Journey from Frankfurt to Brussels with pass, cancelled train means having to pay to use Thalys to m

[BigCj34]

I was doing an all day travel inbound from Bratislava to London on August 27 (final destination Colchester), where I had to catch the Eurostar at 18:57 from Brussels to London. The 14:29 Deutsche Bahn service from Frankfurt to Brussels I had booked with my pass was cancelled, and after going to the ticket office the advice for reaching Brussels to make the last Eurostar was to take the 15:10 DB service to Cologne and then take the 16:43 Thalys train to Brussels-Midi. I received a stamp certifying the train was cancelled and was told about compensation and given a form, though as my reservation fee for Frankfurt to Brussels was EUR 4.50 I am not sure how much compensation is due.

This journey would have potentially meant having to be rebooked onto the last Eurostar at 19:52, but I just made the 18:57 train so that was not an issue.

Interrail passes are only valid on Thalys trains with reservations, in which there were none available for the intended train, so had to pay 66 Euro for a standard single ticket. Given this situation would not have happened had DB not cancelled the train, and the next DB service from Frankfurt to Brussels was 2 hours later which would have resulted in me missing the final Eurostar connection and consequently being stranded in Brussels, will Deutsche Bahn pay up for this?

I am well aware that compensation can be paid if at least 3 journeys using the pass were 60 minutes delayed, but in my case only 2 train journeys were.

 

[matt]

When this happened to me I didn't have to pay any extra to use Thalys between Cologne and Brussels.

 

[BigCj34]

When this happened to me I didn't have to pay any extra to use Thalys between Cologne and Brussels.

When was that? Were you using an interrail pass? I asked about it on the Thalys and said that they would not accept DB tickets as they were another company.

 

[Bletchleyite]

When this happened to me I didn't have to pay any extra to use Thalys between Cologne and Brussels.

Was it with an InterRail? I doubt CIV applies to it - if it was single or return tickets, CIV probably would apply, certainly all actual DB tickets are marked CIV (it's on the blanks).

 

[matt]

It was a few years ago, 2012 I think. Yes it was an Interrail. I had my ICE reservation endorsed at Cologne and had no issues on Thalys other than having to move to the vestibule tip up seats.

 

[duesselmartin]

ICE International seems to have many issues on that route in the last two years ago. I usually book Thalys nowadays via thr SNCB site as that way I get one journey connections to and from the DB network.

 

[BigCj34]

It turns out DB, Eurostar and Thalys are part of the Railteam's Hop on the next available train (HOTNAT) policy, which I did not know about yesterday, so really I should have been able to have my ticket's endorsed for Thalys travel. DB couldn't do that in Frankfurt for some reason and told me to call Thalys as there would have been no time for Thalys to endorse it at Cologne. However despite trying to call them and explain the situation it sounded like I had to buy a ticket, and then my phone signal dropped off so bought one online for the full price. So if that policy is anything to go by I need not have bought a ticket, so hopefully I can get a refund though I have a bad feeling they might refuse!

 

[Capybara]

There's been correspondence about this sort of thing in Today's Railways Europe over the past two or three issues, mostly pointing the finger at DB for being less than helpful and to Railteam procedures not working. I do two or three Interrail trips a year, almost always travelling back on through Cologne and Brussels and have long since given up on using ICEs because of the unreliability of the service. I've been cancelled at Aachen in both directions as well as being diverted through Verviers, and I've seen cancellations at Aachen and Cologne on several occasions. So I always leave plenty of time and if everything goes well I have a long wait in Brussels which is not the ideal way to end a nice break but at least I catch the Eurostar.

Having said that, I also had a problem earlier this year where two successive SNCB trains to Welkenraedt didn't turn up, being notified as cancelled right at the last minute. The DB staff took the "it's nothing to do with us" attitude and were completely unhelpful - you would have thought that they would have someone at SNCB to call to find out what was going on. Eventually a replacement coach turned up but on this occasion I, and others, missed our Eurostar connection.

A couple of questions. I've seen reference on here on a number of occasions to getting tickets 'endorsed'. What do you do and what do you ask for? Secondly, if I'm travelling on an Interrail ticket without a reservation as I've done in the past and you are allowed to do, and my ICE to Brussels is cancelled, where do I stand?

 

[BigCj34]

There's been correspondence about this sort of thing in Today's Railways Europe over the past two or three issues, mostly pointing the finger at DB for being less than helpful and to Railteam procedures not working. I do two or three Interrail trips a year, almost always travelling back on through Cologne and Brussels and have long since given up on using ICEs because of the unreliability of the service. I've been cancelled at Aachen in both directions as well as being diverted through Verviers, and I've seen cancellations at Aachen and Cologne on several occasions. So I always leave plenty of time and if everything goes well I have a long wait in Brussels which is not the ideal way to end a nice break but at least I catch the Eurostar.

