It's finally occured... (daft fare)

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yorkie

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I have been watching (National Express) East Coast (I assume the useless anti-customer managers are the same anyway) increase the price of York to Doncaster (and Conisbrough) aggressively at every opportunity. Meanwhile Northern are far more reasonable to Sheffield (and Mexborough). Under BR the fare to Sheffield cost more than Doncaster, but I knew it was just a matter of time before this was reversed....

The Off Peak ticket is now an absolute joke at £19.30 between York and Doncaster. There is now a Super Off Peak at £18.60 valid after 0930. This means the Off Peak is no longer regulated. A cynical move by this "public" company that is making GNER look brilliant in comparison.

Why would anyone buy these fares? Only if they are unaware that they are being defrauded.

Why would anyone pay 40p more for a ticket that is valid for a few miles less distance and severely restricted by time?

It's £18.20 to Mexborough, and that's an SOR (Anytime). Sheffield is a mere 60p more.

East Coast are blatantly ripping people off. They are defrauding their customers by knowingly, wilfully charging a higher fare than the correct fare charged by Northern for a longer journey. If this is not a criminal act then the law should be changed.

Elaine "Penalty fare" Holt should hang her head in shame.

Bring back GNER! At least they introduced CDRs. And the fare under them from York to Doncaster was only £5.00 for an Off Peak Day Return which they introduced in approx 2000/2001. The Off Peak Day return is now £11.70.

York - Doncaster or Conisbrough SVR £19.30
York - Doncaster or Conisbrough SSR £18.60
York - Mexborough SOR £18.20
York - Sheffield or Dronfield SOR £18.80

I wonder what CrossCountry guards think when they check tickets and see people paying less to go to Sheffield than to Donny !

(For anyone unfamiliar with the route, the stop after Donny is Conisbrough, then Mexborough, Swinton, [Rotherham], Meadowhall, Sheffield)

Even a Cattal to Dronfield SOR is 50p cheaper than York-Doncaster SVR, despite that journey being via York, Doncaster and Sheffield (but equally valid via Leeds or Pontefract). Yes, an extra 35 miles costs 50p less. Madness!!!
 
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paul1609

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Whilst I agree that £19.30 looks steep for York and Doncaster you have to ask why Northern owns the fares to Mexborough and Sheffield. Surely everyone would change at Doncaster for Mexborough so EC should own the fare. With Sheffield surely it should be either XC or EC?
 

David

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Think that's bad, try living in Scunthorpe where there is hardly and day return fares ....

Scunthorpe - York £20.30 Super Offpeak, £20.90 Offpeak return £40 Anytime return - No CDR fare available (and there hasn't been for years). The fares for Northallerton are nearly double that.

Day returns are available to Doncaster, Leeds, Retford, Sheffield and Chesterfield and stations in between. Of those, Travelling to Leeds, I have to get an Anytime ticket, as there is no other available. Retford I have to get a Anytime Day return is coming back the same day.

The ticketing system needs a complete overhaul with more day returns being added (not just Anytime Day Returns either).

Yorkie, be fair to Elaine Holt, as a lot of these price rises would have been in the system before DOR took over.
 

ashworth

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Slightly off topic but still fares in the same area to/from York.

A CDR from Retford to York is £14.50 or £20 for an Off Peak Return.
This same fare is also available from Worksop and from stations down Worksop-Nottingham (Robin Hood Line) as far south as Shirebrook, only approx 5 miles north of Mansfield. This fare is only avialble by changing at Worksop and retford and not via Sheffield.

However, from Mansfield the cheapest pay on the day fare is the Off Peak Return at £39.50 via Sheffield or £39.30 via Retford.
Mansfield fares are valid via Worksop or via Nottingham but are even a few pounds more expensive than from Nottingham.

