ITV Trouble on the tracks

[voyagerdude220]

This whole last train from Euston thing was silly, because the last train from Euston has no connections and goes through to Wolverhampton anyway.

Just like when the voice over person said that passengers could become stranded at Birmingham New Street, if they miss connections onto the last services of the day.

As long as they've got tickets for their journey, the TOC(s) involved will have to make alternative travel arrangements to get affected passengers to their destination.

 

[alistairlees]

It makes for more dramatic tv though... these people are not intending to make a factual and balanced tv programme. They have an angle that they are intent on following. Otherwise it would never be commissioned.

 

[LAX54]

Platform 10 at Birmingham New Street. It really isn't clear who gave the instruction other than a 'dispatcher' The Driver was asked to move down the platform and the subsequently went past a Mid Platform signal and run through a set of points. The Driver was 'cleared of wrongdoing' according to the Narrator.

Which of course could well be wrong, the only person who could tell him to pass the signal would be the Signalman, Platform Staff have no authority, and of course ...'always check the points before going over them' !

 

[falcon]

On the show tonight (19th march)
there was an incident where a XC train had passed a Red signal and caused damage to a set of points.
It was later stated the driver had been given an incorrect instruction by a dispatcher to pass the signal.

Is it correct that a dispatcher can give an instruction to a driver to pass a signal at danger?

No. the driver should not pass a red signal unless told by the signalman.

The dispatcher is supposed to check the signal is OFF (clear) and signal to the guard.

Who is then supposed to check the signal is OFF (clear).

Who then tell the driver the train is safe to proceed if the signal is off(clear)

The driver then checks the signal is OFF (clear) and proceeds if it is.

First... the dispatcher is wrong for disptching against a safe aspect.

Then if the guard confirms proceed against that same unsafe aspect he is wrong.

Then if the driver proceeds against an unsafe aspect he is wrong.

The program did not report the incident correctly.

 

[voyagerdude220]

It makes for more dramatic tv though... these people are not intending to make a factual and balanced tv programme. They have an angle that they are intent on following. Otherwise it would never be commissioned.

Good point.

 

[Aictos]

The other point as well is the dispatcher trainer told the trainee that they need to check that the lights are correct at both ends of the train, had to be told to check the rear of the train was showing the correct lights but despite that didn't check the front of the train.
Just a small point but if you're reminded during training then you make sure you check both ends.

It's still interesting on how everything works in the background though.

 

[philthetube]

Just like when the voice over person said that passengers could become stranded at Birmingham New Street, if they miss connections onto the last services of the day.

As long as they've got tickets for their journey, the TOC(s) involved will have to make alternative travel arrangements to get affected passengers to their destination.

To be fair a member of station staff did make that point though.

 

[43066]

No. the driver should not pass a red signal unless told by the signalman.

The dispatcher is supposed to check the signal is OFF (clear) and signal to the guard.

Who is then supposed to check the signal is OFF (clear).

Who then tell the driver the train is safe to proceed if the signal is off(clear)

The driver then checks the signal is OFF (clear) and proceeds if it is.

First... the dispatcher is wrong for disptching against a safe aspect.

Then if the guard confirms proceed against that same unsafe aspect he is wrong.

Then if the driver proceeds against an unsafe aspect he is wrong.

The program did not report the incident correctly.

And the driver will get into the most trouble of all of them. It’s no good blaming the guard or dispatcher for a SPAD - even though they’re at fault for dispatching against a red.

 

[43066]

The other point as well is the dispatcher trainer told the trainee that they need to check that the lights are correct at both ends of the train, had to be told to check the rear of the train was showing the correct lights but despite that didn't check the front of the train.
Just a small point but if you're reminded during training then you make sure you check both ends.

It's still interesting on how everything works in the background though.

I’ve certainly never known dispatchers to be responsible for checking lights.

 

[Aictos]

I’ve certainly never known dispatchers to be responsible for checking lights.

It depends on TOC, I know one TOC that dispatchers were meant to check the lights and that they had a driver but in reality the drivers for that TOC used to check the lights themselves.

 

[ComUtoR]

I’ve certainly never known dispatchers to be responsible for checking lights.

At my TOC they are required to check the reds are up and they watch the train until the back clears the platform.

 

[the sniper]

Platform 10 at Birmingham New Street. It really isn't clear who gave the instruction other than a 'dispatcher' The Driver was asked to move down the platform and the subsequently went past a Mid Platform signal and run through a set of points. The Driver was 'cleared of wrongdoing' according to the Narrator.

I haven't seen the episode and have no knowledge of this specific incident, but at New Street it has been known for Dispatchers to stand beyond a Red mid platform Signal and give a hand signal, usually slow down initially, at the far end of the platform, indicating where they want the train to stop (so another train can fit ahead or behind, or so it can start within sight of the signal/RA), thinking the middle signal has been cleared or forgetting it exists. The Driver sees them, they either get distracted and SPAD the middle signal, or stop correctly none too impressed with the Dispatcher...

 

[Aictos]

At my TOC they are required to check the reds are up and they watch the train until the back clears the platform.

Surely EVERY dispatcher should be observing the train from when it enters the platform to when its fully out of the platform for though stations? I know some TOCs don't think it applies to them though.

