ITSO - What is it? How will it work?

[Zoe]

As for pricing set by distance, that's still possible - but with a premium levied for certain services (such as Intercity services). Trains could have readers (as well as held by staff) and penalty fares or other surcharges could exist if you boarded such a premium service. In Amsterdam, you have a premium for the faster trains and I'm sure that works with their smartcards.

I would have thought you'd need an additional premium for peak intercity services though, if the premium is the same for all intercity services then that won't discourage people from using busy trains.

 

[Greenback]

All of these ideas are limited only by imagination as any system could do any of that - but whether it will is another matter, but will come down to the people who decide on what to implement.

I think you have hit the nail on the head there as far as my concerns go! Yes, I cna see that there is a wonderful world of possibility that smartcard technology would allow us to enter, but I fear that it is the human factor that will create a similar sort of mess to what we have now.

There are far too many interested parties involved (politicians, software comapnies, TOC's, local authorities) to alleviate the danger that a national smartcard would be anything other than a horse designed by a committee! My worries are compounded by the feeling that the main reason for bringing smartcards in is to save money by cutting jobs, rather than as a genuine attempt to make access to public transport simpler and more attractive, which is what should be the driving force, in my humble opinion.

 

[jon0844]

Zoe, surely peak/off-peak would be covered by the time you touch in or out, or perhaps by touching in on that particular train.

Your same smartcard may also be your seat reservation, which might also activate the seat-back screen (e.g. if you've got a Velo TV subscription loaded on the card too) and you may even be able to scan the same system (if rolled out to more intercity trains) to mark your seat as 'in use' if you pop to the toilet, bar, or request and purchase beverages to be brought to your seat.

I'm getting carried away now, but a small bit of plastic could do so much and offer many other commercial benefits if someone creative gets involved with the development and roll-out.

There are far too many interested parties involved (politicians, software comapnies, TOC's, local authorities) to alleviate the danger that a national smartcard would be anything other than a horse designed by a committee! My worries are compounded by the feeling that the main reason for bringing smartcards in is to save money by cutting jobs, rather than as a genuine attempt to make access to public transport simpler and more attractive, which is what should be the driving force, in my humble opinion.

If the railway remains privately run, I'd expect a lot of clever ideas to be implemented that offer loyalty rewards, volume discounts (by tracking users, by name or anonymously) and the ability to encourage passengers to travel at quieter times, by offering deals if you travel at those times. You might offer discounts for going against the flow (some seasons did offer this, but seem to be gradually disappearing) and so on.

it would be in the interest of the TOC to do all of that, as they'll have a better way to secure revenue and usage than the current system that splits revenue. For once, you may actually be able to divide the revenue exactly, if users touch in/out on the trains too. If they have an incentive to do so, like getting points, they'll do it. No more tickets with 'NOT XXX' and the risk of a PF. If you opt to take another train, the system will calculate everything for you, so that TOC now gets a slice of the revenue.

I could come up with ideas forever, and then contradict myself as I think of something else, so perhaps I should stop now and just leave it by saying I think smartcard ticketing is the future and is inevitable. Like you, I hope it gets done right. I also hope smartcards are easily available, with no up-front deposit, so everyone can get one on their first journey, then register it to qualify for the various benefits.

I just want ATOC to come out and say that it fully supports the idea, and to say how it plans to do it - and when. It would also be good to see some TOCs coming up with ideas on what they think they could do.

 

[Zoe]

Zoe, surely peak/off-peak would be covered by the time you touch in or out, or perhaps by touching in on that particular train.

Yes, what I'm saying is that I doubt there will be a fixed fare based on distance regardless of the time ot trains you travel on.

 

[FenMan]

As for pricing set by distance, that's still possible - but with a premium levied for certain services (such as Intercity services). Trains could have readers (as well as held by staff) and penalty fares or other surcharges could exist if you boarded such a premium service. In Amsterdam, you have a premium for the faster trains and I'm sure that works with their smartcards.

A mileage system would penalise passengers that need to take dog-leg routes to get to their destinations.

5 different permitted routes are available from my home station, Blackwater, to either Waterloo or Paddington (which, by road, are 36 and 33 miles away). A change is required for all journey options.

Route-restricted and Any Permitted off-peak day return fares are available:-

The route-restricted ticket (currently £16) covers 2 routes:-
Via Guildford 43 miles (1h00m)
Via Wokingham 43 miles (1h32m)

The Any Permitted (£20) covers 3 more routes:-
Via Farnborough North/Farnborough Main 36 miles (1h09m)*
Via North Camp/Ash Vale 37 miles (1h01m)*
Via Reading 49 miles (50m)

*Significant walk between stations when changing trains.

