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ITV Trouble on the tracks

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Minilad

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Going back to the "SPAD" episode. There wasn't actually a SPAD at all. The points on 10B were run through but no signal was passed at danger. The platform staff instructed the driver to draw down the platform which is permissible at New Street. The driver drew down but unfortunately ran through the points. Not sure why the programme thought it necessary to suggest a SPAD had taken place.
 
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Dieseldriver

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Minilad said:
Going back to the "SPAD" episode. There wasn't actually a SPAD at all. The points on 10B were run through but no signal was passed at danger. The platform staff instructed the driver to draw down the platform which is permissible at New Street. The driver drew down but unfortunately ran through the points. Not sure why the programme thought it necessary to suggest a SPAD had taken place.
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I'm confused. How did the train run through the points if an unauthorised move didn't take place??
 
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Domeyhead

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WHile the programme is of operational interest to those in or close to the rail industry it is a very poor piece of PR for rail travel generally. It gives the impression to anybody travelling from/to/via Euston and especially Birmingham New Street that their journey is likely to be unpleasant and chaotic with a high probability of overcrowding. delay and cancellation followed by a problematic Rail Replacement service that would not be out of place in Mumbai. Any senior TOC manager (especially but not exclusively WMT) would wish this programme did not exist because it rubbishes their product, the only "upside" being the cheerfulness of stressed staff under pressure. That is no consolation. As for Network Rail it suggests that thei modus operandi is just to rush and patch up emergencies with no forwarning, adding to the impression of a dysfunctional network. Is this what we want to encourage people to travel by train? An own goal by the rail industry.
 
bussnapperwm

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The chap in London with the ticket getting binned seemed really fishy (I should know... I deal with some chancers in my job)

The situation with the bus replacement seemed shambolic. Why ARR didn't organise it so some buses would standby at Birmingham (maybe ask NX if they'll let a few buses stable at their Liverpool Street depot or use the coach park near the Middle Ring Road, 5 minutes away) I'll never know.

The editing seemed as though it was trying to fit an agenda of "unreliable railway" and wasn't a patch on Channel 5's Paddington series (or even the East Coast documentary!).

That's 3 hours of my life I'll never get back.
 
BenW390Fan

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bussnapperwm said:
The chap in London with the ticket getting binned seemed really fishy (I should know... I deal with some chancers in my job)

The situation with the bus replacement seemed shambolic. Why ARR didn't organise it so some buses would standby at Birmingham (maybe ask NX if they'll let a few buses stable at their Liverpool Street depot or use the coach park near the Middle Ring Road, 5 minutes away) I'll never know.

The editing seemed as though it was trying to fit an agenda of "unreliable railway" and wasn't a patch on Channel 5's Paddington series (or even the East Coast documentary!).

That's 3 hours of my life I'll never get back.
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They have to make it seem "unreliable" to give it a bit of drama and make it seem relatable
 
the sniper

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Domeyhead said:
WHile the programme is of operational interest to those in or close to the rail industry it is a very poor piece of PR for rail travel generally.
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I agree, it made various aspects look bad, but I felt the portrayal was largely accurate. I thought they actually underplayed how consistently chaotic New Street was almost every day for MONTHS last year, as they couldn't really get into the details of how badly the timetable worked on a daily basis. Pulling back the curtain on how 'revenue protection' has to be handled by TMs was also most unfortunate, if people were paying attention...
 
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philthetube

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Would there be a requirement for the driver to check the points were correctly set before moving.
 
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Dieseldriver

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Minilad said:
The move took place. The platform staff wrongly authorised the driver to move, which he did, subsequently running through the points
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I still don't understand. If the Drivers last signal was a proceed aspect, why did they run through a set of points?
 
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Robertj21a

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Domeyhead said:
WHile the programme is of operational interest to those in or close to the rail industry it is a very poor piece of PR for rail travel generally. It gives the impression to anybody travelling from/to/via Euston and especially Birmingham New Street that their journey is likely to be unpleasant and chaotic with a high probability of overcrowding. delay and cancellation followed by a problematic Rail Replacement service that would not be out of place in Mumbai. Any senior TOC manager (especially but not exclusively WMT) would wish this programme did not exist because it rubbishes their product, the only "upside" being the cheerfulness of stressed staff under pressure. That is no consolation. As for Network Rail it suggests that thei modus operandi is just to rush and patch up emergencies with no forwarning, adding to the impression of a dysfunctional network. Is this what we want to encourage people to travel by train? An own goal by the rail industry.
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Unfortunately, to many, the impression it gives is actually quite accurate. To the ordinary train traveller there is, all too often, chaos, overcrowding, delays, poor communication and disjointed thinking. It's no point in trying to convince passengers that it's likely to be any different when it occurs with such regularity.
 
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Sanatogen

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Dieseldriver said:
I still don't understand. If the Drivers last signal was a proceed aspect, why did they run through a set of points?
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struggling to get my head round it too, what stops potential conflicts if there is no signal protecting the points?
 
