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Japan has scrapped hundreds of Shinkansen in perfect condition

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Wardog

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I hope its ok that I ask train related questions in here, since we dont really have serious train forums here in Denmark :lol:

It really strikes me that Japan has scrapped all 69 sets of the 300 series Shinkansen build from 1990 - 1998 - not exactly an old train. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/300_Series_Shinkansen
With the entry into service of new N700 series trains, withdrawals of production 300 series sets began in July 2007 with the withdrawal of set J14.

The remaining fleet of JR Central 300 series sets were removed from regular scheduled services from 1 February 2012,[5] and were completely withdrawn following the final runs on 16 March 2012.[2]
They are also in the process of scrapping 26 sets of their E4 bi-level series build between 1997 - 2003. What a Waste! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E4_Series_Shinkansen

In March 2011, it was announced that the entire E4 series fleet would be withdrawn by around 2016.[7]

In September 2012, E4 series were entirely withdrawn from Tohoku Shinkansen services, and all allocated for use on Joetsu Shinkansen services only.[4]

Withdrawals started in July 2013, with sets P2 and P3.[5]
They do this only to save rather few minutes with newer trains on the main routes.

Does anybody know what the scrap price is per train set?

If another country could buy them for the scrap price and use them in service, then that might be quite a bargain. :razz:
 
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Xenophon PCDGS

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I hope its ok that I ask train related questions in here, since we dont really have serious train forums here in Denmark :lol:

It really strikes me that Japan has scrapped all 69 sets of the 300 series Shinkansen build from 1990 - 1998 - not exactly an old train. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/300_Series_Shinkansen

They are also in the process of scrapping 26 sets of their E4 bi-level series build between 1997 - 2003. What a Waste! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E4_Series_Shinkansen

They do this only to save rather few minutes with newer trains on the main routes. Does anybody know what the scrap price is per train set? If another country could buy them for the scrap price and use them in service, then that might be quite a bargain. :razz:

Why not give Vivarail a call....:D

Welcome to the website.
 

Jegerpizza

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It is a big waste to scrap them, when other countries such as Denmark could use them. Eg On the current under construction High Speed Line in Denmark, Denmark currently don't have trains that can go over 200kmh. I think it is a big shame, when you look at other countries that really could use them.

Also welcome to the Forums, glad to see another Dane on here ;) .
 

notadriver

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Yes it's amazing how they scrap trains so young while we soldier on with 30 year old stock. Having said that isn't some of their suburban stock quite old

Ps : isn't the loading gauge of a Shinkansen train set bigger than in Europe ?
 
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ainsworth74

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If they were designed and procured with a view to only having a life of fifteenish years how is it a waste? If they'd built them expecting them to last forty years then fair enough something has obviously gone quite wrong. Otherwise?
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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In the February 2015 issue of Rail Engineer, on pp24-27, there is an interesting story headed "The Cost of Failure" that concerns Denmark and the saga of the 82 IC4 units that were built by the Italian company AnseldoBreda with a 15 year long operational life, which were intended to replace the IC3 fleet.
 

notadriver

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The only examples of vehicles that I can think of with a relatively short design life are in the miltary - some ships and submarines.
 

Wardog

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It is a big waste to scrap them, when other countries such as Denmark could use them. Eg On the current under construction High Speed Line in Denmark, Denmark currently don't have trains that can go over 200kmh. I think it is a big shame, when you look at other countries that really could use them.

Also welcome to the Forums, glad to see another Dane on here ;) .
Thank you my danish brother :D

I wonder if the scrapped Shinkansen trains theoretically could fit on to our Danish tracks and stations, taking their height and width into consideration?

Also, they could theoretically run on batteries, according to www.palludan.dk - Fremtidens jernbane.