Having said that, I also had a problem earlier this year where two successive SNCB trains to Welkenraedt didn't turn up, being notified as cancelled right at the last minute. The DB staff took the "it's nothing to do with us" attitude and were completely unhelpful - you would have thought that they would have someone at SNCB to call to find out what was going on. Eventually a replacement coach turned up but on this occasion I, and others, missed our Eurostar connection.

A couple of questions. I've seen reference on here on a number of occasions to getting tickets 'endorsed'. What do you do and what do you ask for? Secondly, if I'm travelling on an Interrail ticket without a reservation as I've done in the past and you are allowed to do, and my ICE to Brussels is cancelled, where do I stand?

I believe the Frankfurt - Brussels via DB has to be reserved, at least the segment from Cologne anyway, though the reservation fee of of EUR 4.50 remains the same when booked through DB. Conventional wisdom should dictate that as soon as you're on a Railteam train then you are protected for connections, though it may be safer to just get a seat reservation if it is cheap.

 

[matt]

You don't need a reservation on the Brussels ICE. I did it earlier this year both ways on an Interrail, this time with no reservation.

 

[duesselmartin]

You don't need a reservation on the Brussels ICE. I did it earlier this year both ways on an Interrail, this time with no reservation.

No reservations needed but recommended.

 

[morrisobrien]

I have now started to stay overnight in Brussels to alleviate this problem, and catch the first Eurostar the following day.As stated,no reservations are required outbound or return on the DB Brussels_

 

[Bletchleyite]

What is the cause of the poor reliability? It seems to have been going on for years.

 

[YorkshireBear]

I was thinking of doing a trip next year which involved using the ICEs from Brussels to Cologne. Mainly because the reservation fee with ICE is well under Thalys with the interail pass. Bit of a shame to hear how unreliable it is.

Is it worth having a plan B, is it TPE levels of unreliability?

 

[30907]

What is the cause of the poor reliability? It seems to have been going on for years.

Don't know anything specific, but it doesn't seem confined to the units capable of running to BE/NL, but with increased frequency to Brussels availability is particularly tight.
They used to swap passengers over at Dueren which was dire - planned cancellations of Frankfurt-Koeln seems more sensible (on my most recent trip the cancellations were announced a day or two in advance, and the Delay Notification email worked well).
What you can't plan for is last minute failures, and these seem increasingly common across DB.

Plan B: allow a buffer somewhere en route rather than a whole series of tight connections - but that applies anywhere (the only tume I've had to make an overnight stop was on a SBB journey!)

 

[Capybara]

I was thinking of doing a trip next year which involved using the ICEs from Brussels to Cologne. Mainly because the reservation fee with ICE is well under Thalys with the interail pass. Bit of a shame to hear how unreliable it is.

Is it worth having a plan B, is it TPE levels of unreliability?

I would say it's always worth having a plan B when travelling a long distance involving changes. I always do, and usually a Plan C and occasionally a Plan D. Brussels to Cologne is 3h 16m travelling by 'normal' trains, though the connections at Verviers or Welkenraedt are quite tight and SNCB warns that if the train from Brussels is more than 5 minutes late then the connection won't be held.

Anyway, endorsement anyone?

 

[k-c-p]

What is the cause of the poor reliability? It seems to have been going on for years.

The number of class 406 trains that can got to Belgium is relatively small. Over the last few weeks DB had to cancel several trains between Frankfurt and Cologne to have enough sets available to run the service to Brussels. Several trains set were out of service as the heat took its toll on them.

There are several changes in the signalling (KVB vs ETCS vs PZB/LZB) and electrial systems (AC vs DC) en route from Cologne to Brussels and sometimes things do not work out. Last year on a business trip to Brussels the ICE broke down after the DC-to-AC-change when we joined the high speed line. They managed to get the train up and running again and we crawled to Liège where we had to leave and continue our voyage using SNCB domestic trains (they accepted our German ICE ticket without any issues when we told them that our train broke down).

Additionally, there is usually no spare train in Brussels during the day: When the outbound train from Cologne has an issue this usually results in the cancellation of the return service, as there is no train to fill the void.

It turns out DB, Eurostar and Thalys are part of the Railteam's Hop on the next available train (HOTNAT) policy

Unfortunately, HONAT is not an obligation or passenger right, but just a gentlemen agreement between the rail operators. I also heard somewhere that HONAT only covers delays but not cancellation (but I am not completely sure). Thalys is a bit special in terms of customer service: A few years back I heard an angry conversation between Thalys staff and a passenger, where they told him: "It was his decision to travel with them". Or an episode from Paris-North: A family with a stroller is running to the platform. When they are about 10m away Thalys staff roped off the platform and would not let them board.

