Issue with Z1-6 travelcard at King's Cross

[XmaX]

I had a slightly unusual journey yesterday, which ended up being a bit problematic. I had a Cambridge-London Z1-6 off-peak day travelcard valid only on GA. I took the GA train to Tottenham Hale, transferred to the tube, and then to a Thameslink train at Finsbury Park (it's easier to transfer there than to exit the Victoria line platforms at KGX, and the times were right). When I arrived at King's Cross, the gates didn't open, and when I approached the gate staff, I was told that my ticket was GA only and I have clearly just arrived with a non-GA train (which happened to originate in Cambridge). I told him the exact route I took, and he still didn't believe me and aggressively told me to go and buy a valid ticket. After I refused, he directed me to a person who was supposedly his manager nearby, who also didn't really believe my story. Instead, he told me to approach the gates near platform 9, which, according to him, are managed by GA (I didn't wan't to argue that GA doesn't even operate to King's Cross!). I walked there, and I was finally let out, after explaining my route once again. Because of this, I almost lost my train departing from St Pancras 18 minutes after I arrived at KGX.

The question is, what if nobody actually believed my story?

 

[swt_passenger]

The problem is that the ticket barriers will react to the TOC restriction rather than allow it through as a travelcard. I’ve had this at Waterloo with a “Southern” outboundary travelcard. People have explained before that the barriers cannot be programmed to deal with this.

Needs staff to be better trained, so we’ll all have a long wait.

 

[[.n]]

The question is, what if nobody actually believed my story?

If it had've been me I would have just pushed through the barriers anyway (IANAL, but I'd maybe have kicked up a fuss about false imprisonment or something, to attract the attention of a competent manager). I've found staff at KGX to be incredibly unhelpful when I've travelled, in contrast to other stations. And in your scenario of being delayed 18 minutes, I'd ask for an apology and compensation equivalent to Delay Repay 15.

 

[Hadders]

If it had've been me I would have just pushed through the barriers anyway (IANAL, but I'd maybe have kicked up a fuss about false imprisonment or something, to attract the attention of a competent manager). I've found staff at KGX to be incredibly unhelpful when I've travelled, in contrast to other stations. And in your scenario of being delayed 18 minutes, I'd ask for an apology and compensation equivalent to Delay Repay 15.

Don't expect to find a competent manager at Kings Cross.

I had a perfectly valid off peak ticket rejected by the barriers during the evening rush hour. The barrier attendant insisted it wasn't valid. His manager was summonsed who took the side of the barrier attendant, despite me presenting irrefutable evidence of the tickets validity, and even tried to claim that the barriers were intelligently programmed to only accept valid tickets. This incident was witnessed by several senior forum members.

 

[221129]

If it had've been me I would have just pushed through the barriers anyway (IANAL, but I'd maybe have kicked up a fuss about false imprisonment or something, to attract the attention of a competent manager).

You would also most likely find yourself arrested in the process...

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

You would also most likely find yourself arrested in the process...

Isn't the rail industry lovely.... It goes and breaches the contract is has with the passenger in just about as serious a way as is imaginable - demanding additional money on penalty of false imprisonment - and then threatens to have its vigilantes arrest you if you leave the station, having travelled as you are contractually entitled to do!

There has to be a system equivalent to the Penalty Fare/Byelaw 18/RoRA system in operation for passengers' ticketing misdeeds. If an operator accidentally holds up a passenger, as an "honest mistake", that's a Penalty Fare (£20 or twice the fare the passenger has paid, or should that be £80 as it's London/TfL!). If the passenger feels particularly aggrieved they can prosecute the TOC under Passenger Rights Byelaw 18. And if the TOC does it with intent to make pecuniary gain (i.e. extract an additional fare), it's a Regulation of Contract-Breaching TOCs job

If only... The alternative is of course that these matters are kept to what they undeniably ought to be - civil disputes. If the TOC thinks the passenger has the wrong ticket, they should be entitled to have their details, in the same way a shop that alleges a customer has underpaid is entitled to the customer's details (on penalty of prosecution for making off without payment). But there should be no criminal penalties for either party for the breach itself - it should be a purely civil matter without any kind of penalties. It's entirely wrong and unjustifiable that the TOC has so many more powers and rights than the passenger: they manage just fine in Scotland and other countries without these extortionate powers.

