Journey planner suggests off peak is fine for a "peak service".. is this normal?

[nitten_travell]

Hi all,

I am looking at ticket options for a trip next week and it's thrown up something which to me is a bit odd. We wish to travel from Drem on 18/12/18 at 1735 to Glasgow, returning at about the same time the next day, with a two together card. The Scotrail website suggests an Off Peak Return will do the job for this, total price £32.30. It also suggests taking the 1815 from Edinburgh Waverley to Glasgow Queen Street on 18/12 and the 1730 from Queen Street to Waverley on the 19th.

I am a bit puzzled as I thought that the 1735 from Waverley and the 1730 from Queen Street were services for which a peak ticket is needed (I hope I have the terminology right here...) so how can an off peak ticket be OK here? Is it because the ticket is not to/from Edinburgh but elsewhere?

 

[The_Train]

I'm no ticketing expert but I'm learning from people on here and if I've looked at this right your required ticket comes with restriction 8F which has the following restriction:

'Not valid on trains timed to depart after 04:29 and before 09:16 except valid on the 07:01 service from Stranraer to Ayr.'

Therefore your times of travel are fine on this ticket as there are no restrictions on the evening peak.

I'm sure someone with the required expertise will be along soon to confirm this (or to advise you of correct information if I'm wrong haha)

 

[nitten_travell]

Thank you very much! This sort of information is not given on the ScotRail journey planner/ticket purchase matrix Off Peak link.

ETA: it is a bit naughty of whoever is responsible for the platform information boards to write PEAK TIME SERVICE when clearly some off peak tickets are still valid. I suppose you just have to know how to work the system.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Hi all,

I am looking at ticket options for a trip next week and it's thrown up something which to me is a bit odd. We wish to travel from Drem on 18/12/18 at 1735 to Glasgow, returning at about the same time the next day, with a two together card. The Scotrail website suggests an Off Peak Return will do the job for this, total price £32.30. It also suggests taking the 1815 from Edinburgh Waverley to Glasgow Queen Street on 18/12 and the 1730 from Queen Street to Waverley on the 19th.

I am a bit puzzled as I thought that the 1735 from Waverley and the 1730 from Queen Street were services for which a peak ticket is needed (I hope I have the terminology right here...) so how can an off peak ticket be OK here? Is it because the ticket is not to/from Edinburgh but elsewhere?

Off-Peak Return tickets (the month return kind, not the Day Return kind) are generally regulated fares. This means that, as per Government fares regulations imposed via franchise agreements, they are not allowed to have any evening peak restrictions, other than for starting a journey in a direction away from London, from within the area bounded by Reading, Watford, Luton and Stevenage. So in other words - a regulated Off-Peak Return for travel within Scotland is not permitted to have any evening peak restrictions.

It usually only the Off-Peak Day Returns that could have any such restrictions - as these are not regulated fares and thus Scotrail can set any restrictions they wish, including evening peak restrictions.

The idea of a particular train being 'a peak train' is a massively misleading, and plain wrong, oversimplification of the fares and restrictions system. Individual trains are not 'peak' or 'off-peak' - it is the ticket used that determines whether or not you can take a particular train. So the same train could be 'peak' for one ticket holder, and 'off-peak' for other ticket holders. If they insist on using a description such as that, they should at the very least qualify it by saying something like: "Some Off-Peak Day Single/Return tickets are not valid on this train, e.g. Glasgow to Edinburgh. Please check with staff for further details".

The new printing layout of tickets, which is quite universally rolled out across Scotrail by now, explicitly tells you where you can find out the details of Off-Peak restrictions. It says 'see nationalrail.co.uk/XX for details'. Whilst of course there are other ways of making Off-Peak restrictions work, this is probably one of the 'least worst' ways of making the current system work.

IMO, you are being exceedingly generous with Scotrail in calling the incorrect labelling of 'a peak time train' as just 'a bit naughty' - it may well be said to be a misleading statement that could constitute a criminal offence under Regulation 5 of The Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008 (as it encourages people with Off-Peak tickets not to use the train on fear of being made to pay an upgrade, or to make them pay the upgrade proactively where it is not needed). Sadly, enforcement of the aforesaid Regulations in relation to the rail industry is essentially non-existent, primarily for a number of different political and financial reasons.

 

[nitten_travell]

Dear ForTheLoveOf

Thank you very much for your reply, especially the first two paragraphs which contain information that I did not know. Specifically that rules for day returns (the only type of return between Edinburgh and Glasgow, I think) are decided by the train company but monthly returns are regulated. This now makes sense with the starting station being Drem, it's a month return so is subject to different rules.

I am used only to travelling on day return tickets, which is why I was confused about peak and off-peak from Edinburgh and Glasgow. I've had the misfortune to be on the first "off peak" (excuse the terminology) evening service from Queen Street a few times and it's not a pretty sight. As you say the introduction of a link to the specific restrictions is helpful. The ScotRail website journey planner didn't have this link (not helpful!).

 

[Paul Kelly]

Off-Peak Return tickets (the month return kind, not the Day Return kind) are almost universally regulated fares.

Depends on what you mean by "almost universally" but I don't think this is true. It is only the Off-Peak Returns that were Savers at the time of privatisation that are regulated. In the South east of England, many Off-Peak returns (e.g. Oxford to London Terminals) used to be other ticket types such as Network Away Break and to the best of my knowledge are not regulated.

 

[kieron]

While it's generally true, you shouldn't assume that an off peak return for a route outside the southeast doesn't have an evening peak restriction.

For instance, an off peak return between Dunkeld & Birnam (north of Perth) and Alexandra Parade (in Glasgow) has an H1 restriction, which includes the following:

Passengers are not permitted to join the following at Glasgow Queen Street or Central, Edinburgh or Haymarket:
any service departing after 16:42 and before 18:11, except the 17:57 Edinburgh to Glasgow via Shotts;
the 18:15 Edinburgh (18:21 Haymarket) to Glasgow Queen Street service;
the 18:15 Glasgow Queen Street to Edinburgh service;
the 18:30 Edinburgh (18:34 Haymarket) to Aberdeen service.

The Tweedbank-Shotts off peak return uses the same restriction code.

While this is probably a mistake, Scotrail haven't broken any agreements by doing this (that I know of) as it's not a regulated fare.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Quick clarification - regulated SVRs (Off Peak Returns) northbound from Milton Keynes Central do *not* have evening peak restrictions, nor do those from any station where you would board the Virgin train there. The restrictions apply only from Euston and Watford Junction.