I bet any passengers buying a return from Mansfield to York are not told that it is much less than half price from the next station up the line!
 

yorkie

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What's your view on the validity of a ticket to Shireoaks?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Yorkie, be fair to Elaine Holt, as a lot of these price rises would have been in the system before DOR took over.
They've had enough time to get rid of them. Also National Express had years in which to think of this but didn't do it. There's no evidence either way to suggest whether it was NX's idea or DOR's idea, but it is DOR who are implementing this, and they must accept the blame. They could so easily have cancelled it but have failed to do so. If they retract the fares like Virgin did last year then I'll withdraw my complaint, but I'd be very surprised if they do that. I think they want to screw passengers. We'll see. I'd like to be proved wrong....
 

Zoe

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Think that's bad, try living in Scunthorpe where there is hardly and day return fares ....
Try Swindon, Super Off Peak to Reading (a journey of 30 minutes) is £20 and Off Peak is £24. The fares to London are £40 Super Off Peak and £48 Off Peak. First were able to push up the price of the Off Peak return earlier this year by 20% by introducing a much more restrictive Super Off Peak fare at the same price. In 2006 when the Super Saver fare (About £10 or so cheaper than the Saver at the time) was scrapped it was claimed it was done so to make fares simpler, I'm not convinced by that.

The result of this policy however is that even though trains run from Swindon to Reading and London at turn-up and go frequencies, it's cheaper to go by car if you just want to turn up and get on a train without having to book in advance.
 

DJ737

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G'day there

A much shorter journey but with a fare I have yet to understand is Stansted Airport to Elsenham at UKL 2.20 and you always have to change at Stansted Mountfitchet, however the fare from Stansted Airport to Stansted Mountfitchet is UKL 2.80.

I don't quite understand this.:???:

Cheers
DJ737
Melbourne, Australia

I wish you and Aussie christmas and an icy cold beer:lol:
 

yorkie

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I don't quite understand this.:
I do. They can get more money from airport users! simple ;) fares to/from airports are often at a premium, especially Stanstead.

Hardly any visitors figure out a way round it like you've done. most pay the extra!
 

ashworth

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What's your view on the validity of a ticket to Shireoaks?
I was actually referring to Shirebrook (just north of Mansfield) on the Worksop to Nottingham line and not Shireoaks (near Worksop) on the Sheffield line.

I just find it amazing that a Day Return to York can be as cheap as £14.50 from somewhere so far south. As I said particularly amazing when the cheapest ticket from Mansfield itself, the next station down the line, is nearly £40!
Only problem is I wouldn't really like to leave my car at Shirebrook station!
 
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mumrar

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To answer the Elsenham fare question, they're sometimes priced by the direct distance, even though there's no direct service. An example of this is Bromsgrove fares to any X-city stations south of University. All of the journeys have to be made via University (unless you catch the one a day each direction from Bromsgrove-Barnt Green), but get considerably cheaper the closer you get to Bromsgrove, despite thid increasing the route mileage. Sorry this doesn't fit in with the intended 'all TOCs are evil b@$t@rd$' theme, being as they could charge a lot more.
 

glynn80

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yorkie said:
Elaine "Penalty fare" Holt should hang her head in shame.
yorkie said:
They've had enough time to get rid of them. Also National Express had years in which to think of this but didn't do it. There's no evidence either way to suggest whether it was NX's idea or DOR's idea, but it is DOR who are implementing this, and they must accept the blame. They could so easily have cancelled it but have failed to do so.
The two quotes above are both naive in their approach and very mistaken.

The fares system laid down within the Ticketing and Settlement Agreement details the way in which "fares setting rounds" operate. These rounds have very rigid timetables that must be adhered to, there are only very clearly defined exceptions and if you do not meet any of the exception criteria you must wait until the next fares setting round to make any alterations.

So we are all clear, fares setting rounds have three stages of which I will detail below:

TSA Guide said:
Stage 1 (23 to 9 weeks prior to Fares Implementation Date)
  • Fares System Open for Input
  • Revised TTL (Transport for London) and Travelcard Fares available in FARES System
  • Application Deadline for New Flows and Ticket Types
  • Major NFM Text Changes
  • Deadline for non-standard discounted fares for Quickfare
  • Completion of initial and revised Permanent Fares input
  • Shutdown of FARES System for Mass Updates and Fares for Windows Uploads
  • DfT Fares Regulation check (first run)
  • Deadline to notify Train Company fares to TTL (Transport for London).