I could also start my journey at Farnborough Main, 3 miles away, where the mileage is 33 and the current off peak day return is £16.20 (= 24.5p/mile).

When calculating the fares from Blackwater at 24.5p/mile the ticket prices would vary from £17.60 to £24.00, so I would end up paying between 9% and 48% more than the fare from Farnborough Main.

That would add up very quickly!

 

[Greenback]

If the railway remains privately run, I'd expect a lot of clever ideas to be implemented that offer loyalty rewards, volume discounts (by tracking users, by name or anonymously) and the ability to encourage passengers to travel at quieter times, by offering deals if you travel at those times. You might offer discounts for going against the flow (some seasons did offer this, but seem to be gradually disappearing) and so on.

it would be in the interest of the TOC to do all of that, as they'll have a better way to secure revenue and usage than the current system that splits revenue. For once, you may actually be able to divide the revenue exactly, if users touch in/out on the trains too. If they have an incentive to do so, like getting points, they'll do it. No more tickets with 'NOT XXX' and the risk of a PF. If you opt to take another train, the system will calculate everything for you, so that TOC now gets a slice of the revenue.

I'm not saying you are wrong, but I remember being told that it would be in the TOC interests to retain the Inter City branding!

I just want ATOC to come out and say that it fully supports the idea, and to say how it plans to do it - and when. It would also be good to see some TOCs coming up with ideas on what they think they could do.

Yes, it would be good to see some concrete proposals rather than the usual government sound bites. Perhaps then some or all of my worries might be put to rest! But history and the resulting cynicism I have developed makes me think that what we get will not be as good as it could, and should be. Until I see some evidence to the contrary, I will probably continue to be a bit of wet blanket when it comes to smartcards!

 

[Zoe]

I'm not saying you are wrong, but I remember being told that it would be in the TOC interests to retain the Inter City branding!

Great Western Trains actually did.

 

[jon0844]

I'd love to see standard Intercity branding (and perhaps even the same level of service on such trains) even if run by different operators.

But then I also think the railway should be run more like London buses, doing away with branding of individual trains. If we moved to that type of operation, it would make it even easier to change the ticketing system.

And, Zoe, I believe you can have a pricing system that works by distance and still has a different rate for peak, off-peak, half-peak or whatever.

If you have next generation trains that can monitor passenger numbers (as Siemens has demonstrated) and show seat reservations in real-time to people who haven't even boarded, you could even get 'last minute' deals offered via your smartphone that encourages you to travel a bit earlier/later to get a better deal, and the chance of a seat. I am of course now assuming that besides introducing smartcards, we'd also have a totally connected system with all trains, staff and passengers able to access live data.

I can't imagine that not happening, with some sort of fallback system for when your connection goes down.

Smartcards could still cope with advance tickets too, offering huge discounts and with strict conditions, but I'd see an industry moving more towards giving savings to those who travel frequently. Even the airline industry could do this, as they also introduce new technology (and have already done so in some markets).

 

[radamfi]

In Amsterdam, you have a premium for the faster trains and I'm sure that works with their smartcards.

I presume you are talking about the supplements for the Fyra train that uses the high speed line between Schiphol, Rotterdam and Breda and the ICE train from Amsterdam to Arnhem. Previously you had to buy a separate paper ticket for the Fyra supplement but now that can be loaded onto the smartcard at a ticket machine. The ICE train allows use of the OV-Chipkaart without supplement.

By visiting a ticket machine, you can change whether you want to be travel 1st or 2nd class.

 

[jon0844]

Yes.

1st/2nd class is another thing ITSO cards could help with - easy upgrading to first class, as well as the ability to offer free upgrades as loyalty rewards.

 

[Zoe]

And, Zoe, I believe you can have a pricing system that works by distance and still has a different rate for peak, off-peak, half-peak or whatever.

I'm not saying you can't but the suggestion was one price based on distance regarldess of the time or train you use.

 

[starrymarkb]

I'd see an industry moving more towards giving savings to those who travel frequently. Even the airline industry could do this, as they also introduce new technology (and have already done so in some markets).

I believe they already do though their frequent flyer schemes. (ie BA Executive Club, AF/KLM Flying Blue) where points earned can be spent on flights/upgrades and after so many flights you gain lounge access and priority when it comes to upgrades. With Alliances you can also earn/receive benefits on other airlines within the alliance)

 

[PhilipW]

Travelling up to London, I already have 3 Day Return options with SWT - Peak, Off Peak and Super Off Peak with yesterday's DfT statement raising the possibility of a 4th (Super Peak).

