Journey on an Advance that can't be completed tonight?

Discussion in 'Fares Advice & Policy' started by EM2, 21 Oct 2011.

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  1. EM2

    EM2 Established Member

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    A colleague has just been presented with the following.
    A customer has an AP ticket London - Bempton, routed EC & Connections.
    The AP reservation is KGX - Doncaster departing KGX 23:30 and the customer was enquiring what time they would reach Bempton.
    I checked Rail Planner at they have to wait at Doncaster for four and a half hours, and get to Bempton tomorrow at 09:07.
    Surely a ticket should not be sold with that kind of 'connection'?
     
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  3. dzug2

    dzug2 Member

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    Such tickets are usually VERY cheap and the itinerary is shown before you commit to buying.

    I'm surprised they actually sell any though.
     
  4. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    Why & how could it be prevented, and what purpose would that serve?

    The customer is made aware of the itinerary at the time of booking. What they do in the mean time is up to them, for example someone could have a friend in Doncaster and stay the night there (they are not compelled to take the first available train on their 'Connection' the next morning).
     
  5. wintonian

    wintonian Established Member

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    Must admit I have considered buying one of these in the past for sometime in the summer when I wish to at my destination early, mind you it would mean early bed time later on day 2 though.
     
  6. EM2

    EM2 Established Member

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    Whilst I agree that itineraries are displayed at booking, it seems to indicate a lack of duty of care to expect that someone may to hang around Doncaster station for that length of time in the very early hours (and don't forget I work in the industry).
    If it was a journey where all legs were reserved, would the route still be offered with such a lengthy connection time?
     
  7. DJ737

    DJ737 Member

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    G'day

    My usual Elsenham to Lamphey has some long overnight connections, the best being 9hr 16m at Carmarthern and it's not even the cheapest available.

    Clunderwen to Narberth has a 10hr 42m connection at Whitland, you can walk between the two stations in about an hour.

    Cheers
    DJ737
    Melbourne, Australia
     
    Last edited: 21 Oct 2011
  8. John @ home

    John @ home Established Member Fares Advisor

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    Yes, and I think it's a good thing that tickets like this are offered. For example, Advance York - Inverness tickets are available on
    All three legs are reservable.

    A passenger may well want to combine this ticket with a hotel room close to the station in Edinburgh.
     
  9. RJ

    RJ Established Member

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    London Midland do a through ticket from London to Brum for the first train of the day that starts at Northampton.
     
  10. bignosemac

    bignosemac Established Member

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    Shorter, but still lengthy connection times are even less practical, leaving you no time for overnight accommodation.

    As an example, would you want to spend nearly 3 hours in Newport on this itinerary?

    Bristol TM 0136
    Newport 0210

    Newport 0452
    Crewe 0722

    Both legs reservable so no option to to take a later service on the second leg. And looking two months in advance the same price as a more agreeable itinerary arriving in Crewe 0113 and only slightly cheaper than other earlier services.

    So, does seem odd to me that a ticket will be sold that ties you to a near 3 hour wait in Newport. Where would you go to keep warm at this time of year?
     
  11. sheff1

    sheff1 Established Member

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    I don't understand your point. No one is forced to buy the ticket so where does a 'duty of care' come from ?

    Some people may be more than happy to partake of some of the notorious Donny nightlife :D
     
  12. EM2

    EM2 Established Member

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    Blimey. I am genuinely surprised at these examples, especially the Newport one...
    I can see the 'overnight accommodation' theory but I must admit, I was always under the impression that an AP was only valid on the date of issue. Looks like I was mistaken.
     
  13. CompactDstrxion

    CompactDstrxion Member

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    I thought you weren't allowed to leave station premises on an AP ticket, as this would constitute a break of journey. That would make these cheap overnight APs rather uncomfortable!
     
  14. EM2

    EM2 Established Member

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    Ah, maybe that was the restriction I was thinking of...
     
  15. Indigo2

    Indigo2 Established Member

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  16. Squaddie

    Squaddie Established Member

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    What if held an Advance ticket that involved, say, a 30-minute connection at Newcastle and I decided to nip out to a nearby supermarket during that 30 minutes? NRCOC condition 16, quoted above, suggests that that would be considered a break of journey even if I were then to continue on the correct booked connection. Is that the case? If so, is that a reasonable restriction?
     
  17. hairyhandedfool

    hairyhandedfool Established Member

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    Are you suggesting that if you enter a contract and don't read it (the itinerary), the party you have a contract with should be responsible for it?

    Or perhaps they should refuse to sell any tickets for journeys on those trains that have a "long" connection time?

    The reality is that a journey that is scheduled to take 9 hrs or more and begins close to midnight is almost certain to have a long wait at some point. A passenger that pays no attention to the timetable at that time of night is not a clever one.