Stage 2 (8 to 7 weeks prior to Fares Implementation Date)
  • Deadline for proof checking of NFM text amendments

Stage 3 (6 to 0 weeks prior to Fares Implementation Date)
  • SRA Fares Regulation check (second run).
  • Deadline for SA to notify TTL Transport for London) of last amendments to Train Company fares.
  • Fares File extracts for NFMs.
  • Downloading to TIS Commences.
  • TIS Downloading completed.
  • Revised fares available for sale.
  • Fares Implementation Date

TOCs must notify RSP of your proposals for revised Permanent Fares no less than 9 weeks before the fares implementation date. During Stage 2 of the Fares Setting Round, fares may only be changed to eliminate anomalies and correct manifest errors. Anomalies are described in 3.2.6(ii). Manifest errors are determined by RSP, an example being a Permanent Fare of £48 being shown on the FARES System as £4.80.
So taking the Fares Implementation Date of Saturday 02 January, we can calculate when Stage 1 of the Fares Setting Round ended (nine weeks prior to this date) and therefore the deadline DOR would have had to of worked towards.

Nine weeks prior to Saturday 02 January would have been Friday 30 October (the deadlines always fall on a Friday). Considering DOR didn't take NXEC over until Saturday 14 November, it is pretty obvious these fares were (a) not the brainchild of DOR and (b) were set in stone by the time DOR took office.

So I hope the above confirms for yorkie that there is "evidence to suggest whether it was NX's idea or DOR's idea" (it was NXECs), that there was definitely not "enough time" to reverse NXECs decision and that they could not "so easily have cancelled" the decision (they couldn't have cancelled it in any way shape or form).
 

yorkie

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Oh, come on. If DOR want to differ from that timescale we all know they could easily get away with it! Besides, they've been planning the takeover of the EC franchise for many months!!!! It wasn't exactly a well kept secret was it?!

And don't forget Virgin implementing peak restrictions, which appeared in Avantix Traveller, yet they got such bad publicity they removed the restrictions almost instantly and this was reflected in FRPP.

And then there was Arriva vs First in around 2007. The Any Permitted ticket price reductions by Arriva at the last moment meant that the FGW-only tickets never even got a look in.

So anyone who believes it's all set in stone months in advance is "naive" and "mistaken"!
 

Ferret

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I wonder what CrossCountry guards think when they check tickets and see people paying less to go to Sheffield than to Donny?
An opportunity for an XC only fare between DON-YRK as exists between several points on the EC route...?
 

glynn80

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Oh, come on. If DOR want to differ from that timescale we all know they could easily get away with it!
Erm, no they cannot. The TSA is an ATOC owned document which the DfT have change approval over, the DfT do not have the authority to make changes alone by themselves.
yorkie said:
Besides, they've been planning the takeover of the EC franchise for many months!!!! It wasn't exactly a well kept secret was it?!`
Whether they were planning a takeover or not, until the takeover has taken place DOR can not make any decisions regarding that franchise.

yorkie said:
And don't forget Virgin implementing peak restrictions, which appeared in Avantix Traveller, yet they got such bad publicity they removed the restrictions almost instantly and this was reflected in FRPP.
Not sure what relevance this has to the argument I was portraying, that being DOR didn't have any option available to them to reverse NXEC's decision.

yorkie said:
And then there was Arriva vs First in around 2007. The Any Permitted ticket price reductions by Arriva at the last moment meant that the FGW-only tickets never even got a look in.
Again what relevance does this has to the argument I was portraying?
So anyone who believes it's all set in stone months in advance is "naive" and "mistaken"!
Correct, your cynicism with the TOCs and the DfT in general is blinding you from evidence portrayed directly front of you. I have given you written quotes from industry documents explaining why those statements from yourself were mistaken and naive but you have given nothing like that in return to push for your viewpoint. Do you have anything to back up your assertion that "if DOR want to differ from that timescale we all know they could easily get away with it"?
 

glynn80

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so arriva vs first and the virgin u-turn never happened ?!
I see you have chosen to ignore nearly everything I have written above and chose to pick out exactly the parts I stated was irrelevant to my argument.