 

[jon0844]

Don't expect to find a competent manager at Kings Cross.

I had a perfectly valid off peak ticket rejected by the barriers during the evening rush hour. The barrier attendant insisted it wasn't valid. His manager was summonsed who took the side of the barrier attendant, despite me presenting irrefutable evidence of the tickets validity, and even tried to claim that the barriers were intelligently programmed to only accept valid tickets. This incident was witnessed by several senior forum members.

You'd likely be fine with the GTR staff, but LNER/ex-Virgin staff (or agency) manning the gates on the bridge and platforms 0-8 are very likely going to refuse you.. as happened to me years ago, such that I won't go that way. Far better to go via platforms 9-11 and walk around.

 

[Hadders]

You'd likely be fine with the GTR staff, but LNER/ex-Virgin staff (or agency) manning the gates on the bridge and platforms 0-8 are very likely going to refuse you.. as happened to me years ago, such that I won't go that way. Far better to go via platforms 9-11 and walk around.

But when you've walked up the Grays Inn Road and your train is leaving imminently from platform 6 you really don't want the hassle of having to detour via platforms 9-11. As it happened I was reluctantly let through and told I'd be dealt with onboard.

I complained to VTEC (as it was them) who gave me a load of wibble about the ticket not being valid so escalated to David Horne who's office promised an investigation but I never heard a thing. I decided to let it drop as I didn't want to draw too much attention to the ticket I was using. (Y4 restriction for anyone who's wondering but it is competitively priced for the journey I was making)

 

[Coolzac]

Isn't the rail industry lovely.... It goes and breaches the contract is has with the passenger in just about as serious a way as is imaginable - demanding additional money on penalty of false imprisonment - and then threatens to have its vigilantes arrest you if you leave the station, having travelled as you are contractually entitled to do!

There has to be a system equivalent to the Penalty Fare/Byelaw 18/RoRA system in operation for passengers' ticketing misdeeds. If an operator accidentally holds up a passenger, as an "honest mistake", that's a Penalty Fare (£20 or twice the fare the passenger has paid, or should that be £80 as it's London/TfL!). If the passenger feels particularly aggrieved they can prosecute the TOC under Passenger Rights Byelaw 18. And if the TOC does it with intent to make pecuniary gain (i.e. extract an additional fare), it's a Regulation of Contract-Breaching TOCs job

If only... The alternative is of course that these matters are kept to what they undeniably ought to be - civil disputes. If the TOC thinks the passenger has the wrong ticket, they should be entitled to have their details, in the same way a shop that alleges a customer has underpaid is entitled to the customer's details (on penalty of prosecution for making off without payment). But there should be no criminal penalties for either party for the breach itself - it should be a purely civil matter without any kind of penalties. It's entirely wrong and unjustifiable that the TOC has so many more powers and rights than the passenger: they manage just fine in Scotland and other countries without these extortionate powers.

I love this post- and completely agree. I understand that everyone, including businesses, make mistakes, but when they a) make mistakes that incorrectly charge customers extra and/or delay to their journey and b) punish consumers for making mistakes it feels like high time the situation is re-balanced!

 

[jon0844]

But when you've walked up the Grays Inn Road and your train is leaving imminently from platform 6 you really don't want the hassle of having to detour via platforms 9-11. As it happened I was reluctantly let through and told I'd be dealt with onboard.

Perhaps bad wording on my part. It's hardly ideal, but after missing my train due to arguing about the validity of an off peak return (to Hatfield, which isn't restricted in the evening peak) that's what I'd seek to do.

