Josiah Stamp: unsung LMS, rail (and war?) hero?

[70014IronDuke]

Just reading the Wikipedia pages for Josiah Stamp - who took the helm of the LMS, revamped the company (including bringing in William Stanier as CME) and, arguably, made Britain's largest railway company fit for war - no doubt a vital element of the war effort. (Somewhat of a sad irony, he was killed in a Luftwaffe bombing raid in Shortlands, S London. )

Yet, unlike, say, William Whitelaw of the LNER, the LMS didn't name any locomotives after its chaiman-CEOs - so Stamp is a name I suspect few railway buffs know. OK, he wasn't a railwayman 'through and through' - he'd previously been a tax chief! But his work at the LMS seems to have been of huge importance.

Is there any rail-related memorial to the man? A statue at Crew? A plaque at Euston? I've certainly never heard or seen any such. Stanier remains famous - in large part due to Stamp - yet Stamp is largely unsung.

EDIT - meant to put in the link
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josiah_Stamp,_1st_Baron_Stamp

 

[edwin_m]

I have a vague memory of a Class 86 being named after him, but he's not in the Wikipedia list so I may be imagining it.

 

[John Webb]

Sir Stamp went to the LMS in 1926 from Mond Nickel Co. He chose to work mostly via an executive committee of vice-presidents. His policies lead to better performance, workshop productivity and the reduction of infighting between rival factions in both loco and rolling stock departments by bringing in W A Stanier. But away from the major railway centres it seems his strict financial control and centralised and somewhat authoritarian management adversely affected morale. Thus Stamp was not well-known to most of the staff. He was also busy with government and academic work, and was a lay preacher. (Information from "The Oxford Companion to British Railway History" by J Simmons and G Biddle, OUP 1997.)
I would guess that he was, like many of that time, not one for putting himself forward. If he had survived the war into nationalisation, perhaps one of the new BR locos might have been named after him?

 

[sprinterguy]

I have a vague memory of a Class 86 being named after him, but he's not in the Wikipedia list so I may be imagining it.

The name "Lord Stamp" was allocated to 86231, but not, as far as I am aware, ever carried by that loco. The name was subsequently carried by 90007.

 

[Warwick]

I believe that it is his son Josiah Richard Stamp known as Richard who is a second rate conductor of music.

 

[70014IronDuke]

The name "Lord Stamp" was allocated to 86231, but not, as far as I am aware, ever carried by that loco. The name was subsequently carried by 90007.

Well, perhaps that is some recognition. The trouble is, I expect 999,999 out of a million people who see it will presumably imagine he invented the postage stamp

 

[30907]

I believe that it is his son Josiah Richard Stamp known as Richard who is a second rate conductor of music.

Grandson possibly, given that he was born 2 years after the noble Lord's death. I vow to your superior knowledge of conductors, musical or other.

(Somewhat of a sad irony, he was killed in a Luftwaffe bombing raid in Shortlands, S London. )

To be pedantic, Shortlands was in Kent then and SE London now. A very distinctive house by local standards was built on the site.

 

[Cowley]

A very interesting man and although I’d heard of the name I didn’t know much about him.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

His brother - Dudley - was a prolific writer of Geography textbooks , very much in the primeval stages of the subject - when it was almost all "regional" studies and so on. Compared to the structural changes of the 1970's.

Mrs Stamp - Olive , Baroness Stamp was an Aberystwyth graduate , and I believe the chairperson of the Old Students Association. She gets a mention in the annual OSA report to this day.

Referred scathingly as "the margarine king" due to his supposed tight controls on costs etc , but these were tight years for the railways.

 

[mpthomson]

I believe that it is his son Josiah Richard Stamp known as Richard who is a second rate conductor of music.

I've played under him professionally, he's hardly second rate (better than some more 'household' names I can mention) and has a significant body of well reviewed recording and live performance behind him.

 

[Warwick]

I've played under him professionally, he's hardly second rate (better than some more 'household' names I can mention) and has a significant body of well reviewed recording and live performance behind him.

. Well that's one opinion. My late wife was a professional and after a couple of concerts with what was the Little Venice Orchestra under him she was somewhat scathing and as a very well respected performer I'll put my trust with her memories.

 

[Dr Hoo]

A couple of points not already made:
It seems that Stamp was brought in from outside (as a former civil servant/tax official, industrialist and economist/statistician) to fill a perceived lack of real business talent within the LMS' constituents. Herbert Walker (an ex-LNW man) had turned the job down, preferring his prospects on the Southern Railway.
Stamp was evidently quite austere as a non-conformist lay preacher, non-smoking teetotaller.
In many ways he was a precursor to Dr Beeching, seeking improved costing information (down to individual locomotive level, which drove a lot of work to improve fuel efficiency). He also saw the value in more strategic initiatives to improve the LMS in terms of research facilities and the School of Transport at Derby.
He was by the most dominant figure in the LMS' history, albeit not apparently very high profile compared to some of his contemporaries.