 

[ComUtoR]

I don't dispatch trains so I can't speak for them. I know whats in my TOCs dispatch plan that's all.

 

[43066]

I haven't seen the episode and have no knowledge of this specific incident, but at New Street it has been known for Dispatchers to stand beyond a Red mid platform Signal and give a hand signal, usually slow down initially, at the far end of the platform, indicating where they want the train to stop (so another train can fit ahead or behind, or so it can start within sight of the signal/RA), thinking the middle signal has been cleared or forgetting it exists. The Driver sees them, they either get distracted and SPAD the middle signal, or stop correctly none too impressed with the Dispatcher...

Mid platform signals are an absolutely terrible idea and cause nothing but trouble in all locations where they are found.

Drivers approaching London Bridge, for example, (at least the sensible ones) won’t enter the platform on less than two yellows.

 

[43066]

I don't dispatch trains so I can't speak for them. I know whats in my TOCs dispatch plan that's all.

Oh yes you do. 100 times or so per shift .

 

[PudseyBearHST]

Surely EVERY dispatcher should be observing the train from when it enters the platform to when its fully out of the platform for though stations?

Yes, it is a rulebook instruction as per module SS1, station duties and train dispatch. I don’t think it is a rulebook instruction to check the lights as such but if you’re watching the train arriving and leaving, you should notice if there is anything untoward including lights or lack of lights. Although, it may be a local instruction for certain companies where at terminus stations, they are required to walk to the back of the train and check tail lights for example.

Unless Im missing the obvious here, why shouldn't the driver get the blame? Wouldn't they know not to take an instruction like that from a dispatcher?

No, I agree with you. I guess the word ‘unfortunate’ that I used may have given a different impression. I meant that it’s frustrating that dispatchers occasionally mislead drivers. I’m sure they don’t mean it deliberately but it can have devastating consequences for the driver. They have different priorities such as getting train out on time and so they will try to rush the driver. It’s a typical scenario you get on a Situational Judgement Test. Your train arrives late and a dispatcher/manager tries to rush you, what do you do? A) Skip cab checks B) Do all cab checks etc.... I’m slightly disgressing here but in this scenario, if the dispatcher said that the signaller has given permission to pass the signal at danger, don’t feel rushed and contact the signaller yourself.

To be honest, I think the scenario the sniper described sounds more like what probably happened that the driver got distracted and didn’t see the intermediate signal rather than the driver taking the instruction from the dispatcher.

 

[philthetube]

When I saw this my thoughts were that there could be some local instruction which handed the responsibility over to either the dispatcher or signaller, maybe concerning sighting issues, I can thin of at least one site on the Underground where signallers have not to clear to a certain signal because of sighting and if they do and the driver hits that signal they are not blamed for it.

 

[TiedUpInNotts]

There are local instructions at New Street which some people may not be aware of. Of course the local instructions do not extend to dispatchers authorising trains to pass signals at danger!

 

[dggar]

I assume there has been an investigation into this incident.
Has there been a published report that is in the the public domain?

 

[Dieseldriver]

I assume there has been an investigation into this incident.
Has there been a published report that is in the the public domain?

As with all SPADs and other incidents, there will have been a thorough investigation. However, the findings would not be made public unless the RAIB were investigating.

 

[satters]

At Birmingham (new street) we have the unusual situation that the platform signals do not have Signal Post Telephones ( /// ) the platform telephones ( X ) are not suitable for authorising drivers to pass signals at danger, or the current incarnation of “rule 55” other procedures have to be used

 

[Stampy]

Just a thought...

Looking at that "suicide" - couldn't they have diverted trains from New Street to Wolverhampton via either Soho/Hampstead or Aston then via Bescot and vice versa.

Looked like the "incident" was near Smethwich Rolfe Street.

 

[satters]

not all drivers sign the old road

 

[Class 170101]

not all drivers sign the old road

I am surprised that isn't mandatory. Bit like East Coast Drivers all have to sign the Hertford Loop now.

 

[satters]

it has caused proplems in the past, I've been on the operating floor when the signalman has given the soho road route when the stour is blocked, and the driver has come on the phone saying i dont know the road, and thats the job stopped !

 

[Andyh82]

West Midlands Railway are getting a right kicking in tonight’s episode!

 

[Robertj21a]

Tonight's programme shows WMT in a very poor light.

 

[C J Snarzell]

I used to, and still avoid, the documentary shows about the police service as I used to cringe at some of the stuff I saw on TV when I was a serving cop.

I think some fly-on-the-wall programmes are beefed up to make it an attractive show to a target audience but some of what goes on in front of the camera may differ from what actually goes on for real.

For example, staff will go that extra mile to be courteous to the problem passenger in front of the camera because of rail bosses will review the programme for publicity purposes.

Overall I thought the programme came across quite well.

CJ

 

[Robertj21a]

I used to, and still avoid, the documentary shows about the police service as I used to cringe at some of the stuff I saw on TV when I was a serving cop.

I think some fly-on-the-wall programmes are beefed up to make it an attractive show to a target audience but some of what goes on in front of the camera may differ from what actually goes on for real.

For example, staff will go that extra mile to be courteous to the problem passenger in front of the camera because of rail bosses will review the programme for publicity purposes.

Overall I thought the programme came across quite well.

CJ

Well it's still on at present so I'm not sure what you are watching.