 

[Mag_seven]

The problem is that the ticket barriers will react to the TOC restriction rather than allow it through as a travelcard. I’ve had this at Waterloo with a “Southern” outboundary travelcard. People have explained before that the barriers cannot be programmed to deal with this.

Does that mean it will be rejected at every single NR ticket barrier in the travelcard area?

 

[Hadders]

Does that mean it will be rejected at every single NR ticket barrier in the travelcard area?

No. Probably just Waterloo and maybe others in SWR land.

 

[Clip]

Isn't the rail industry lovely.... It goes and breaches the contract is has with the passenger in just about as serious a way as is imaginable - demanding additional money on penalty of false imprisonment - and then threatens to have its vigilantes arrest you if you leave the station, having travelled as you are contractually entitled to do!

Before you get on your outrage bus once again, can you please take the time to read the post that was being quoted - that they would push through the barriers which in itself is a bylaw offence i do believe. And all this premise of false imprisonment - it must be a joke or did you find that on google too?

 

[Clip]

No. Probably just Waterloo and maybe others in SWR land.

Which other Network Rail managed stations would they be then in the SWR and Travelcard area?

 

[PeterC]

Considering that the OP arrived on a direct train from Cambridge is it suprising that the first reaction of the gateline staff was "pull the other one"?

 

[swt_passenger]

Which other Network Rail managed stations would they be then in the SWR and Travelcard area?

I don’t think NR management is the issue. They will have nothing to do with the operation of ticket barriers or training of the staff.

Waterloo main, although a NR managed station, is also a single TOC, and almost all visible staff are SWR.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Considering that the OP arrived on a direct train from Cambridge is it suprising that the first reaction of the gateline staff was "pull the other one"?

Perhaps not surprising, but still not acceptable.

 

[Be3G]

I seem to recall that a magstripe records the last gate it was passed through? If so, whilst inconvenient, I suppose that suggesting a particularly belligerent member of staff checks the magstripe might be a way of persuading them that the ticket has been used correctly.

 

[Ianno87]

Perhaps not surprising, but still not acceptable.

It's fair to challenge with a "where have you just travelled from?", and then see if it seems like a genuine response. I reckon there's a fair few tourists from Cambridge sold GA only tickets without understanding what this actually means, so it'll be a common issue at King's Cross.

Does seem a bit odd the jump off the Victoria line at Finsbury Park to climb the various staircases, versus the escalators available at King's Cross...

 

[swt_passenger]

I seem to recall that a magstripe records the last gate it was passed through? If so, whilst inconvenient, I suppose that suggesting a particularly belligerent member of staff checks the magstripe might be a way of persuading them that the ticket has been used correctly.

I shouldn't think your average bloke at a ticket barrier has the tech to read it...

 

[MikeWh]

It's fair to challenge with a "where have you just travelled from?", and then see if it seems like a genuine response. I reckon there's a fair few tourists from Cambridge sold GA only tickets without understanding what this actually means, so it'll be a common issue at King's Cross.

Does seem a bit odd the jump off the Victoria line at Finsbury Park to climb the various staircases, versus the escalators available at King's Cross...

The OP seemed to feel the distance travelled at Finsbury Park is a lot shorter than that at Kings Cross. Having used Kings Cross for the Victoria line I have some sympathy.

Looking at things a different way: The OP may have been doing all kinds of travel using the travelcard element and just happened to end up on a Cambridge to Kings Cross train from Finsbury Park as part of that travel. I think that as long as the train has called within zones 1-6 before the ticket is checked then the benefit of the doubt has to be given.

 

[Hadders]

Which other Network Rail managed stations would they be then in the SWR and Travelcard area?

I took it that NR ment National Rail rather than Network Rail. Although Network Rail manage certain large stations their staff don't operate any gatelines.