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edwin_m

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There is a rule that once a train has stopped in a platform it can't be moved towards the platform starter unless it shows a proceed aspect or the signaler gives permission. This is in case another train has been signaled in to the empty part of the platform. Is it that a similar rule here, with the point being freed after a timer to confirm any train in the platform has come to a stand?
 
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Minilad

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The incident took place on platform 10 towards the A end. There is a signal at the mid point of the platform which protects the set of points that brings trains out of the number three sidings and then a signal just after the points for departing trains. The train in question was at a stand in between the two signals and the platform staff instructed the driver to move the train down to the signal. This is perfectly within the rules at New Street where instructions can be given by platform staff after consulting the signaller. The train was then moved towards the signal and subsequently ran trough the points at a slow speed stopping before the signal was reached. The platform staff hadn't checked with the signaller first to instruct the move. The driver should have checked the points but it is pretty dark down there and the signal is only a little further along the platform so was concentrating on that. Hopefully that clears up any confusion about the incident.
 
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dggar

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Sorry, but I'm still confused by this explanation from Minilad. I live in Manchester and very rarely travel through New Street.
Is the A end towards Coventry or towards Wolverhampton?
Are you saying that the train (Drivers Cab) had stopped initially beyond the signal which protects the points and was then called forward by the platform staff to the departure signal?
Is there a diagram available to show the layout?
 
bussnapperwm

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dggar said:
Sorry, but I'm still confused by this explanation from Minilad. I live in Manchester and very rarely travel through New Street.
Is the A end towards Coventry or towards Wolverhampton?
Are you saying that the train (Drivers Cab) had stopped initially beyond the signal which protects the points and was then called forward by the platform staff to the departure signal?
Is there a diagram available to show the layout?
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A end is Coventry
B end is Wolves
4C is at the B end
 
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Minilad

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dggar said:
Sorry, but I'm still confused by this explanation from Minilad. I live in Manchester and very rarely travel through New Street.
Is the A end towards Coventry or towards Wolverhampton?
Are you saying that the train (Drivers Cab) had stopped initially beyond the signal which protects the points and was then called forward by the platform staff to the departure signal?
Is there a diagram available to show the layout?
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The A end is at the Coventry end. The train had come in from the Coventry end and then had to travel back out towards Coventry. The driver was asked to pull up to the signal by the platform staff
 
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theironroad

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While upthread someone has helpfully shown the local instructions for new street, I must admit as a driver I'd personally prefer those rules not to exist. The similar rules of acting on the verbal instructions of a handsignaller, who may or not have spoken to the signalled are an equally fraught area.

All conversations between drivers and signallers via gsmr or spt are recorded which at least means if there is incident, the recordings will (should !) be available for the investigation.
 
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LAX54

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Minilad said:
The incident took place on platform 10 towards the A end. There is a signal at the mid point of the platform which protects the set of points that brings trains out of the number three sidings and then a signal just after the points for departing trains. The train in question was at a stand in between the two signals and the platform staff instructed the driver to move the train down to the signal. This is perfectly within the rules at New Street where instructions can be given by platform staff after consulting the signaller. The train was then moved towards the signal and subsequently ran trough the points at a slow speed stopping before the signal was reached. The platform staff hadn't checked with the signaller first to instruct the move. The driver should have checked the points but it is pretty dark down there and the signal is only a little further along the platform so was concentrating on that. Hopefully that clears up any confusion about the incident.
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I am still finding it all a bit 'odd' :) Looking at CCF, and P10 at New Street, I cannot fathom out, if the train arrived from Coventry, and was going back that way, and stopped half way down, why the points to what looks like No 3 siding were reversed ? and ifthe train stood foul of the mid platform signal, how did that allow the points to be moved ? ( and further, if you can signal to / from No3 sdg, why no one saw it ! )
 
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Minilad

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LAX54 said:
I am still finding it all a bit 'odd' :) Looking at CCF, and P10 at New Street, I cannot fathom out, if the train arrived from Coventry, and was going back that way, and stopped half way down, why the points to what looks like No 3 siding were reversed ? and ifthe train stood foul of the mid platform signal, how did that allow the points to be moved ? ( and further, if you can signal to / from No3 sdg, why no one saw it ! )
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Sorry I can't answer any of those questions as I wasn't there. The information I gave came directly from the driver that was seen in the programme sent to move the train. I haven't been able to speak directly to the driver involved as I haven't seen them since the programme was aired
 
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BenW390Fan said:
They have to make it seem "unreliable" to give it a bit of drama and make it seem relatable
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Its like the British obsession with the weather; rubbishing public transport comes a close second! <(
theironroad said:
While upthread someone has helpfully shown the local instructions for new street, I must admit as a driver I'd personally prefer those rules not to exist.
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I respect the views of folk like yourself who actually are in a position to know about these things and I'm grateful for the insight it provides.
Maybe those responsible for the rule book ought to (at the very least) take your views into consideration?

Minilad said:
Sorry I can't answer any of those questions as I wasn't there.
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Again, thanks for the insight that you have provided.
 
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