ITSO may give the technical possibility of having a different fare for each train (or even varying the fare depending on how many plan to use it), but that does not mean to say it is good. As a customer I want to know in advance how much I am going to pay and I don't want to prebook and preplan each train I go on. Hampshire to London is a walk-on service.

Technology is there for the benefit of the customer. Customers should not be there just for the benefit of technology.

 

[John55]

Travelling up to London, I already have 3 Day Return options with SWT - Peak, Off Peak and Super Off Peak with yesterday's DfT statement raising the possibility of a 4th (Super Peak).

ITSO may give the technical possibility of having a different fare for each train (or even varying the fare depending on how many plan to use it), but that does not mean to say it is good. As a customer I want to know in advance how much I am going to pay and I don't want to prebook and preplan each train I go on. Hampshire to London is a walk-on service.

Technology is there for the benefit of the customer. Customers should not be there just for the benefit of technology.

If you don't like the ITSO option when it comes out then don't use it. There is no suggestion that it will be compulsory.

I find having an Oyster is convenient so i use it. I could choose not to if I so wish and sometimes I don't. It is my choice.

 

[Zoe]

If you don't like the ITSO option when it comes out then don't use it. There is no suggestion that it will be compulsory.

I find having an Oyster is convenient so i use it. I could choose not to if I so wish and sometimes I don't. It is my choice.

It is your choice right now but in the future paper tickets could be withdrawn.

 

[cuccir]

Does the report actually speak of ITSO replacing paper tickets? A customer oriented approach would introduce smart-ticketing as a complimentary way of buying tickets, retaining paper tickets for people whose needs are suited by the paper form.

We've already seen a variety of ways in which smart-cards could and couldn't work on this thread!

I think they're inevitable, and a good thing, for season tickets/rovers/rangers, and as an option for advance tickets and point-to-point tickets.

What you can probably bet on is that it'll be a phased introduction when first introduced it will be for season tickets only (direct replacement for paper tickets) and then probably for loading single journey point-to-point tickets (either purchased at the station, TVM or online - again a direct replacement for paper tickets).

And after then, that's the time you might see new/innovative fare structures.

So lots of questions to be answered, but it will develop in stages. (Just look how Oyster has developed over the past few years.) So it's far too early to say "it'll never work".

This. I already prefer to order advance tickets to be posted to me, removing any worry of how long it will take to use the station - the length of time is how long it takes for me to walk from entrance to platform! Smart ticketing will make this easier.

 

[Zoe]

Does the report actually speak of ITSO replacing paper tickets? A customer oriented approach would introduce smart-ticketing as a complimentary way of buying tickets, retaining paper tickets for people whose needs are suited by the paper form.

It may not be the intention right now but in the future the number of people wanting to use paper tickets may no longer justify retaining the system. You don't get pension books these days for example even though I know of people that would have preferred to still use them rather than a card.

 

[PhilipW]

I find having an Oyster is convenient so i use it. I could choose not to if I so wish and sometimes I don't. It is my choice.

One of the main reasons that Oyster is so popular is that it makes the fares a lot cheaper - £1.80 for a Tube single instead of £4. As an occasional Tube user I have a PAYG card, partly for convenience and partly for price.

It seems clear that the DfT wants ITSO to be just as popular as Oyster. To be that, it will have to have some compelling selling point.

 

[All Line Rover]

One of the main reasons that Oyster is so popular is that it makes the fares a lot cheaper - £1.80 for a Tube single instead of £4. As an occasional Tube user I have a PAYG card, partly for convenience and partly for price.

It seems clear that the DfT wants ITSO to be just as popular as Oyster. To be that, it will have to have some compelling selling point.

When Oyster was introduced, PAYG fares were set at the same level as cash fares, and cash fares were hiked dramatically. Please don't tell me the DfT will do that with ITSO too! :roll:

 

[Zoe]

When Oyster was introduced, PAYG fares were set at the same level as cash fares

Yes, the Outer London bus cash fare was hiked from 70p to £2 over three years. That said it has helped quite a bit with loading times.

 

[radamfi]

The Dutch haven't so far made train fares cheaper by OV-Chipkaart compared to paper tickets. They did accommodate the smartcard implementation by abolishing return fares. They were planning to scrap ticket sales from ticket machines and ticket offices at the end of this year. I'm not sure if that is still the case. For buses and local transport, OV-Chipkaart is almost mandatory. In some cases you can buy a ticket from the driver but at huge cost, and often with interchange not allowed.

However some outlying regions of the Netherlands have actually introduced their own paper tickets for bus travel which undercut the OV-Chipkaart.

 

[WatcherZero]

One of the main reasons that Oyster is so popular is that it makes the fares a lot cheaper - £1.80 for a Tube single instead of £4. As an occasional Tube user I have a PAYG card, partly for convenience and partly for price.

