is owned by NR.

If that's the case, it must be pretty unusual for the railway to run over a structure that isn't the railway's responsibility to maintain?
 

Chris125

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I haven't been able to definitively find this, but the strong implication is that the whole pier (all three structures) are owned by Wightlink, suggesting that only the railway is owned by NR.

Everything I've seen and read over the years suggests Network Rail own and are responsible for the railway structures - any confusion is probably due to people thinking that it's the same structure as the listed promenade pier.

Just had a brainwave - you can see exactly what land Network Rail own in the following map, which shows the railway pier and part of the terminal building is indeed under NR ownership:

http://map.whoownsengland.org/
 
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theageofthetra

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I would imagine there is a big impact on pax figures from all those with bus passes who will use the local buses for free but can't use it on the train?
 

61653 HTAFC

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I would imagine there is a big impact on pax figures from all those with bus passes who will use the local buses for free but can't use it on the train?

You've just sparked an idea there... *take cover!*

Given that the situation on the IoW is quite unique as well as being naturally fairly self-contained, would it be an ideal place to experiment with new policies for integration between modes? For example integrated ticketing systems (which outside of London haven't really been truly integrated and universal, even when attempts to make it so have been tried)... I appreciate it isn't as simple as all that, but it's a thought...
 

Chris M

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Everything I've seen and read over the years suggests Network Rail own and are responsible for the railway structures - any confusion is probably due to people thinking that it's the same structure as the listed promenade pier.

The listing text makes it clear that all three - road, tramway and railway - are listed together. This does not necessarily indicate anything about ownership or construction though as multiple independent buildings can be listed together if they have a shared history. Alternatively single structures may have multiple listings, or be only partially listed.
 

Chris M

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If that's the case, it must be pretty unusual for the railway to run over a structure that isn't the railway's responsibility to maintain?

Ownership is not the same as responsibility for maintenance. For example the core East London Line, including the Thames Tunnel, is owned by TfL but maintained by Network Rail.

Just had a brainwave - you can see exactly what land Network Rail own in the following map, which shows the railway pier and part of the terminal building is indeed under NR ownership:

http://map.whoownsengland.org/

That map is only two dimensional. It shows NR own the railway station and thte tracks leading to ot but does not prove (or disprove) ownership of what is below the railway tracks. Indeed the eastern edge of the ownership polygon is not the same as the eastern edge of the pier structure on the map. This could be because NR do not own the full pier, it could be they were mapped at different scales, it could be that they used different (date of) basemapping or a different basemap source, it could be that it's a combination of these or none of these. There is not enough information available to know.
 
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Would the trams used by Birmingham and Edinburgh be a suitable size for the network as they are much smaller from the Manchester trams
 

XDM

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A TOC director told me some time ago that he was in a consortium bidding for the island line franchise in the 1990's.
His consortium lost interest when they learnt they would be responsible for the maintenance of not just the track, but the pier under the track. They could not get anyone to insure the risk if it was storm damaged or if a boat ran into it & they had to repair it.
Presumably Stagecoach had bigger pockets.
It seems to imply that the pier is the responsibility of the TOC. Unusually the Isle of Wight TOC contract also has the TOC responsible for track maintenance & repair.
 

Chris125

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The listing text makes it clear that all three - road, tramway and railway - are listed together.

Are we looking at the same thing? The map on the Historic England site only points to one listing ('The Promenade Pier') whose description only references that structure.

Everything I can recall reading over the years about the pier agrees with this local council document about redeveloping Ryde Esplanade - Wightlink own the tramway pier and the listed 'promenade' pier.

There is not enough information available to know.

I don't see any reason to doubt it - nothing I've read over the years in books, magazine articles and in the local press has suggested otherwise. I'm sure Chris Garnett and Mark Brinton would have mentioned it in their respective reports for example.
 
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xc170

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Only thing I can see happening during this franchise is a refurb/rebuild of the 38 stock and the stations being smartened up.
 
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Only thing I can see happening during this franchise is a refurb/rebuild of the 38 stock and the stations being smartened up.

Practically that might be the best option until underground stock is available. In the meantime they should install ticket barriers at the ryde stations to increase fare collections at the busier stations and get this brading loop installed.
 

Chris125

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SWR have already been reported as promising 'more modern trains' and just a few weeks back Andy Mellor was quoted in RAIL saying that "1938 rolling stock needs replacing" - it seems inconceivable that replacement stock won't feature in the imminent consultation on their plans, or how the DfT could argue otherwise when these are submitted next spring.
 

Chris125

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The DfT's Paul Maynard has had this to say in reply to the local MP, confirming that they expect a costed plan by the end of March next year and that this may impact the payments they receive from SWR.

The infrastructure on the Isle of Wight is owned by Network Rail and the responsibilities for maintenance and renewal of these assets is apportioned between Network Rail and the Train Operating Company (South Western Railway, SWR) under the terms of the lease between these organisations. This lease is due for renewal in 2019.

We would expect Network Rail to make provision for any routine maintenance and renewal works required within their overall cost base for activities for Control Period 6 and to reflect these in the renewed lease. Ultimately, costs falling to Network Rail are borne by the public purse.

In addition to this, South Western Railway are due to submit a costed option to the Secretary of State by the end of March 2018 in relation to the future operation of the Island Line. To the extent that this is acceptable, it may result in an adjustment to franchise payments made to Government by the franchisee. SWR are in the process of consulting with local stakeholders regarding options.
 

trash80

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Apart from the tunnels what other infrastructure would need to be modified for standard sized stock? There will be no shortage of third rail EMUs available in a few years.
 

SpacePhoenix

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Apart from the tunnels what other infrastructure would need to be modified for standard sized stock? There will be no shortage of third rail EMUs available in a few years.

Platform heights (relative to rail level) possibly?
 

Chris M

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Possibly some maintenance facilities in the depot may need resizing, particularly anything to do with anything above the top of window level.
 
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