It wasn’t me! Penalty fine

[Johnjones76560]

Hi, looking for some advice please.

I recieved a further steps notice for a penalty fine and after going back to them with info HMCTS have sent me a plea form and statutory declaration.

Apparently the original fine was sent to my old address which is why I didn’t receive the first letter and only received the further steps notice. They have included a copy of it with this new letter.

Anyways, it wasn’t me, I was in uni at the time. Going to speak to them on Monday to see if they have some sort of register they can provide me with but does anyone have any advice on what else to say? I am obviously pleading not guilty but they are asking for a rationale why and I’m scared to have to go to court so would love to get it sorted before that.

Thanks in advance!

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Hi, looking for some advice please.

I recieved a further steps notice for a penalty fine and after going back to them with info HMCTS have sent me a plea form and statutory declaration.

Apparently the original fine was sent to my old address which is why I didn’t receive the first letter and only received the further steps notice. They have included a copy of it with this new letter.

Anyways, it wasn’t me, I was in uni at the time. Going to speak to them on Monday to see if they have some sort of register they can provide me with but does anyone have any advice on what else to say? I am obviously pleading not guilty but they are asking for a rationale why and I’m scared to have to go to court so would love to get it sorted before that.

Thanks in advance!

Welcome to the forum.

Stating that it wasn't you is (at this point) good enough for the rationale as to why you are looking to have everything rolled back.

The formal legal position is that it will be for the prosecution to prove that it was you that they are pursuing rather than you to prove that it wasn't, but in practice it would be good to find evidence that it can't have been you. If you're lucky then the offence was in (say) London while you were (per your location) in Newcastle: if you have anything to prove that you were doing things in Newcastle at the time of the offence (you're looking to see if the university keeps a register of where you were, and there may be things like buying a coffee with a debit card, or getting a book out of the university library that will leave an audit trail) then that will be good. If it turns out that the offence was somewhere where you could have been (so if you're in Newcastle the offence was also in Newcastle) then things will be more difficult: again see if you can find anything that shows precisely where you were at the time: if you were indeed on the train or station at the time in question then start looking for evidence that you had bought a valid ticket (card statements again, your account details if you bought a ticket on line). And also be prepared to share a picture of your driving licence, passport or other photo id - if you don't look like the offender who was stopped, then that suggests you aren't the offender!

 

[Mcr Warrior]

@Johnjones76560. If your forum user name reflects your actual name, there must be any number of similarly named persons out there. Could be that the person originally stopped just plucked a random name out of thin air. Good luck in sorting this all out.

 

[Johnjones76560]

Thx! I’m just concerned that I’m already behind as I missed the initial letters and am concerned it will be sent straight to court!

Unfortunately I was in Newcastle at the time and the offence is in Newcastle! However I was in uni so just hoping I can prove that.

I find it really strange that it went to my old address. The only photo ID I have that has both my photo & address on is my driving licence which I’ve had for 2 years and has my new address on! That’s why I’m assuming someone gave my name and didn’t know my new address? The letter doesn’t say the ticket inspector was shown any ID though?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Could be that the person stopped possibly does know you, and has landed you in it. Maybe someone else at the University?

 

[Snow1964]

Could be that the person stopped possibly does know you, and has landed you in it. Maybe someone else at the University?

Or possibly doesn't know you, but has subsequently moved into your old university accomodation and has seen mail with your name on that arrived after you left.

Even if you have Royal Mail forwarding my experience is about 20% of letters seem to miss the auto-forwarding, and you only get them if someone writes please forward and reposts it.

 

[Johnjones76560]

Problem is I’m clueless as to what happens when you’re stopped and you don’t have a ticket! Do they ask for ID? What if you don’t have it?? Do they just accept your word? I assume they have to! So anyone that knows your name and address could pretend to be you!

 

[Pushpit]

So anyone that knows your name and address could pretend to be you!