In Germany, passenger rights would allow you to take another train than the one indicated on you ticket, when a train is cancelled or a delay of more then 20min is to expected at our final destination. You would not need a special endorsement to use another train. But this only covers trains that do not require a reservation. So for a Thalys your would need an endorsement as it requires a reservation.

Given this situation would not have happened had DB not cancelled the train, and the next DB service from Frankfurt to Brussels was 2 hours later which would have resulted in me missing the final Eurostar connection and consequently being stranded in Brussels, will Deutsche Bahn pay up for this?

In this case they would have be required to put you in a hotel. Sometimes vouchers are handed it out or you book a hotel on your own and put in a compensation form later on to get the hotel costs refunded. There is a maximum hotel refund limit (around 80€ I guess). Given that there is not much DB staff in Brussels you have to deal with the SNCB people.

For your Thalys Ticket you can try to get a refund by writing a nice letter to the Passenger Rights Office and State what happened (ICE xx to Brussels was cancelled, next ICE train would result in missed EST, Thalys required you to buy a new ticket), enclose the Thalys-Ticket. You will get an answer in a few weeks and maybe a refund. The address is:

Servicecenter Fahrgastrechte
60647 Frankfurt
Germany

I will be using the Brussels-ICE service (with EST-connections) next month. Let's see which surprises DB and EST (which is much worse than the DB in managing incidents when things go south) have in store

Cheers
Charly

 

[BigCj34]

The number of class 406 trains that can got to Belgium is relatively small. Over the last few weeks DB had to cancel several trains between Frankfurt and Cologne to have enough sets available to run the service to Brussels. Several trains set were out of service as the heat took its toll on them.

There are several changes in the signalling (KVB vs ETCS vs PZB/LZB) and electrial systems (AC vs DC) en route from Cologne to Brussels and sometimes things do not work out. Last year on a business trip to Brussels the ICE broke down after the DC-to-AC-change when we joined the high speed line. They managed to get the train up and running again and we crawled to Liège where we had to leave and continue our voyage using SNCB domestic trains (they accepted our German ICE ticket without any issues when we told them that our train broke down).

Additionally, there is usually no spare train in Brussels during the day: When the outbound train from Cologne has an issue this usually results in the cancellation of the return service, as there is no train to fill the void.



Unfortunately, HONAT is not an obligation or passenger right, but just a gentlemen agreement between the rail operators. I also heard somewhere that HONAT only covers delays but not cancellation (but I am not completely sure). Thalys is a bit special in terms of customer service: A few years back I heard an angry conversation between Thalys staff and a passenger, where they told him: "It was his decision to travel with them". Or an episode from Paris-North: A family with a stroller is running to the platform. When they are about 10m away Thalys staff roped off the platform and would not let them board.

In Germany, passenger rights would allow you to take another train than the one indicated on you ticket, when a train is cancelled or a delay of more then 20min is to expected at our final destination. You would not need a special endorsement to use another train. But this only covers trains that do not require a reservation. So for a Thalys your would need an endorsement as it requires a reservation.



In this case they would have be required to put you in a hotel. Sometimes vouchers are handed it out or you book a hotel on your own and put in a compensation form later on to get the hotel costs refunded. There is a maximum hotel refund limit (around 80€ I guess). Given that there is not much DB staff in Brussels you have to deal with the SNCB people.

For your Thalys Ticket you can try to get a refund by writing a nice letter to the Passenger Rights Office and State what happened (ICE xx to Brussels was cancelled, next ICE train would result in missed EST, Thalys required you to buy a new ticket), enclose the Thalys-Ticket. You will get an answer in a few weeks and maybe a refund. The address is:


I will be using the Brussels-ICE service (with EST-connections) next month. Let's see which surprises DB and EST (which is much worse than the DB in managing incidents when things go south) have in store

Cheers
Charly

As quoted on the Railteam website:

Hop on the next available train » (HOTNAT) allows travelers to take the next high-speed service leaving from the same station as originally planned when a delay on or cancellation of a preceding Railteam member’s high-speed service prevents them from making their originally-planned connection.* This service is free of charge and is subject to the following conditions : the connection that was missed must be between two high-speed trains of the Railteam Alliance. HOTNAT only applies at the station at which the passenger originally planned to change trains and in cases of train delays and train cancellations. The approval of HOTNAT is subject to the available capacity on board each train. Seats are not guaranteed.

This is as good as formally agreeing that operators will accept other Raiteam tickets. Anyway, I've sent my compensation forms and relevant tickets to Deutsche Bahn (by Air mail, ironically), hopefully they will refund my Thalys but got a bad feeling it could be a round-the-houses situation of DB telling me to speak to Thalys and vice-versa.

 

[duesselmartin]

Blaming the heat for the lack of 406 availability seems silly since the problem persists at least since the expansion of services in december.