    You can use station facilities (shops in the station for example) but cannot leave the station premises (except as noted in Condition 16). The chances of a member of staff following you around to make sure you adhere is rather small though.
     
  18. wintonian

    wintonian Established Member

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    To be pedantic I would also hope following the directions of a police officer wouldn't be counted as a break of journey, which doesn't seem to be covered under condition 16.
     
  19. hairyhandedfool

    hairyhandedfool Established Member

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    Depends, if we are talking about an emergency situation, I would expect the railway staff to have made such instructions clear either in person or by PA (where available) and thus the police would be enforcing Railway Byelaws 12 and 24. If we are talking about going to a shop outside the station, an officer would have no authority. I'm sure that no member of staff would attempt to stop an officer arresting someone either.
     
  20. dzug2

    dzug2 Member

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    I wonder if in some cases (station closes for the night) you would actually be required to leave the station?
     
  21. wintonian

    wintonian Established Member

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    I think you would with H&S and all that of being locked into a station with no exit and possibly third rail etc. plus I doubt they would trust you not to get board and wreck things.
     
  22. hairyhandedfool

    hairyhandedfool Established Member

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    Yes you would, but then you'd probably be obeying the instructions of a member of staff.
     
  23. DaveNewcastle

    DaveNewcastle Established Member Fares Advisor

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    Tobacco can help.
    If you asked any barrier staff where you could smoke while you waited for your connection, its only reasoanble that they 'instruct' you to leave the premises.

    But to be more practical, most large stations, including Newcastle, have shops, cafes, and a bar within the station premises but on the unrestricted side of the barriers. It would not constitute leaving railway property to be permitted through the barriers to use those facilities (and how far you strayed beyond those facilities would be unknown).
     
  24. wintonian

    wintonian Established Member

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    But wouldn't the station car park/ forecourt count as station facilities anyway, particularly if there are cash machines in the wall or ticket machines outside for example?
     
  25. bignosemac

    bignosemac Established Member

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    Apparently the 'M&S Food' at Milton Keynes Central is not on station premises, despite being on the forecourt and in a building owned by Network Rail!

    At least according to an over-officious London Midland gateline staffer I encountered some months back, who initially refused me access even to the concourse because, in his words, "Breaking a journey means going through the gateline."
     
  26. WelshBluebird

    WelshBluebird Established Member

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    It is so sad that we still have staff who give advice such as that.
    Theres no wonder many people have certain unfavourable views of railway staff when you get staff like that!
    (As usual, my normal explanation applies before I get jumped on - I realise that most staff are fine, indeed the vast majority are. But a sizeable minority really are in the wrong job IMO).
     
  27. Indigo2

    Indigo2 Established Member

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    Sounds just like another instance of poor training to me.
     
  28. Blindtraveler

    Blindtraveler Established Member

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    iv actually done one of these journeys with 3 mates. Got an XC0 AP from Southamton Central to Edinburgh with a gap between 22.45 and, for seasons best known to XCs telysales team 10.03 the next morning, I think due to lack of earlier seats as there was 4 of us and it was definately the same tiket rite through and was dirt cheep. Allowed a travelodge move in brum.
     
  29. DaveNewcastle

    DaveNewcastle Established Member Fares Advisor

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    That's interesting. I'm not as quick as others to reach the conclusion that you had encountered an individual with an excessive zeal for enforcing unwritten rules, it is (in my mind at least) quite conceivable, even likely, that the simple explanation you received had been passed on from colleagues and / or management at the Station.

    I guess we can't find out now, but I would be interested to know where that person on the gateline recalls having read or having been told of that definition of their premises.
     
  30. button_boxer

    button_boxer Established Member

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    Staying in overnight accommodation where a journey cannot be completed in one day is specifically not classed as a break of journey according to the NRCoC. The gist of the rest of this thread being whether you're allowed to leave the station during a journey with a long overnight connection if you do not have any accommodation to stay in...
     
  31. bignosemac

    bignosemac Established Member

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    I should point out that following the initial checking of my ticket (A 'LM Only' Super Off Peak Return) and a polite conversation about what entails a BoJ the gateline staffer was quite happy to defer and let me to go to M&S. Oh, and to sate my need for a nicotine fix!

    Of course, I'm a bit of a fares and restrictions nerd, so was confident with my assertions regarding BoJ. All was done jovially without getting argumentative. That said, a less savvy traveller may have taken the initial statement, "Breaking a journey means going through the gateline" at face value.

    So whilst the staff member was initially (mistakenly) over-officious, perhaps our conversation went some way to helping him understand BoJ.
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    Or a journey where a shorter late night connection precludes having overnight accommodation. I, for one wouldn't spend money on a hotel room for 3 hours in Newport!
     
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