Yes, I think the industry knows this, and in the absence of compulsory ID cards, and a legal right to see that ID, the train companies have to make do with what they get. Based on an incident I saw in Newcastle a few days ago, the process is that the RPI ensures their camcorder is switched on, reads a script similar (but not the same) as the police warning at the point of arrest, asks a few specific questions around whether the traveller intended to pay / has the money for their fare, then spends a long time typing up notes on their device. They ask for name, postcode, address check, and ID. If someone doesn't have ID, or refuses to show it, then there isn't a lot that the RPI can do but use the address as given. This can be checked against credit check agencies databases, but in your case it would give a green light - you have lived there recently. Unfortunately the train companies won't readily let you see the camcorder footage, so you could perhaps identify the bounder who used your good name.

You don't have Google Timeline switched on perhaps? That would be good evidence as to where you were at the time in question.

 

[WesternLancer]

Problem is I’m clueless as to what happens when you’re stopped and you don’t have a ticket! Do they ask for ID? What if you don’t have it?? Do they just accept your word? I assume they have to! So anyone that knows your name and address could pretend to be you!

Can you establish from the court paperwork which Train company is trying to prosecute you? If so you should urgently contact their revenue and prosecutions team (in writing or by e-mail - do not try to phone people about this as that is largely a waste of time - you need an audit trail of your efforts to sort this out). We can help you with contact details for the relevant train company prosecutions team for example.

When they stop someone for fare evasion they usually take a basic description of the person stopped (or use body cam to record the person), this isn't perfect place to start, but by sharing your own photo ID with the railway company they may be able to accept that as proof you are not the person who gave your name and address (rather depends on how much detail was taken by the ticket checker of course, if body cam footage not used) - but it is start.

You would then need to write clearly to them saying you have received court paperwork but you believe someone has given your name and address, you were not on a train, this is a copy of my ID, please can you withdraw the court case as I will be pleading not guilty etc.

What is the date on the court papers for return of anything to the court or the date of the hearing - basically that is the timeline you have to try and get this sorted out. But you will not be the first person this has happened to so the train company and the court will have seen it before.

However, in all this you must not lie (lying to avoid court or lying to a court is way more serious than a train fare evasion guilty verdict!) - so do carefully search your memory if there has been any incident at all where you were travelling and a question was raised about a ticket. I'm not saying you are a liar of course, just saying you need to be 100% sure it was not you. And of course it sounds like you are pretty sure about that!

You will get the help here you need to sort this out.

Also if you are a student then it may be your Student Union advice centre can help you with this problem.

Finally it's likely your details were actually given by someone who knows you or who maybe took post from your Uni hall of residence or such like. So as a general check make sure anything like your bank account or things you have registered to a postal address are up to date with a current address for you to ensure post is not going to old addresses where people can make malicious use of it.

 

[Johnjones76560]

Thanks. This is really useful advice. It’s nexus Tyne and wear who run the metro. I have tried looking but can’t seem to find revenue protection contact details!

Do I need a witness to the statutory declaration? There’s a section that says ‘declared before me’ and has space for a signature and a date. Then to the side it has this

[Magistrate]

[District Judge (Magistrates' Court)]

[Solicitor / Commissioner for Oaths]



So do I need to get one of these people to witness my signature? If so how on earth do I do that??? And how much will that cost me?

Also apart from sending the form back registered post is there any other advice or tips please?

 

[AlterEgo]

Problem is I’m clueless as to what happens when you’re stopped and you don’t have a ticket! Do they ask for ID? What if you don’t have it?? Do they just accept your word? I assume they have to! So anyone that knows your name and address could pretend to be you!

There’s no requirement to carry ID in this country so you can quite easily just claim to be someone else.

 

[swt_passenger]

Can you establish from the court paperwork which Train company is trying to prosecute you? If so you should urgently contact their revenue and prosecutions team (in writing or by e-mail - do not try to phone people about this as that is largely a waste of time - you need an audit trail of your efforts to sort this out). We can help you with contact details for the relevant train company prosecutions team for example.

