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Island Line Railway - current state and the future

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Chris M

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I'm pretty sure that the S stock are significantly more power hungry than the C stock they replaced, due to more electronics on board (aircon, CIS, train management computer, etc) so I would imagine that a 21st Century EMU would require more power than a 482. Whether the same is true of a 456 I couldn't say.
 
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Chris125

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Apart from the tunnels what other infrastructure would need to be modified for standard sized stock? There will be no shortage of third rail EMUs available in a few years.

Pre-grouping rolling stock survived to the end of steam for good reason - aside from the tunnel the use of taller, wider 20m+ vehicles would at least need the modification and/or rebuilding of numerous overbridges, platforms and probably the depot too. Any increase in weight would also present issues for some structures I'm sure, and could exacerbate the issues with the track too.
 
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trash80

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I was thinking there would be a lot, i'm wondering what this more modern stock is SWR are thinking of. No tube stock is available yet, unless there is a similar sized metro train from abroad that can be bought in?
 

Chris125

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I was thinking there would be a lot, i'm wondering what this more modern stock is SWR are thinking of. No tube stock is available yet, unless there is a similar sized metro train from abroad that can be bought in?

D78s are the only obvious contender IMO.
 

StephenHunter

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I was thinking there would be a lot, i'm wondering what this more modern stock is SWR are thinking of. No tube stock is available yet, unless there is a similar sized metro train from abroad that can be bought in?

Would small profile Berlin U-Bahn stock work?
 

tspaul26

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4 foot gauge there, so new bogies would be needed.

Sorry for the terse post: was travelling.

To expand somewhat: the Glasgow Subway is in the process of obtaining replacement rolling stock and has a restricted loading gauge (I have difficulty standing and I am not a tall man by any means).

Subject to replacing the bogies, the timing might be considered somewhat fortuitous insofar as the Island Line is concerned.
 

swt_passenger

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Isn’t there some strategically stored 67ts with nothing to do right now?
IIRC from one of the various earlier threads about 38 stock replacement, it was assessed as unsuitable for conversion. One highlight being the lack of driver's doors.
 

MarkyT

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Sorry for the terse post: was travelling.

To expand somewhat: the Glasgow Subway is in the process of obtaining replacement rolling stock and has a restricted loading gauge (I have difficulty standing and I am not a tall man by any means).

Subject to replacing the bogies, the timing might be considered somewhat fortuitous insofar as the Island Line is concerned.
Just a couple of thoughts: Might the bogies be regaugeable with new wheelsets? I.e perhaps the builders used adapted standard gauge bogies for the Glasgow units and the clearance for the wider gauge axles already exists. Alternatively the island network might be converted to 4' gauge! :)
 

paul1609

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Sorry for the terse post: was travelling.

To expand somewhat: the Glasgow Subway is in the process of obtaining replacement rolling stock and has a restricted loading gauge (I have difficulty standing and I am not a tall man by any means).

Subject to replacing the bogies, the timing might be considered somewhat fortuitous insofar as the Island Line is concerned.
Probably be easier to regauge the track, much of its on wooden sleepers anyway, you could put in Brading loop whilst you're doing it.
 

paul1609

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IIRC from one of the various earlier threads about 38 stock replacement, it was assessed as unsuitable for conversion. One highlight being the lack of driver's doors.
Island line would be relatively easy to convert to Driverless operation would cut costs significantly
 

Olaf

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SWR and IoW Authority may want to look at wider options. There is something like a GBP 3.5 Million gap in funding to start with.
 
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Olaf

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Does anyone have any idea how expensive / difficult it would be to simply resolve the clearance issue in the Ryde tunnel?

If it's feasible to do fairly easily, this gives the option to use plenty of forthcoming available DC units - for example retractioned 455s - plus the option of diesel units. Plenty of Pacers from 2020 onwards.

A lot presumably depends on just how feasible it is to keep the 38 stock running. The "do nothing" option has always prevailed to date.

The main realistic option is to shut it down.
 

Olaf

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I predict that the infrastructure will never be improved to allow normal gauge trains; and if ex tube stock cannot be obtained then the line will just face closure.