 

[yorkie]

. Well that's one opinion. My late wife was a professional and after a couple of concerts with what was the Little Venice Orchestra under him she was somewhat scathing and as a very well respected performer I'll put my trust with her memories.

I've played under him professionally, he's hardly second rate (better than some more 'household' names I can mention) and has a significant body of well reviewed recording and live performance behind him.

I think I know whose opinion I trust!

Some people are full of bitterness and negativity for some reason I'll never fully understand.

 

[70014IronDuke]

I think I know whose opinion I trust!

Some people are full of bitterness and negativity for some reason I'll never fully understand.

Some people have off days. And no two observers see a third person in exactly the same light - and people interpret and judge actions sometimes in direct contrast to intentions.
OT I remember, a long time ago, teaching a class of adults which had pretty wide variation in abilities and skills, despite having had exactly the same instruction for the previous year. There was one woman, about 55 I'd guess, who was definitely a laggard compared to the average, and way, way behind the leaders in the group. I made special efforts to help her understand, tried to give her a few more questions to answer to encourage here along - actually, to the detriment of the rest of the class.
One day, mid-class, she burst into tears, accused me of singling her out, trying to make her look stupid in front of the others, and ran out of the room.
I'm sure she was convinced of this to this day, if she is still with us - when, in fact, my intentions had been the opposite. Best laid plans etc ...

 

[RT4038]

I think I know whose opinion I trust!

Some people are full of bitterness and negativity for some reason I'll never fully understand.

Quite.

If you can't say anything good about someone, rather say nothing at all.

I'm sure he'd take the fares on my bus OK!

 

[Taunton]

It seems that Stamp was brought in from outside (as a former civil servant/tax official, industrialist and economist/statistician) to fill a perceived lack of real business talent within the LMS' constituents.

Reminiscent of Beeching then.

The LMS seemed to have a notable problem with top management. The poor CMEs, leading to have to recruit Stanier from Swindon. The LNER for all its shortage of cash seemed to have a better grip on management training.

Management was done a bit differently a century ago. The board of directors, including the Chairman, were typically part timers who held a number of such posts (Stamp was a Director of the Bank of England at the same time), and principally represented the shareholders, and concentrated on giving policy, deciding the dividends (not much for the LMS shareholders), that sort of thing. The top full timer, the General Manager, was normally not a director or board member, although he of course worked closely with them.

Recruitment of Stanier followed a formal path. Stamp started it off by a quiet chat with Viscount Churchill, his compatriot at the GWR, probably at one of their London clubs. It then had to go down through the GWR General Manager, then Collett as CME, before Stanier was spoken to. That's how it was.

 

[AndrewE]

Reminiscent of Beeching then.

The LMS seemed to have a notable problem with top management. The poor CMEs, leading to have to recruit Stanier from Swindon. The LNER for all its shortage of cash seemed to have a better grip on management training...

...and who took on one Nigel Gresley, trained initially by the LNWR in Crewe and then by the L&YR in Horwich and other places, like Newton Heath!

 

[ChiefPlanner]

...and who took on one Nigel Gresley, trained initially by the LNWR in Crewe and then by the L&YR in Horwich and other places, like Newton Heath!

Very famously took on one Gerard Twistleton- Fiennes ,a man with a 3d class Honours Degree* and an aversion to train travel apparently , who became one of the great railway managers of the 20thC (and who wrote it all down for the enjoyment of many people) , interesting stuff - who could forget the recently departed Richard Hardy .The LMS I believe treated their managers quite harshly and worked them hard (though -as ever - the good rose to the challenge - think of S E Parkhouse who became the BRB's Chief Operating Manager after some very tough jobs , notably in WW2 as Head of the Western Division) , the Southern had a cadre of Officer Cadets. The GWR trained their high flyers through the District Manager hierarchy - to some good effect.


(*he candidly said that the examiners really ought to have failed him)

 

[6Gman]

There is a Stamp Avenue in Crewe which, I believe, is named after said gent.

I understand, from ex-LMS staff in my family, that he was not a popular figure among the workforce.

 

[43096]

I understand, from ex-LMS staff in my family, that he was not a popular figure among the workforce.

He was running a business, not a popularity contest. Leaders have to make hard decisions - not everyone will like them.

 

[6Gman]

He was running a business, not a popularity contest. Leaders have to make hard decisions - not everyone will like them.

True. But encouraging staff morale is generally a good policy.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

True. But encouraging staff morale is generally a good policy.

Somewhere in the distant past , I was loaned some LMS staff magazines , - there seemed to be quite buoyant shots of Sir Joshua appearing at staff awards etc , particularly for the "quota" system where stations and depots that had surpassed their revenue targets , were rewarded for their efforts. I would regard that as an improvement attempt at staff morale.

The culture of the time , for senior management in industry was I suspect not terribly "inclusive" - I doubt that my grandfather down an Amalgamated Anthracite "owned" pit ever saw anyone above the level of a shift manager , and the Directors would not have abandoned their nice offices in the City of London , to spur on the troops in the far west of Wales.