I believe from what’s been posted here already the prosecution in court has already happened, and a person giving the OP’s details’ has been fined in their absence.. The ‘further steps notice’ is the court trying to recover the fine and costs.

I’m also thinking the words ‘penalty fine’ in the title are possibly a misunderstanding, the OP is thinking of penalty fares, which don’t appear to feature in this problem.

 

[WesternLancer]

I believe from what’s been posted here already the prosecution in court has already happened, and a person giving the OP’s details’ has been fined in their absence.. The ‘further steps notice’ is the court trying to recover the fine and costs.

I’m also thinking the words ‘penalty fine’ in the title are possibly a misunderstanding, the OP is thinking of penalty fares, which don’t appear to feature in this problem.

ah thanks for pointing this out, my apologies. - the OP may need different advice from what I posted as of course this is now going to be more complicated to untangle I fear.

Does the OP need to go down the Statutory Declaration Route? If so they may need some guidance on that.

 

[Johnjones76560]

Sorry if I’ve asked the wrong question as I don’t understand any of the terminology!

However, yes they’ve sent me a statutory declaration form to fill out! Any advice is appreciated!

 

[SussexMan]

and a person giving the OP’s details’ has been fined in their absence..

I would suggest that the OP has been fined (and found guilty) in their absence. That is why they need to do the statutory declaration.

 

[tixy]

Sorry if I’ve asked the wrong question as I don’t understand any of the terminology!

However, yes they’ve sent me a statutory declaration form to fill out! Any advice is appreciated!

The further steps notice is the court attempting to recover a post conviction fine.

This means that you have been convicted in your absence and fined.

As you told the court that this is the first time you have heard about this, they have sent a form called a Statutory Declaration.

This is a declaration you make on oath that you knew nothing of the proceedings.

This form cannot be filled in and simply posted. You will need to make the declaration before either the court which is free, or a solicitor who will charge approximately £5 for the privilege.

What will happen then is that the court will send you a summons to either attend court, or plead by post.

As a further steps notice has been issued, it is important not to delay in lodging the statutory declaration as usually the court are quick at issuing a warrant for bailiffs shortly after.

To make the declaration in court, you can call the listings team at your local court for a slot to make the declaration.

If you choose a solicitor, make sure the form is sent complete by special delivery and call the fines officer to tell them what you have done, so they can hold any enforcement action.

Other members on here can help guide you through process once you have made the declaration.

 

[WesternLancer]

Sorry if I’ve asked the wrong question as I don’t understand any of the terminology!

However, yes they’ve sent me a statutory declaration form to fill out! Any advice is appreciated!

Ok. Don’t send that back until people post with advice about it. There are some court experts on this forum who when they catch up with this will have useful info. @island and @Puffing Devil come to mind and might have helpful thoughts.

I think @martinchapman8 may be well informed about the process if the court is trying to collect fine from you and you dispute that this is you.

The further steps notice is the court attempting to recover a post conviction fine.

This means that you have been convicted in your absence and fined.

As you told the court that this is the first time you have heard about this, they have sent a form called a Statutory Declaration.

This is a declaration you make on oath that you knew nothing of the proceedings.

This form cannot be filled in and simply posted. You will need to make the declaration before either the court which is free, or a solicitor who will charge appropriately £5 for the privilege.

What will happen then is that the court will send you a summons to either attend court, or plead by post.

As a further steps notice has been issued, it is important not to delay in lodging the statutory declaration as usually the court are quick at issuing a warrant for bailiffs shortly after.

To make the declaration in court, you can call the listings team at your local court for a slot to make the declaration.

If you choose a solicitor, make sure the form is sent complete by special delivery and call the fines officer to tell them what you have done, so they can hold any enforcement action.

Other members on here can help guide you through process once you have made the declaration.

I see you were already composing a very helpful post when I just posted!

 

[Johnjones76560]

The further steps notice is the court attempting to recover a post conviction fine.

This means that you have been convicted in your absence and fined.

As you told the court that this is the first time you have heard about this, they have sent a form called a Statutory Declaration.

