• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Journey on an Advance that can't be completed tonight?

Status
Not open for further replies.

EM2

Established Member
Joined
16 Nov 2008
Messages
7,523
Location
The home of the concrete cow
A colleague has just been presented with the following.
A customer has an AP ticket London - Bempton, routed EC & Connections.
The AP reservation is KGX - Doncaster departing KGX 23:30 and the customer was enquiring what time they would reach Bempton.
I checked Rail Planner at they have to wait at Doncaster for four and a half hours, and get to Bempton tomorrow at 09:07.
Surely a ticket should not be sold with that kind of 'connection'?
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

dzug2

Member
Joined
5 Feb 2011
Messages
867
Such tickets are usually VERY cheap and the itinerary is shown before you commit to buying.

I'm surprised they actually sell any though.
 

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
67,429
Location
Yorkshire
Why & how could it be prevented, and what purpose would that serve?

The customer is made aware of the itinerary at the time of booking. What they do in the mean time is up to them, for example someone could have a friend in Doncaster and stay the night there (they are not compelled to take the first available train on their 'Connection' the next morning).
 

wintonian

Established Member
Joined
15 Jan 2010
Messages
4,889
Location
Hampshire
Must admit I have considered buying one of these in the past for sometime in the summer when I wish to at my destination early, mind you it would mean early bed time later on day 2 though.
 

EM2

Established Member
Joined
16 Nov 2008
Messages
7,523
Location
The home of the concrete cow
Why & how could it be prevented, and what purpose would that serve?

The customer is made aware of the itinerary at the time of booking. What they do in the mean time is up to them, for example someone could have a friend in Doncaster and stay the night there (they are not compelled to take the first available train on their 'Connection' the next morning).

Whilst I agree that itineraries are displayed at booking, it seems to indicate a lack of duty of care to expect that someone may to hang around Doncaster station for that length of time in the very early hours (and don't forget I work in the industry).
If it was a journey where all legs were reserved, would the route still be offered with such a lengthy connection time?
 

DJ737

Member
Joined
15 Nov 2009
Messages
364
Location
Melbourne, Australia
G'day

My usual Elsenham to Lamphey has some long overnight connections, the best being 9hr 16m at Carmarthern and it's not even the cheapest available.

Clunderwen to Narberth has a 10hr 42m connection at Whitland, you can walk between the two stations in about an hour.

Cheers
DJ737
Melbourne, Australia
 
Last edited:

John @ home

Established Member
Joined
1 Mar 2008
Messages
5,148
If it was a journey where all legs were reserved, would the route still be offered with such a lengthy connection time?
Yes, and I think it's a good thing that tickets like this are offered. For example, Advance York - Inverness tickets are available on
Sundays 2054 York - Edinburgh 2347
Mondays 0629 Edinburgh - Perth 0747
Mondays 0804 Perth - Inverness 1029
All three legs are reservable.

A passenger may well want to combine this ticket with a hotel room close to the station in Edinburgh.
 

RJ

Established Member
Joined
25 Jun 2005
Messages
8,383
Location
Back office
London Midland do a through ticket from London to Brum for the first train of the day that starts at Northampton.
 

bnm

Established Member
Joined
12 Oct 2009
Messages
4,996
If it was a journey where all legs were reserved, would the route still be offered with such a lengthy connection time?

Shorter, but still lengthy connection times are even less practical, leaving you no time for overnight accommodation.

As an example, would you want to spend nearly 3 hours in Newport on this itinerary?

Bristol TM 0136
Newport 0210

Newport 0452
Crewe 0722

Both legs reservable so no option to to take a later service on the second leg. And looking two months in advance the same price as a more agreeable itinerary arriving in Crewe 0113 and only slightly cheaper than other earlier services.

So, does seem odd to me that a ticket will be sold that ties you to a near 3 hour wait in Newport. Where would you go to keep warm at this time of year?
 

sheff1

Established Member
Joined
24 Dec 2009
Messages
5,459
Location
Sheffield
Whilst I agree that itineraries are displayed at booking, it seems to indicate a lack of duty of care to expect that someone may to hang around Doncaster station for that length of time in the very early hours (and don't forget I work in the industry).

I don't understand your point. No one is forced to buy the ticket so where does a 'duty of care' come from ?

Some people may be more than happy to partake of some of the notorious Donny nightlife :D
 

EM2

Established Member
Joined
16 Nov 2008
Messages
7,523
Location
The home of the concrete cow
Blimey. I am genuinely surprised at these examples, especially the Newport one...
I can see the 'overnight accommodation' theory but I must admit, I was always under the impression that an AP was only valid on the date of issue. Looks like I was mistaken.
 