I expect IOW county council cannot afford it, and central government aren't really interested in it.

As far as I am aware, this is the last position on the line prior to the new franchise announcement:

Tram plan to replace Isle of Wight rail line
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-35495934
- 2016-02-05
...
With passenger numbers falling and annual £3.5m losses, trams would be more "efficient" and "low cost".
The report comes after the government announced plans to remove the service from the next regional train franchise.
The track and entire 1938 train stock on the Island Line needs replacing
...
The service, which costs an annual £4.5m to run for a £1m return, depends on subsidies from other profitable parts of the rail network.
The Department for Transport (DfT) said bidders for the next South Western rail franchise would be asked to turn the line into a self-sustaining business.
...
Author of the independent report, Christopher Garnet, a rail expert who lives on the island, was asked by the Isle of Wight Council to come up with cost-effective ways to keep the service running.
...

There was talk of change of position, but I do not think that will come to anything. The key problem is that there is no benefit from further investment.
 

Olaf

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Yes, but if the Labour party can subsidise the complete modernisation of the Blackpool tram, because of sentimental political attachment why can not the Tory Party do the same for a Southern english icon. As an Islander I find the attachment to a part of England stuck in the 50's (an idea that cripples the Island to extreme Nimbyism) deeply irritating but it what everyone says when the wax on about childhood holidays in the sand and saying how much they love it etc. An investment in Brexit Britain, as it one of those deeply faded seaside resorts areas that aren't part of the London commuter belt.

The best way to modernise the Ilse of Wight and boost the local economy would be to build a toll bridge to the Island.
 

Olaf

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With rail usage growing, are you absolutely sure a railway (running well, with modern stock and a reliable, regular, timetable) wouldn't be successful today?

Look at how London Overground turned around the north London line, and many other examples.

The IoW railway is loosing passengers, costs are rising, and it is facing substantial infrastructure costs just to stand still. To perform an options review will cost more than is collected in revenue in a single year.

Best to put it out of it's misery.
 

Ianno87

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The best way to modernise the Ilse of Wight and boost the local economy would be to build a toll bridge to the Island.

Aren't there two flaws with that (at least one of which may be urban legend):

1. The influx of traffic would cripple the island's road network
2. Grey squirrels would be able to access the island, and would threaten the red squirrel population

?
 

Olaf

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I think to try and argue that the route isn't viable because usage has declined since the 1950's, when every surviving seaside railway no longer sees the crowds of the 1950's, is a bit silly.

Yes, the line might lose money, but it is a classic social railway, assisting a comparatively deprived area cope with seasonal demand for travel. Surely tacking an order onto an upcoming tube order for new stock (as was done with the Waterloo and City line a couple of decades ago) is the most sensible option.

It would be cheaper, and probably more effective to tear-up the tracks, pave it, and open it as a motorised wheelchair freeway. That would satisfy an evident local social commitment.

It is ridiculous to be pouring more funds into the line when significant capital investment is going to be needed.
 

Olaf

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As a point of detail, the road and rail piers are completely separate structures, built at different times by different methods, so there is no concept of 'rail or road sides'. I don't have an opinion on the state of the structure, other than it is unlikely to be that good given its location. The 'road' pier opened 1814, the (disused) tram pier in 1864, and the rail pier in 1880. The tram pier was strong enough to take a temporary pedestrian deck while the road pier was overhauled a few years ago.

The rail pier, from last weekend visit, is in a very poor and deteriorating condition. It may have a few years left, but it looks to be at the point were it is beyond economical repair.
 

Olaf

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The DfT's Paul Maynard has had this to say in reply to the local MP, confirming that they expect a costed plan by the end of March next year and that this may impact the payments they receive from SWR.

Before they can but technical solutions together, then need to address the funding issues:

Island Line needs £40m over next four years
http://www.iwcp.co.uk/news/news/island-line-needs-40m-over-next-four-years-86442.aspx
- 2015-07-23

ISLAND Line which needs GBP 40 million to meet running costs and repairs in the next four years would easier to scrap and replace with a bus service, South West Trains told Isle of Wight MP Andrew Turner in a briefing last year, he revealed today (Thursday).