It seems clear that the DfT wants ITSO to be just as popular as Oyster. To be that, it will have to have some compelling selling point.

Theres an incentive in place, however one of Oysters main problems is its very expensive to run. 30% of revenue from ticket sales on buses/rail goes to maintain the Oyster network meaning less available for investment and service quality. If you used a normal debit/credit card its just 5%.

 

[transmanche]

Yes, the Outer London bus cash fare was hiked from 70p to £2 over three years.

Although the outer London off-peak cash fare was 70p about 22 years ago! (It went up, then it went down - and then it went up again.)

Theres an incentive in place, however one of Oysters main problems is its very expensive to run. 30% of revenue from ticket sales on buses/rail goes to maintain the Oyster network meaning less available for investment and service quality. If you used a normal debit/credit card its just 5%.

2-5% would represent the charge levied by the bank ("the merchant acquirer") for using a credit card. For debit cards it's usually a fixed fee. However, that's only the cost of the money transfer - you'd still need to pay for the massive IT infrastructure needed to actually operate Oyster.

 

[Zoe]

Although the outer London off-peak cash fare was 70p about 22 years ago! (It went up, then it went down - and then it went up again.)

I remember when it was 80p but there was a 60p "short hop" fare available. It was then changed to just a 70p fare. I don't think there was a peak fare at this time though. I certainly remember using the bus and was only ever charged 80p (later 70) even at peak times.

 

[tripleseis]

Still, a flat fare and some pretty long bus routes represent good value for money travelwise (for distnace at least). I just wish TfL would introduce a transfer system where I tap in one bus and then that journey is valid for say 90 minutes with as many bus changes as I wish. I think the Green Party proposed this within their 2008 Mayoral Election Manifesto. Smartcard technology could easily allow this.

 

[brianthegiant]

The only way, I guess, is for there to be some kind of screen with the reader that displays all the tickets on your card, and you select which one you're using.

haven't used it because I dont use a seasons ticket but from memory the ITSO readers in EMT area do have at least one button and a dot matrix LCD screen

 

[bailey65]

Get very worried when the words government and computer system appear in the same sentence they have a poor track record just look at the failed nhs computer system and the billions that cost.

 

[transmanche]

Get very worried when the words government and computer system appear in the same sentence they have a poor track record just look at the failed nhs computer system and the billions that cost.

Chalk and cheese. ITSO is not a single 'big computer', but a set of standards to be used by both public and private sector organisations.

DfT is just one of the ITSO partners - and thus promoting its use.

 

[Wyvern]

Eas Midlands trains appear to have got their smartcard up and running:

http://www.eastmidlandstrains.co.uk/Tickets/Pages/Smartcards.aspx


Map here:

 

[jon0844]

Ooh - cool. Have applied for one right now!

From their FAQs;

What happens if I leave my Smartcard at home?
You will have to purchase a full-fare paper ticket for your journey.

Retain this ticket so you can obtain a refund from the ticket office used to purchase it. If you have no funds to purchase a ticket, an unpaid fares notice may be issued (in the same way as a paper season ticket).

What happens if I lose my Smartcard?
If your Smartcard is lost or stolen, call 0845 810 10 10 for a replacement. Your old card will then be cancelled so no one else can use it.

Can someone else use my Smartcard?
The Smartcard is not transferable so should not be given to any other person for their use. For families and businesses, additional cards can be registered to one account holder but issued to each user.

Can I use my Smartcard on London Underground?
From late 2012/early 2013, East Midlands Trains Smartcards can be used on the London Underground. Until then, underground tickets need to be purchased separately.

Can I transfer my current season ticket to a Smartcard?
Season tickets cannot be transferred to Smartcards, this can only be done when you renew.

What tickets can be loaded onto my Smartcard?
Monthly Season, Monthly Plus Season, Annual Season and Weekly Season tickets are available to purchase via phone on 0845 810 10 10. The following tickets; Monthly Season, Weekly Season, First/Standard Anytime, First/Standard Off Peak and First/Standard Super Off Peak are also available to purchase via our Ticket Vending Machines at the station.

Seems that this will finally help the people who worry about losing their season ticket more than once in any given year.

It's also interesting that they'll operate within London - so the readers are obviously being updated for ITSO compliant cards. I hope this means the DfT will soon resume its plan to roll out smartcards on other TOCs, like FCC (which was suspended last year).

Finally, I am unsure why they can't allow the transfer of a paper season to a smartcard. I am sure they CAN do it but have chosen not to, perhaps because of the admin required. This is a shame as the regular commuters may now have to wait until January 2013 to get to use one - and it will obviously speed up entry/exit to stations if given out sooner.