I never at any time said the above situations never occurred what I did say was that they had no relevance to the argument I was portraying which was that the DOR had no alternative but to accept the changes NXEC had already signed them up to.

Again I ask, do you have any evidence to back up your assertion that "if DOR want to differ from that timescale we all know they could easily get away with it"?
 

yorkie

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No, you have ignored my entire argument.

We all know the TOCs can get away with differing from the timescales because we've seen it happen!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=11064&highlight=cardiff+swansea+fares

Arriva saw FGWs lower fares and lowered the Any Permitted ones instantly. They announced this on the day the fares changed. They did not adhere to the timescales you posted. Therefore we have proof that the TOCs do not have to adhere to those timescales.
 

glynn80

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No, you have ignored my entire argument.
If you are claiming that you have addressed my arguments, I will ask you directly, can you please explain how DOR is expected to move around fares setting round deadlines, that are set in stone, to suit themselves? You state they could "easily get away with it", care to explain how?

If you don't answer, I will assume you are making statements with no basis.

We all know the TOCs can get away with differing from the timescales because we've seen it happen!
Arriva saw FGWs lower fares and lowered the Any Permitted ones instantly. They announced this on the day the fares changed. They did not adhere to the timescales you posted. Therefore we have proof that the TOCs do not have to adhere to those timescales.
You are getting confused completely by thinking about the ATW vs FGW example. In that circumstance (if you read ATWs news article), ATW introduced a temporary promotional fare (not subject to the deadlines mentioned above) on one specific flow.
 

yorkie

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I don't know or care how they do it, but the TOCs do do it.

ATW lowered all the Any Permitted fares between Swansea and Cardiff. I don't care if they call it a "promotion" but if they introduced ATW only tickets I would agree it is a promotion, but lowering Any Permitted fares that FGW are obliged to accept doesn't count as a promotion in my book!

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=21723&highlight=virgin+peak Virgin introduced peak restrictions and then withdrew them very rapidly. Avantix wasn't updated but FRPP was.

XC did the same thing with their long distance fares SVR being heavily restricted, they then got negative publicity and it was pointed out how easy it was to get round it, so they removed it. Again FRPP was updated instantly.

I don't care what excuses are used. We have seen the evidence with our own eyes. We know the TOCs can change these things at the drop of a hat irrespective of whatever any ATOC/DfT/whatever document says.

Just because some document says something shouldn't happen, doesn't mean it does not happen!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
ATW introduced a temporary promotional fare (not subject to the deadlines mentioned above) on one specific flow.
Swansea-Cardiff pre-January 2007 changes
CDR £9.00

Swansea-Cardiff in 2010
CDR £6.50

Route: Any Permitted. Equally valid on FGW as ATW.

Restriction: B3 (valid after 0930) in both cases.

No promotion. Not temporary. Not operator-specific. Inter-available.

Not subject to deadlines eh? Well then nothing is!

I rest my case!
 

glynn80

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I don't know or care how they do it, but the TOCs do do it.
TOCs do not introduce temporary fares on every flow they own, one TOC introduced a temporary flow on one flow they owned!

Swansea-Cardiff pre-January 2007 changes
CDR £9.00

Swansea-Cardiff in 2010
CDR £6.50

Route: Any Permitted. Equally valid on FGW as ATW.

Restriction: B3 (valid after 0930) in both cases.

No promotion. Not temporary. Not operator-specific. Inter-available.

Not subject to deadlines eh? Well then nothing is!