 

[Be3G]

I shouldn't think your average bloke at a ticket barrier has the tech to read it...

Indeed, but my thinking is that if someone in the OP's position were to implore said member of rail staff to check it to prove his/her innocence, it would either: A. persuade the member of staff that the ticket holder really is innocent, or B. at least compel them to go and find a piece of equipment that can read the magstripe rather than continuing to make accusations.

 

[jon0844]

Gateline staff at King's Cross can't disprove the claim the passenger boarded at Finsbury Park (easily at least, and nobody is going to give access to CCTV unless it's a regular thing for the same person).

That's what Passenger Hosts are there for. They check on the train and would know if the person was on the train beforehand.

So, once someone says they got on within the zones then they must be believed (and, if there is suspicion, make a note for further investigation - such as targeting trains for onboard checks).

 

[Wallsendmag]

Ah Kings Cross Cubic gates one of LNER's great mysteries.

 

[Warwick]

Before you get on your outrage bus once again, can you please take the time to read the post that was being quoted - that they would push through the barriers which in itself is a bylaw offence i do believe. And all this premise of false imprisonment - it must be a joke or did you find that on google too?

Legally - I have a lovely friend who's a lawyer who's advised me thus - if you have a valid ticket and a ticket operated barrier is not letting you out and the barrier staff insist that your (valid) ticket is not valid and refuse to let you through they are guilty of "impedance" which is sort of one step down from false imprisonment.

The final paragraph of "ForTheLoveOf" post is so true.

 

[Haywain]

The problem is that the ticket barriers will react to the TOC restriction rather than allow it through as a travelcard.

That is correct, and there is no desire to accept tickets with a 'Greater Anglia only' restriction at Kings Cross as this would allow cheaper Cambridge tickets through. The Travelcard issue is an unfortunate side effect and can also be seen with a couple of other TOC specific routeings.

Does that mean it will be rejected at every single NR ticket barrier in the travelcard area?

No, because only a very small number will be programmed to reject tickets with such a route code.

I seem to recall that a magstripe records the last gate it was passed through?

It does, but not in a sense that is of any significant use. It gives a 3 digit code indicating the barrier line or station, and the time in 5 minute units. The station code would only be useful if anyone had a full list of them. Plus mag stripe readers are rather thin on the ground these days - I used to use an Avantix machine for that.

 

[[.n]]

Before you get on your outrage bus once again, can you please take the time to read the post that was being quoted - that they would push through the barriers which in itself is a bylaw offence i do believe. And all this premise of false imprisonment - it must be a joke or did you find that on google too?

So I have a legal ticket, I am trapped on the other side of a barrier, by someone against my will. They have zero legitimate reason to hold me - what would you call this? (The anser eeems to be impedance from another post on the thread).

Ditto with the barrier not working, there are so many places and occassions where you have no other option but to push through them for a whole range of reasons, mainly because of the lack of staff, or just becuase of the sheer crush of people.

 

[[.n]]

You would also most likely find yourself arrested in the process...

If there were BTP staff around, and what for - using a legal ticket?

Isn't the rail industry lovely.... It goes and breaches the contract is has with the passenger in just about as serious a way as is imaginable - demanding additional money on penalty of false imprisonment - and then threatens to have its vigilantes arrest you if you leave the station, having travelled as you are contractually entitled to do!

Yes totally agree, IME gateline staff are the worst, without a proper understanding of the rules they are supposed to be enforcing (because of a lack of training and managers who are compotent). A complete contrast to ticket office and on-board staff. And yes this is a sweeping generialisation, but for me as someone who had makes 1000s of journeys I think is a reasonable observation.

 

[Haywain]

there are so many places and occassions where you have no other option but to push through them

Strangely, this is something I have never experienced.

If there were BTP staff around, and what for - using a legal ticket?

OK, maybe you wouldn't get arrested but you might well need to spend some time explaining your actions. Why aggravate a situation?