Joined
8 Jun 2009
Messages
595
I thought you weren't allowed to leave station premises on an AP ticket, as this would constitute a break of journey. That would make these cheap overnight APs rather uncomfortable!
 

Paul Kelly

Verified Rep - BR Fares
Joined
16 Apr 2010
Messages
4,130
Location
Reading
--
nrcoc condition 16 said:
you will be treated as breaking your journey if you leave a train company’s or rail service company’s stations after you start your journey other than:
(i) to join a train at another station, or
(ii) to stay in overnight accommodation when you cannot reasonably
complete your journey within one day
, or
(iii) to follow any instructions given by a member of a train company’s staff.
--
 

Squaddie

Member
Joined
6 Dec 2009
Messages
1,073
Location
London
What if held an Advance ticket that involved, say, a 30-minute connection at Newcastle and I decided to nip out to a nearby supermarket during that 30 minutes? NRCOC condition 16, quoted above, suggests that that would be considered a break of journey even if I were then to continue on the correct booked connection. Is that the case? If so, is that a reasonable restriction?
 

hairyhandedfool

Established Member
Joined
14 Apr 2008
Messages
8,837
Whilst I agree that itineraries are displayed at booking, it seems to indicate a lack of duty of care to expect that someone may to hang around Doncaster station for that length of time in the very early hours (and don't forget I work in the industry).
If it was a journey where all legs were reserved, would the route still be offered with such a lengthy connection time?

Are you suggesting that if you enter a contract and don't read it (the itinerary), the party you have a contract with should be responsible for it?

Or perhaps they should refuse to sell any tickets for journeys on those trains that have a "long" connection time?

The reality is that a journey that is scheduled to take 9 hrs or more and begins close to midnight is almost certain to have a long wait at some point. A passenger that pays no attention to the timetable at that time of night is not a clever one.

What if held an Advance ticket that involved, say, a 30-minute connection at Newcastle and I decided to nip out to a nearby supermarket during that 30 minutes? NRCOC condition 16, quoted above, suggests that that would be considered a break of journey even if I were then to continue on the correct booked connection. Is that the case? If so, is that a reasonable restriction?

You can use station facilities (shops in the station for example) but cannot leave the station premises (except as noted in Condition 16). The chances of a member of staff following you around to make sure you adhere is rather small though.
 

wintonian

Established Member
Joined
15 Jan 2010
Messages
4,889
Location
Hampshire
Are you suggesting that if you enter a contract and don't read it (the itinerary), the party you have a contract with should be responsible for it?

Or perhaps they should refuse to sell any tickets for journeys on those trains that have a "long" connection time?

The reality is that a journey that is scheduled to take 9 hrs or more and begins close to midnight is almost certain to have a long wait at some point. A passenger that pays no attention to the timetable at that time of night is not a clever one.



You can use station facilities (shops in the station for example) but cannot leave the station premises (except as noted in Condition 16). The chances of a member of staff following you around to make sure you adhere is rather small though.

To be pedantic I would also hope following the directions of a police officer wouldn't be counted as a break of journey, which doesn't seem to be covered under condition 16.
 

hairyhandedfool

Established Member
Joined
14 Apr 2008
Messages
8,837
To be pedantic I would also hope following the directions of a police officer wouldn't be counted as a break of journey, which doesn't seem to be covered under condition 16.

Depends, if we are talking about an emergency situation, I would expect the railway staff to have made such instructions clear either in person or by PA (where available) and thus the police would be enforcing Railway Byelaws 12 and 24. If we are talking about going to a shop outside the station, an officer would have no authority. I'm sure that no member of staff would attempt to stop an officer arresting someone either.
 

dzug2

Member
Joined
5 Feb 2011
Messages
867
I wonder if in some cases (station closes for the night) you would actually be required to leave the station?
 

wintonian

Established Member
Joined
15 Jan 2010
Messages
4,889
Location
Hampshire
I wonder if in some cases (station closes for the night) you would actually be required to leave the station?

I think you would with H&S and all that of being locked into a station with no exit and possibly third rail etc. plus I doubt they would trust you not to get board and wreck things.
 

DaveNewcastle

Established Member
Joined
21 Dec 2007
Messages
7,387
Location
Newcastle (unless I'm out)
Tobacco can help.
If you asked any barrier staff where you could smoke while you waited for your connection, its only reasoanble that they 'instruct' you to leave the premises.

But to be more practical, most large stations, including Newcastle, have shops, cafes, and a bar within the station premises but on the unrestricted side of the barriers. It would not constitute leaving railway property to be permitted through the barriers to use those facilities (and how far you strayed beyond those facilities would be unknown).
 

wintonian

Established Member
Joined
15 Jan 2010
Messages
4,889
Location
Hampshire
Tobacco can help.
If you asked any barrier staff where you could smoke while you waited for your connection, its only reasoanble that they 'instruct' you to leave the premises.