I for one, would prefer second hand Shinkansen trains at scrap prices (could be as low as 1 million Pounds/10 million Danish kroners per set?) and try to make them run on batteries, instead of that horrible IC4 crap that we are stucked on now. The Shinkansen scrap price is merely a guess, and I am really eager to know the actual scrap price. After all, we are talking about train sets with a new price of around 20 - 25 million Pounds per set. ;)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Yes it's amazing how they scrap trains so young while we soldier on with 30 year old stock. Having said that isn't some of their suburban stock quite old

Ps : isn't the loading gauge of a Shinkansen train set bigger than in Europe ?
Japanese make the most reliable and long lasting products in the world, so I find it hard to believe that their trains is an exception. Furthermore, they must be extremely well maintained as well, if I know Japanese thoroughness well.

Sorry, I dont understand what you mean by loading gauge? The width is the standard 1435 mm gauge that we use...
 
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Wardog

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If they were designed and procured with a view to only having a life of fifteenish years how is it a waste? If they'd built them expecting them to last forty years then fair enough something has obviously gone quite wrong. Otherwise?
The first generations of Shinkansen trains (0 and 100 and 200 series) lasted for around 30 - 40 years without serious tecnical problems. I expect that the scrapped 200, 300, and E4 series is build in the same long lasting quality.

It seems like scrapping a 15 year old Toyota Avensis in perfect condition...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
they definetely dont fit onto British railroads, but im not for sure about loading gauge restrictions in Denmark. We got S-trains that are almost 3,6 meters wide, but that might differ from normal standards?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
In the February 2015 issue of Rail Engineer, on pp24-27, there is an interesting story headed "The Cost of Failure" that concerns Denmark and the saga of the 82 IC4 units that were built by the Italian company AnseldoBreda with a 15 year long operational life, which were intended to replace the IC3 fleet.
Please dont talk about it, because its extremely embarrasing. :D

Im about to call it the biggest disaster in newer European railway history. The idiots who run the Danish State Railways had the oppourtunity to get the Money for the IC4 refunded from AnsaldoBreda (as far as I know), but choose to buy them with a discount of around 200 million Pounds, outta the total amount of 570 million Pounds. These trains are practically worthless...:roll:
 

ainsworth74

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The first generations of Shinkansen trains (0 and 100 and 200 series) lasted for around 30 - 40 years without serious tecnical problems. I expect that the scrapped 200, 300, and E4 series is build in the same long lasting quality.

It seems like scrapping a 15 year old Toyota Avensis in perfect condition...

15 years is pretty good going for a car! If you'd had the same car for that long I doubt you'd be that opposed to buying a new one if something caught your eye ;)

Note that I didn't say anything about build quality, I'm sure current units are of the same high quality as previous generations. My point was indicating that their designed life and expected life may be considerably shorter that previous generations. That doesn't mean they're a poor quality product.

Our HSTs were supposed to be a stop gap lasting fifteen maybe twenty years. Currently their well into their thirties and some will probably make it to well beyond forty!

So as I said previously if the withdrawn units were expected and planned to last thirty years then it does seem a waste. If their planned lives were only fifteen years or so then I don't see the issue.
 

Wardog

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15 years is pretty good going for a car! If you'd had the same car for that long I doubt you'd be that opposed to buying a new one if something caught your eye ;)

Note that I didn't say anything about build quality, I'm sure current units are of the same high quality as previous generations. My point was indicating that their designed life and expected life may be considerably shorter that previous generations. That doesn't mean they're a poor quality product.

Our HSTs were supposed to be a stop gap lasting fifteen maybe twenty years. Currently their well into their thirties and some will probably make it to well beyond forty!

So as I said previously if the withdrawn units were expected and planned to last thirty years then it does seem a waste. If their planned lives were only fifteen years or so then I don't see the issue.
I agree, but how can we find out what their intended life expansy was?

10 - 15 years old hi-tech and high speed trains with a new price tag of at least £20 million per set are actually being cut up as we speak.

It seems to me that the only reason for this madness is to save minutes only between the big japanese cities, but I could be wrong.