I rest my case!
They made in PERMANENT in the NEXT fares setting round. :roll:

yorkie said:
Virgin introduced peak restrictions and then withdrew them very rapidly. Avantix wasn't updated but FRPP was.
They withdrew them at the next available opportunity which was the next fares setting round! This was actually even brought up at a Transport Select Committee, where the statement was made by VT's Commercial Director that they would be removed. They were not altered in that fares setting round at all.

yorkie said:
XC did the same thing with their long distance fares SVR being heavily restricted, they then got negative publicity and it was pointed out how easy it was to get round it, so they removed it. Again FRPP was updated instantly.
This was completely different to the VT example. The FRPP was not updated instantly, it had the correct information from the start. What occured was a situation where XC changed their minds before the fares setting round had ended but after the data had been submitted to the TSO for NFM publication (this date is prior to the fares setting round end date). It was not a case of them changing after the fares setting round but merely after the NFM data delivery date.

yorkie said:
I don't care what excuses are used. We have seen the evidence with our own eyes. We know the TOCs can change these things at the drop of a hat irrespective of whatever any ATOC/DfT/whatever document says.
Of course you do not care, because it detracts from your unrelenting cynicism with regard to the TOCs and the DfT. I have explained above that the circumstances which you occurred in the past and have led you to believe that the DOR were in a situation to reverse NXECs decisions, were in fact down to other reasons and not as you believe, the TOCs moving the fares setting round dates.
 
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moonrakerz

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East Coast are blatantly ripping people off. They are defrauding their customers by knowingly, wilfully charging a higher fare than the correct fare charged by Northern for a longer journey. If this is not a criminal act then the law should be changed.
Much as I hate to disagree with such a senior member of this forum, but .............

Just two days ago I went to buy a cauliflower, they were £1.39 in my local greengrocers - they were 39p in Lidl - should there a Law banning that ?

Gosh ! now I remember - there was such a thing called Resale Price Maintenance. In 1964 it was decreed that this "was against the public interest" and (with a few minor exceptions) this was made illegal. Prices fell quite dramatically as a result when manufacturers lost the capability to "fix" prices.
Just imagine if you still HAD to buy your car at the price that nice Mr Ford/Datsun/Honda/Fiat fixed !!!

No thanks .............
 

yorkie

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The equivalent would be another company setting the price of cauliflower at £1.50 thus forcing your local greengrocers to charge £1.50 even if they didn't want to charge that much. They would say "Sorry, we think they should be charged at £1.39 for this quantity, but this other company who we have no connection with, tells us to charge £1.50." They would not allowed to tell you that if you ask for a larger quantity, then a completely different company ask them to charge you only £1.40. So someone behind you asks for twice as much cauliflower and gets charged £1.40. From the same shop. Same person serving. If the person serving you told you to get twice as much they'd be threatened with the sack. Are you honestly telling me you would be happy at such a situation?!!!!
 

will1337

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Try Swindon, Super Off Peak to Reading (a journey of 30 minutes) is £20 and Off Peak is £24. The fares to London are £40 Super Off Peak and £48 Off Peak. First were able to push up the price of the Off Peak return earlier this year by 20% by introducing a much more restrictive Super Off Peak fare at the same price. In 2006 when the Super Saver fare (About £10 or so cheaper than the Saver at the time) was scrapped it was claimed it was done so to make fares simpler, I'm not convinced by that.

The result of this policy however is that even though trains run from Swindon to Reading and London at turn-up and go frequencies, it's cheaper to go by car if you just want to turn up and get on a train without having to book in advance.
I agree with this post, the value of the tickets from Swindon eastbound is poor as there aren't day return tickets as there are westbound to Bristol and Cardiff and to go eastbound is simply unaffordable at peak times. It is criminal how fares have been made more expensive in the name of "simplification." Similar is going to happen in London as a result of Oyster, the cheap Off Peak Day returns are going to disappear.
 