Among the costs faced if rail services are to be maintained is £8 million of repairs to Ryde Pier, Mr Turner said
...
Mr Turner said: "In May last year I attended a briefing from South West Trains (SWT) at which it was made clear to around 30 stakeholders including the Isle of Wight Council, Wightlink, Hovertravel and the Community Rail Partnership that a sustainable long-term strategy was needed before any further investment could be contemplated.

"To keep Island Line running up to 2019 would take about £40m, including repairs to Ryde Pier at an estimated cost of £8m.

"The expert task-force which would be able to consider future options for Island Line has not even been set up yet. If the Island is to get a fair share of the very substantial infrastructure money available the Council needs to signal their willingness to consider proposals that meet the requirements set out in the Spending Review and do so very quickly.

"Those people pretending there is no option other than to keep Island Line are living in cloud-cuckoo land. Putting their heads in the sand and ignoring what the government is so clearly saying is not going to achieve anything.

"The Council will be asked why the government should continue a £3m annual subsidy to a loss-making enterprise in dire need of substantial investment.

"If they are unwilling even to explore different ways of delivering the service they are in trouble. In my opinion simply saying 'We want things to stay the same’ will not be good enough.

"Even if they could somehow convince the government to continue with the ongoing subsidy it doesn’t address the need for substantial capital investment and Island Line would continue to deteriorate before our eyes.

"I have done my very best to open lines of communication and make it clear that there are ways forward for Island Line that will have the support of government, but the council must now urgently engage in pursuing options that meet the strict criteria set out in the spending review.

"Discussions about the future of Island Line have been going on for well over a year, with little apparent progress and now Ministers will be setting out plans on how to make the necessary savings in a matter of weeks.

"Planning for local transport is devolved to the council, as the local Transport Authority. I have given them all the support and help I can to ensure that Island Line can continue to serve the Island, but after this week’s announcement they need to step up to the mark very quickly."

Different Government and Chancellor now, but still the same people holding the purse strings.
 

Olaf

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Aren't there two flaws with that (at least one of which may be urban legend):

1. The influx of traffic would cripple the island's road network

2. Grey squirrels would be able to access the island, and would threaten the red squirrel population
1. A connection would boost ease of access. Aside from the problem of where to launch the connection from on the mainland, would there be an unmanageable growth in traffic? Any additional road capacity would improve current limitations and contribute to local economy.

2. Give them machine guns:
 

Bletchleyite

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To me the only way to stop the usage decline would be to have it integrated with (run by?) Southern Vectis. A knackered old railway can barely compete with what is probably the best (in quality, frequency and coverage) rural bus service in the UK, possibly even in the world. (It's a bit expensive but the tourists seem not to mind and it's free for passholders anyway).

But realistically it should probably close. A battery powered golf buggy style shuttle or two, or some kind of automated lightweight pier tram/rubber tyred shuttle, would do the job for the passengers who can't/won't walk the pier. (To most people it's a not unpleasant walk unless the weather is terrible - possibly part of the walkway could be enclosed to solve that).

But if the pier is that knackered, should it be demolished and the catamaran perhaps run to Cowes instead? Plenty of Cowes-Ryde buses. [edit: fixed]
 

SpacePhoenix

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If it ever were to close the railway then the local council might have to look at installing some sort of pedestrian crossing at Wootton for people wishing to access the steam railway who are travelling there from the direction of Newport
 

Bletchleyite

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If it ever were to close the railway then the local council might have to look at installing some sort of pedestrian crossing at Wootton for people wishing to access the steam railway who are travelling there from the direction of Newport

If the line closes, the Steam Railway may well be interested in extending to Ryde St John's Road.
 

Bletchleyite

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If the line closes, we'd lose one of the most charming lines in the country. It's not all about money.

It is about money and public transport need.

A preservation group could of course take it over to keep the "charming" nature of it for its own purpose. Or given the Island's nature as a holiday destination, how about railbikes or something?
 
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