This is a declaration you make on oath that you knew nothing of the proceedings.

This form cannot be filled in and simply posted. You will need to make the declaration before either the court which is free, or a solicitor who will charge appropriately £5 for the privilege.

What will happen then is that the court will send you a summons to either attend court, or plead by post.

As a further steps notice has been issued, it is important not to delay in lodging the statutory declaration as usually the court are quick at issuing a warrant for bailiffs shortly after.

To make the declaration in court, you can call the listings team at your local court for a slot to make the declaration.

If you choose a solicitor, make sure the form is sent complete by special delivery and call the fines officer to tell them what you have done, so they can hold any enforcement action.

Other members on here can help guide you through process once you have made the declaration.

Thanks. 2 stupid questions if I may

1. Do I have to fill out the wording in front of the solicitor or can I have that already filled in & they just witness the signature? Just thinking if I have to write it whilst they’re in front of me I’ll take a piece of paper with it on to copy to make sure I get it right.

2. Who is the fines officer? Is it on the HMCTS letter? Or is it someone to do with the train company?

Thanks in advance!

 

[tixy]

Also, to make things concrete, you could also approach your uni for a statement declaring you were on campus at the time of the alleged offence. Also things like a screenshot of your Google maps timeline may also help here. Gathering evidence that you were not on the railway at the time will help against any evidence the railway provide. It is however up to the railway company to prove that you were travelling at the time so requesting disclosure from the prosecution may help too, such as bodyworn (if used) and CCTV under GDPR may help.

There are some other members clued up here who can talk you through whether this is possible or not.

In the meantime, please can you post the court papers (the summons) with your personal info redacted. It helps the forum gauge the facts and advise appropriately

 

[Johnjones76560]

Thanks. I’m going to speak to uni on Monday. I’ve gone back through my bank statements but they don’t really prove anything. Also checked google timeline and it was turned off unfortunately

 

[tixy]

Thanks. 2 stupid questions if I may

1. Do I have to fill out the wording in front of the solicitor or can I have that already filled in & they just witness the signature? Just thinking if I have to write it whilst they’re in front of me I’ll take a piece of paper with it on to copy to make sure I get it right.

2. Who is the fines officer? Is it on the HMCTS letter? Or is it someone to do with the train company?

Thanks in advance!

1. Take the blank form to the solicitor. They will make sure it’s filled out correctly. After all that’s why you are paying them

2. This is the HMCTS fines officer (tel:0191 298 2280 if it’s Newcastle Magistrates Court)

Newcastle upon Tyne Crown Court and Magistrates' Court - Find a Court or Tribunal - GOV.UK

Newcastle upon Tyne Crown Court and Magistrates' Court - Find contact details, opening times, how to get to here, types of cases managed, disabled access to the building

www.find-court-tribunal.service.gov.uk

You will find emails for the departments here too.

 

[Puffing Devil]

Thanks. 2 stupid questions if I may

1. Do I have to fill out the wording in front of the solicitor or can I have that already filled in & they just witness the signature? Just thinking if I have to write it whilst they’re in front of me I’ll take a piece of paper with it on to copy to make sure I get it right.

2. Who is the fines officer? Is it on the HMCTS letter? Or is it someone to do with the train company?

Thanks in advance!

1. Take the blank form to the solicitor. They will make sure it’s filled out correctly. After all that’s why you are paying them

2. This is the HMCTS fines officer (tel:0191 298 2280 if it’s Newcastle Magistrates Court)

Newcastle upon Tyne Crown Court and Magistrates' Court - Find a Court or Tribunal - GOV.UK

Newcastle upon Tyne Crown Court and Magistrates' Court - Find contact details, opening times, how to get to here, types of cases managed, disabled access to the building

www.find-court-tribunal.service.gov.uk

You will find emails for the departments here too.

There is useful information on the form and the process on the HMCTS page <LINK>

You SHOULD complete the form before going to the Solicitor, as you are paying them to witness the declaration, and it's a peppercorn fee of £5. If you want them to do more work for you, they are well within their rights to charge you. If you're struggling with any of the items on the form, post here for advice, or simply leave them blank.