It deserves some investigation I think...;)
 
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edwin_m

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Transferring these trains to Europe may raise some concerns about structural strength. I believe the Japanese have adopted lower standards than the "UIC" ones that apply in Europe. The Japanese 1435mm gauge trains run only on the purpose-built Shinkansen network under modern signalling and train protection systems and with no level crossings, and as far as I know there has never been a collision. The Japanese policy i to continue to prevent collisions instead of making the train strong enough to make a collision more survivable.

However there are more risks on the European networks, excepting purpose-built high speed routes. Collisions with road vehicles on level crossings are quite frequent and train-to-train collisions happen occasionally. A collision between two Japanese-standard trains could be worse than between two European-standard trains and a European-standard train striking a Japanese-standard train could be worst of all.
 

yorksrob

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Perhaps it's my Southern Region routes coming to the fore, but destruction after fifteen years horrifies me.

Surely they should have designed the units to last longer in the first place ?

I'll have to comfort myself and think of the Hastings DEMU's which were a ten year stop-gap, but lasted thirty years.

Or the InterCity 125, a stop gap still with us forty years later.

Build to last.
 

notadriver

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I think they are fine - it's just that they need more modern Shinkansen trains to boost speed and capacity. Older models would cause punctuality problems. Imagine putting a 1960s slam door EMU on today's tight schedules !
 

Wardog

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I think they are fine - it's just that they need more modern Shinkansen trains to boost speed and capacity. Older models would cause punctuality problems. Imagine putting a 1960s slam door EMU on today's tight schedules !
Its hardly about punctuality, since they are all completely automated, and always on time. Nor can it be about seating capacity, since the E4 bi-level has the highest in the world for fast trains. Its about replacing them with newer trains for the only reason of saving only 5 -10 minutes on the whole journey.

The Whole Shinkansen Network is going to be replaced with Maglev trains within 15 years anyway, and in that light it makes even less sense to replace them.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Here is the replacement for the 300 series: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N700_Series_Shinkansen

The N700 series (N700系?) is a Japanese Shinkansen high-speed train with tilting capability developed jointly by JR Central and JR West for use on the Tokaido and Sanyo Shinkansen lines since 2007, and also operated by JR Kyushu on the Kyushu Shinkansen line.

N700 series trains have a maximum speed of 300 km/h (186 mph), and tilting of up to one degree allows the trains to maintain 270 km/h (168 mph) even on 2,500 m (8,200 ft) radius curves that previously had a maximum speed of 255 km/h (158 mph). Another feature of the N700 is that it accelerates quicker than other shinkansen trains, with a maximum acceleration rate of 2.6 km/h/s. This enables it to reach 270 km/h (170 mph) in only three minutes. Because of these improvements, trains can travel between Tokyo and Osaka on a Nozomi run in as little as 2 hours and 25 minutes (5 minutes faster than before).
 
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notadriver

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Right so mixing n700 and 300 series would cause punctuality problems so maybe thats why they are getting rid of the older version. What I'm saying is mixing the older and fast trains will cause punctuality problems.

When you say they are automated - how do you mean ? From all the videos I've seen the driver controls the train according to the speed shown on the cab display. This only intervenes if the permitted speed is exceeded. All high speed trains are to my knowledge operated in this way.
 

higthomas

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The Whole Shinkansen Network is going to be replaced with Maglev trains within 15 years anyway, and in that light it makes even less sense to replace them.

Hmm, not heard that one before, maybe do some research on that front.

The reason they would cause punctuality problems would likely be due to poorer acceleration and top speeds, which mean that if they get behind it is harder to catch up and things.

The reason they will help with capacity is likely that you will be able to run more trains due to newer ones having higher top speeds and acceleration which allows you to run more trains per hour, and thus get more trains per hour. It's one of the reasons loco hauled stock is being removed in Europe.
 