But to be more practical, most large stations, including Newcastle, have shops, cafes, and a bar within the station premises but on the unrestricted side of the barriers. It would not constitute leaving railway property to be permitted through the barriers to use those facilities (and how far you strayed beyond those facilities would be unknown).

But wouldn't the station car park/ forecourt count as station facilities anyway, particularly if there are cash machines in the wall or ticket machines outside for example?
 

bnm

Established Member
Joined
12 Oct 2009
Messages
4,996
Apparently the 'M&S Food' at Milton Keynes Central is not on station premises, despite being on the forecourt and in a building owned by Network Rail!

At least according to an over-officious London Midland gateline staffer I encountered some months back, who initially refused me access even to the concourse because, in his words, "Breaking a journey means going through the gateline."
 

WelshBluebird

Established Member
Joined
14 Jan 2010
Messages
4,923
Apparently the 'M&S Food' at Milton Keynes Central is not on station premises, despite being on the forecourt and in a building owned by Network Rail!

At least according to an over-officious London Midland gateline staffer I encountered some months back, who initially refused me access even to the concourse because, in his words, "Breaking a journey means going through the gateline."

It is so sad that we still have staff who give advice such as that.
Theres no wonder many people have certain unfavourable views of railway staff when you get staff like that!
(As usual, my normal explanation applies before I get jumped on - I realise that most staff are fine, indeed the vast majority are. But a sizeable minority really are in the wrong job IMO).
 

Blindtraveler

Established Member
Joined
28 Feb 2011
Messages
9,600
Location
Nowhere near enough to a Pacer :(
iv actually done one of these journeys with 3 mates. Got an XC0 AP from Southamton Central to Edinburgh with a gap between 22.45 and, for seasons best known to XCs telysales team 10.03 the next morning, I think due to lack of earlier seats as there was 4 of us and it was definately the same tiket rite through and was dirt cheep. Allowed a travelodge move in brum.
 

DaveNewcastle

Established Member
Joined
21 Dec 2007
Messages
7,387
Location
Newcastle (unless I'm out)
Apparently the 'M&S Food' at Milton Keynes Central is not on station premises, despite being on the forecourt and in a building owned by Network Rail!

At least according to an over-officious London Midland gateline staffer I encountered some months back, who initially refused me access even to the concourse because, in his words, "Breaking a journey means going through the gateline."
That's interesting. I'm not as quick as others to reach the conclusion that you had encountered an individual with an excessive zeal for enforcing unwritten rules, it is (in my mind at least) quite conceivable, even likely, that the simple explanation you received had been passed on from colleagues and / or management at the Station.

I guess we can't find out now, but I would be interested to know where that person on the gateline recalls having read or having been told of that definition of their premises.
 

button_boxer

Established Member
Joined
12 Nov 2009
Messages
1,270
Allowed a travelodge move in brum.

Staying in overnight accommodation where a journey cannot be completed in one day is specifically not classed as a break of journey according to the NRCoC. The gist of the rest of this thread being whether you're allowed to leave the station during a journey with a long overnight connection if you do not have any accommodation to stay in...
 

bnm

Established Member
Joined
12 Oct 2009
Messages
4,996
That's interesting. I'm not as quick as others to reach the conclusion that you had encountered an individual with an excessive zeal for enforcing unwritten rules, it is (in my mind at least) quite conceivable, even likely, that the simple explanation you received had been passed on from colleagues and / or management at the Station.

I guess we can't find out now, but I would be interested to know where that person on the gateline recalls having read or having been told of that definition of their premises.

I should point out that following the initial checking of my ticket (A 'LM Only' Super Off Peak Return) and a polite conversation about what entails a BoJ the gateline staffer was quite happy to defer and let me to go to M&S. Oh, and to sate my need for a nicotine fix!

Of course, I'm a bit of a fares and restrictions nerd, so was confident with my assertions regarding BoJ. All was done jovially without getting argumentative. That said, a less savvy traveller may have taken the initial statement, "Breaking a journey means going through the gateline" at face value.

So whilst the staff member was initially (mistakenly) over-officious, perhaps our conversation went some way to helping him understand BoJ.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Staying in overnight accommodation where a journey cannot be completed in one day is specifically not classed as a break of journey according to the NRCoC. The gist of the rest of this thread being whether you're allowed to leave the station during a journey with a long overnight connection if you do not have any accommodation to stay in...

Or a journey where a shorter late night connection precludes having overnight accommodation. I, for one wouldn't spend money on a hotel room for 3 hours in Newport!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top