Do not sign and date the declaration until the solicitor asks you to. Ask them for a certified copy of the completed declaration - there will be a small charge for this.

There's no harm in sending a not-guilty plea back with your declaration. The next steps will be another day in court for a pre-trial review. Here you'll get to meet the prosecutor and understand their evidence, though you will want to try to work with them before this date to have the matter dropped. If the train company cannot be persuaded to drop the case, and it certainly wasn't you they stopped, you'll need to go to trial.

As everyone else has said - please post all your documentation with name, address and references blanked out.

 

[DH159]

Puffing Devil is absolutely right. A solicitor can’t witness a stat dec if they also prepared it. So you end up paying an hourly rate to one and then the statutory fee of £5 to another.

 

[tixy]

Puffing Devil is absolutely right. A solicitor can’t witness a stat dec if they also prepared it. So you end up paying an hourly rate to one and then the statutory fee of £5 to another.

I Stand Corrected. I’ve had a look at other posts, what others have done is draft the completion of the form, post it on here for others to help get the wording right, then take it to the solicitors with the necessary parts completed.

 

[island]

Indeed. You can also make the declaration for free before a Justice of the Peace (Magistrate) at your local Magistrates' court. Some courts will accommodate this on a walk-up basis during court hours although others will expect you to ring for an appointment. They will also take the form off you there and then.

 

[Puffing Devil]

Indeed. You can also make the declaration for free before a Justice of the Peace (Magistrate) at your local Magistrates' court. Some courts will accommodate this on a walk-up basis during court hours although others will expect you to ring for an appointment. They will also take the form off you there and then.

Though you run the risk of an immediate re-opening of the matter, especially if you attend by appointment. It's not so good if you're looking to work out a deal with the TOC to keep it out of court, though not the case here, where it's a not guilty plea.

 

[Haywain]

Though you run the risk of an immediate re-opening of the matter, especially if you attend by appointment. It's not so good if you're looking to work out a deal with the TOC to keep it out of court, though not the case here, where it's a not guilty plea.

If it is a different magistrates court than originally heard the case, will they have the details of the case available to immediately rehear it? And, if not, how can the accused be expected to enter a plea without knowing what evidence has been presented (that is leaving aside that the plea is clear cut in this case)?

 

[tixy]

If it is a different magistrates court than originally heard the case, will they have the details of the case available to immediately rehear it? And, if not, how can the accused be expected to enter a plea without knowing what evidence has been presented (that is leaving aside that the plea is clear cut in this case)?

The court will only have a brief amount owing on the fines account. If you walk in and want a SD, but the court is out of area, they will take the form and SD, ask for a plea. As the plea will be a straight forward it wasn’t me not guilty plea the court will likely adjourn to allow transfer of the papers and to inform the prosecution.

 

[Puffing Devil]

If it is a different magistrates court than originally heard the case, will they have the details of the case available to immediately rehear it? And, if not, how can the accused be expected to enter a plea without knowing what evidence has been presented (that is leaving aside that the plea is clear cut in this case)?

If the case was proved in absence, the court should have the prosecution evidence and statement on file. They can take a plea immediately and resentence for a Guilty Plea based on the paperwork. A not-guilty plea would set a date for a pre-trial review when the TOC prosecutor would be available.

This is why people who are guilty should not swear in court, unless they are happy to accept a swift sentencing hearing. By using a solicitor, there is time to re-engage with the TOC before needing to enter a guilty plea in court and hopefully obtain an out-of-court settlement. You could plead Not Guilty when the case is re-opened, though you will lose some of the early guilty plea discount on the fine and risk increasing the costs from the TOC side.

 

[Haywain]

the court should have the prosecution evidence and statement on file.

Yes, but my question was about going to a different court; for example, being convicted in London and doing the SD in Manchester. Would the Manchester court have access to the prosecution evidence and statement?