SpacePhoenix

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Unless they're completely life expired it seems crazy scrapping them. Could they be converted to another track gauge for use in another country?
 

upnorth71

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Shinkansen stock are designed for 20 year service lives. They are steadily replaced by more modern railway stock once that period is reached. The rolling stock policy differs from European state railways and American passenger operators as the Shinkansen operating companies are for-profit and listed on the Tokyo Stock Exchange, and thus rolling stock is steadily replaced by more efficient (in power consumption and lower maintenance cost) units, as well as better performance (higher speed and perhaps even more importantly, braking performance). This has been the policy of the JR companies ever since the old national railway (JNR) was broken up and sectorised.

n.b. the Chuo Shinkansen Maglev line is not a replacement for the conventional Shinkansen line, it is being built as a relief line for the at-capacity Tokaido Shinkansen line. You really should visit Shin-Osaka Station on a weekday evening- high speed trains departing at 3 minute headways is the norm.
 

notadriver

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Very interesting upnorth71. Thank you for that. I have a family member who works in Kyoto. 20 years seems to be about right for some of our stock before a refurbishment is needed. The networkers I believe see past their sell by date.
 

12CSVT

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B. R. Standard steam locos (in particular the 9Fs), Western Region diesel hydraulics, London Underground Jubilee Line 1983 stock .............................

There's been many cases of this happening in this country as well.
 

Wardog

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Shinkansen stock are designed for 20 year service lives. They are steadily replaced by more modern railway stock once that period is reached. The rolling stock policy differs from European state railways and American passenger operators as the Shinkansen operating companies are for-profit and listed on the Tokyo Stock Exchange, and thus rolling stock is steadily replaced by more efficient (in power consumption and lower maintenance cost) units, as well as better performance (higher speed and perhaps even more importantly, braking performance). This has been the policy of the JR companies ever since the old national railway (JNR) was broken up and sectorised.

n.b. the Chuo Shinkansen Maglev line is not a replacement for the conventional Shinkansen line, it is being built as a relief line for the at-capacity Tokaido Shinkansen line. You really should visit Shin-Osaka Station on a weekday evening- high speed trains departing at 3 minute headways is the norm.
Thanks for that info.

Are the withdrawn Shinkansen trains being sold back to the factory for parts, or are they simply being scrapped like an old car?

Would you happen to know the scrap/recycling price that JR recieve for the trains? I find it hard to believe that it could be more than 1/2 - 1 million British Pounds per trainset in either case...:D

Secondly, would you argue that the scrapped trains could last for 40 years without much maintainence? That seemed to be the case for the first generations of Shinkansen. ;)
 
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Taunton

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The Japanese policy is to continue to prevent collisions instead of making the train strong enough to make a collision more survivable.
This was of course the German Maglev approach; no need for much structural strength because collisions were impossible .......
 

tranzitjim

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For the Japanise, anything more than five years old is 'too old' for them.

We had found that out here. For a while in my corner of Australia, the boom trade of the time was tourists from Japan, and tour bus operators would naturally cash in on them.

The Japanise would demand the bus not be more than five years old, or at least the interior had to be that new.

One tour group walked off a road coach that was right on five years old, and told the operator to get us a coach that was newer.
 

Wolfie

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The only examples of vehicles that I can think of with a relatively short design life are in the miltary - some ships and submarines.

my bold

You are having a giraffe.... 30+years design life is standard for both!... whether, due to changing priorities/defence cuts etc, some may be withdrawn early on occasion is a different issue...
 

455driver

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my bold

You are having a giraffe.... 30+years design life is standard for both!... whether, due to changing priorities/defence cuts etc, some may be withdrawn early on occasion is a different issue...

What about our aircraft carriers that were built with a 20 year hull and have now been withdrawn with no replacement in sight!
 

notadriver

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You're right Wolfie - I've just gone by some examples such as Los Angeles Class of submarines some of which were retired early.

(Source Wikipedia)
 

Peter Mugridge

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Shinkansen stock are designed for 20 year service lives.

SNCF has recently withdrawn three TGV-A sets ( 318, 338 and 371 ) which are only 20 years old - and that's on top of the total so far of over 40 TGV-SE withdrawals ( those being roughly 30 years old ).

High speed stock does tend to have a shorter working life than ordinary stock - a point that a few people have made on this forum in recent months.
 

notadriver

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Are there also a few Eurostar sets (former north of London sets?) now surplus to requirements ?
 
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