 

[ooo]

expansion of services

How often were they before?

 

[k-c-p]

In December 2016 the service was expanded from 4 round trips (4-hourly service) to 6 round trips a day resulting in a 2-hourly service between Frankfurt and Brussels (there are still gaps on certain days).
Current schedule: https://www.bahn.de/p/view/mdb/bahn...6_direktverbindungen_frankfurt_-_bruessel.pdf

In December 2018 the service will be expanded further when a service that currently runs on Friday and Sunday only, will run daily. Additionally, a seasonal round trip service later in the evening is planned during the summer (departure in Brussels at about 20:30, arrival in Brussels 23:30).

 

[BigCj34]

Got a reply from DB stating my case was passed onto the Eurail team, who have wrote back to me to state I am not eligible for compensation because not enough trains in my trip were delayed by 60 mins (only 2 were). This is however about ensuring I could get a train so I would not be stranded in Brussels due to missing the last Eurostar.

Of course this is going to be classic continental customer service, passed around like a hot potato, no-one will be responsible and I will get told I have zero protections because I used an Interrail pass. (OK that's a little unfair as that could quite easily happen in the UK).

 

[Gerald Fiennes]

I think, unfortunately, you are probably right. Chalk the cost up to experience. Thalys has been deemed to be the German equivalent of an 'open access' operator ever since DB sold its holding in them in c.2011 (although supposedly they are going to join in again soon), so their passengers are not afforded much help in Germany. And Thalys won't be much help to you once they have your money. I had something similar happen in 2012, when a DB train between Nuremburg and Wurzburg at 1330 was delayed by c. 40mins, meaning the last connections to London were lost. I was left totally on my own for hotel accommodation in Brussels and DB's Fahrgastrechte team tried to off-load me to ATOC (for some reason) when I wrote to them.
In principle, if the IR pass had a HONAT stamp on it, the thing to do would be to negotiate with the conductor of the Thalys train to Brussels at Cologne station rather than the call centre, but you can see that the Railteam Alliance guidance still permits them to refuse you if the train is 'full', ie. including the tip-up seats as well (this bit did work for me in 2012). On the other hand, ES at Brussels have generally been pretty good about offering later reservations for late inbound connections, particularly from the Netherlands where there also frequent delays.
The best advice is really to leave at least one train early on the Cologne-Brussels section to allow for things like this.
The ICE Class 406s seem to be quite temperamental and I believe most of the incidents cited (eg. diversion via Verviers) are due to problems with the failures of its on-board ERTMS equipment for the Belgian high speed line (which is needed only for the two ERTMS-fitted sections in Belgium). When the equipment doesn't work, sometimes controllers have the train from Germany turn round at Duren/Aachen so that it can make its return journey to Frankfurt. The diversion via Verviers takes c.40mins longer each way and means the risk of delays from Aachen to Frankfurt, depending on network congestion between Brussels Nord and Zuid/Midi. Occasionally, a substitute 406 has been located at Cologne and sent out as a rescue train. Based on all this, you can see why DB insisted that Siemens took responsibility for vehicle acceptance for the new ICE4/X trains: this has proved to be very challenging (I don't think they have even started the process yet for BE), and the trains are c.4years late already. Siemens have had to take a massive loss on the contract.
It's not just the UK where things go wrong with new trains...

 

[Capybara]

HONAT?

 

[MisterT]

Hop On the Next Available Train.

 

[BigCj34]

Hop On the Next Available Train.

Unless you hold an Interrail pass it seems! When I message DB's twitter customer service they keep referring me to the refunds website. Really I should have checked my travel insurance so that it covered delays and cancellations.

 

[Capybara]

Ah yes, of course. How does one acquire one (a HONAT stamp)? Which probably answers the question I asked, but was not answered, earlier in the thread.

 

[MarcVD]

The ICE Class 406s seem to be quite temperamental and I believe most of the incidents cited (eg. diversion via Verviers) are due to problems with the failures of its on-board ERTMS equipment for the Belgian high speed line (which is needed only for the two ERTMS-fitted sections in Belgium).

TBL2 bas been replaced by ERTMS on the High Speed Line Brussels Liège too now.

 

[DEE-DE]

Try contacting the Eisenbahn-Bundesamt which is the German federal regulator responsible for rail transport. They've helped me before where I've had a claim denied due to the regulations being slightly unclear. You might get a response saying they're refunding you out of goodwill as they don't want any clarifying courtcases.

Grab the relevant form linked on this website and send off the complaint (e-mail works, too).

 

[matt]

Ah yes, of course. How does one acquire one (a HONAT stamp)? Which probably answers the question I asked, but was not answered, earlier in the thread.

I got one from the DB ticket office by showing my reservation in Köln. Not sure what I would have got with just an interail and no reservation