moonrakerz

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The equivalent would be another company setting the price of cauliflower at £1.50 thus forcing your local greengrocers to charge £1.50 even if they didn't want to charge that much. They would say "Sorry, we think they should be charged at £1.39 for this quantity, but this other company who we have no connection with, tells us to charge £1.50." They would not allowed to tell you that if you ask for a larger quantity, then a completely different company ask them to charge you only £1.40. So someone behind you asks for twice as much cauliflower and gets charged £1.40. From the same shop. Same person serving. If the person serving you told you to get twice as much they'd be threatened with the sack. Are you honestly telling me you would be happy at such a situation?!!!!
Sorry - but you have just destroyed your own argument, in fact you have NO argument ! You argue in favour of a position whereby one entity can impose a price/fare on another then, in the next breath, say this should not be allowed !
Why would my greengrocer be forced to charge £1.50 if another greengrocer is doing that ? You are saying that there should be a Law such that some mythical organisation should dictate the price of cauliflowers/train fares/cars/etc throughout the UK ?
I am also very happy that I can get a First Class return from my local station to Waterloo for £22.10 with a bit of forethought as opposed to paying £150.50 on the day ! I don't jump up and down and accuse SWT of "rip-off" and "fraud" - that is the language of someone who doesn't really have a case to argue and just tries to bulldoze their way through using emotive and almost libelous terms ! (Could I suggest you look up the actual definition of these two phrases ?)
 

yorkie

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Sorry - but you have just destroyed your own argument, in fact you have NO argument ! You argue in favour of a position whereby one entity can impose a price/fare on another then, in the next breath, say this should not be allowed !
Where do I say that?
Why would my greengrocer be forced to charge £1.50 if another greengrocer is doing that ? You are saying that there should be a Law such that some mythical organisation should dictate the price of cauliflowers/train fares/cars/etc throughout the UK ?
Quite the opposite. I was saying how it is ridiculous that a company sets the price that another company must charge between a pair of stations, yet the price on that same company's train to the next station is lower. If you are arguing against me, and using greengrocer analogies, then are you not the one in favour of these prices being dictated?

If you are not in favour of the prices being dictated in that way, why are you arguing against me?!
I am also very happy that I can get a First Class return from my local station to Waterloo for £22.10 with a bit of forethought as opposed to paying £150.50 on the day ! I don't jump up and down and accuse SWT of "rip-off" and "fraud" - that is the language of someone who doesn't really have a case to argue and just tries to bulldoze their way through using emotive and almost libelous terms ! (Could I suggest you look up the actual definition of these two phrases ?)
I see you've avoided the question about your greengrocer analogy. As for it being a "ripoff", to use the greengrocer analogy, surely you would feel ripped off if the scenario I described whereby a customer behind you in the queue was charged less for twice the quantity? If not, why not? Please answer this time as I'd like to know.

Ripoff - A ripoff (or rip-off) is a bad deal. Usually it refers to an incident in which a person pays too much for something." - I think that easily qualifies!

As for fraud, that is harder because there are many different types of fraud. The TOCs like to use that term, which is why I am using it to describe what they do. If a customer underpays for their journey, the TOCs like to say they are 'defrauding' the TOC. It should, logically, work the other way round.
 

mumrar

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Oh I love it how any threads fare related quickly descend into farce. This has been quite a quick deteriation so far, and has resulted in the usual cock-fighting between two protagonists - how come yorkie is one of these two on so many occassions? Hmmm, and now we're on to greengrocers, what a tangential angle of attack. I fully expect one or both of said cock-fighters to round on me for being off topic, but seriously I think we need to organise some boxing matches!
 

Ben

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To be fair Yorkies got a point here, using cauliflower just makes makes it a tangible comparison...
 

yorkie

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It was not my idea to use cauliflower as a comparison. However I am happy for comparisons to be used - why not? But if comparisons are going to be used, then they need to take into account the way railway ticketing works, which is quite bizarre and probably unique!

If the cauliflower comparison is a "farce" that's only because railway ticketing is a farce. It's only when you apply it to something else that it becomes apparent just how much of a farce it is. Barry Doe once used a comparison of buying baked beans at a supermarket. It's due to the botched way the railways were privatised. I disagree with this privatisation strongly and it is clear that anomalies are going to get worse over time if the status quo remains.

I do not see any "cock fighting" (whatever that means).
 
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