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Jubilee line extension

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Taunton

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It would be very interesting to see the TfL modelling of what is going to happen to loads on lines where Crossrail is going to come along in the next year or two. They must have done it but I don't recall it being available. The east end of the Jubilee seems to have multiple different flows which will transfer to Crossrail, but it will come along with the current major increase in Canary Wharf accommodation, both offices and residential.

The various suggestions for south bank extensions beyond North Greenwich do not recognise that the Jubilee under the river there and onward is already notably overloaded and has no capability to have trains diverted elsewhere. I don't think there's another Underground line which carries standing loads right to its end like the Jubilee does to Stratford.
 
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Busaholic

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It would be very interesting to see the TfL modelling of what is going to happen to loads on lines where Crossrail is going to come along in the next year or two. They must have done it but I don't recall it being available. The east end of the Jubilee seems to have multiple different flows which will transfer to Crossrail, but it will come along with the current major increase in Canary Wharf accommodation, both offices and residential.

The various suggestions for south bank extensions beyond North Greenwich do not recognise that the Jubilee under the river there and onward is already notably overloaded and has no capability to have trains diverted elsewhere. I don't think there's another Underground line which carries standing loads right to its end like the Jubilee does to Stratford.

It's probably guesswork what's going to happen post-Crossrail to loads on other lines: so many permutations, fare zones to consider, how people's minds work, etc, and I suspect it'll be 'suck it and see'. There'll be the initial curiousity about Crossrail, of course, particularly from South of the Thames, but some of these passengers might revert to former routes if their expectations are not met.

On your second para Brixton can and does produce standing loads on occasion, although admittedly not to the same extent as Stratford.
 

LU_timetabler

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Ironically, Crossrail will likely reduce traffic on the Bakerloo line, as Paddington to Oxford Circus accounts for a significant proportion of its loading. I know Crossrail won't go to Oxford Circus, but it will be only 1 stop up the line from it on the Central, and I've no idea how many alighting Bakerloo at Oxford Circus are changing lines, rather than exiting, probably quite a few going to the Central. Will at least please people trying to board Bakerloo at Marylebone.
 

SpacePhoenix

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Is there any station on the Jubilee where any possible future platform extensions (I know it'll probably never happen due to the cost) would be impossible due to something (building foundations, other tunnels, etc) being in the way?
 

Mikey C

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Ironically, Crossrail will likely reduce traffic on the Bakerloo line, as Paddington to Oxford Circus accounts for a significant proportion of its loading. I know Crossrail won't go to Oxford Circus, but it will be only 1 stop up the line from it on the Central, and I've no idea how many alighting Bakerloo at Oxford Circus are changing lines, rather than exiting, probably quite a few going to the Central. Will at least please people trying to board Bakerloo at Marylebone.

I imagine some people who walk from Marylebone to Baker Street because it's too crowded may use the Bakerloo Line at Marylebone more
 

swt_passenger

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Ironically, Crossrail will likely reduce traffic on the Bakerloo line, as Paddington to Oxford Circus accounts for a significant proportion of its loading. I know Crossrail won't go to Oxford Circus, but it will be only 1 stop up the line from it on the Central, and I've no idea how many alighting Bakerloo at Oxford Circus are changing lines, rather than exiting, probably quite a few going to the Central. Will at least please people trying to board Bakerloo at Marylebone.

I think they are hoping that people won't transfer from Crossrail onto the Central for one stop to exit the tube at Oxford Circus because thats what they've always done; because the stations either side of Oxford Circus have secondary entrances that help fill in the gaps. Not everyone who reaches street level at the current station actually needs to be there, so the Dean St and Hanover Square entrances ought to spread the flows across the area.
 

bramling

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Is there any station on the Jubilee where any possible future platform extensions (I know it'll probably never happen due to the cost) would be impossible due to something (building foundations, other tunnels, etc) being in the way?

I suspect there could be some issues with ventilation tunnels at some of the extension stations, particularly the non-box ones (Westminster to Bermondsey). There are ventilation tunnels/shafts leading off from the running tunnels just off the end of each platform. North Greenwich could be a challenge to keep the existing track layout.

I agree the chance of it happening is pretty close to zero. The amount of work and cost would be absolutely astronomical. Every platform, reversing berth and stabling berth would require work, in many cases extensive. Stratford Market Depot is already rather cramped and the site can't be readily expanded.

With hindsight, the line is lucky to have the length trains it already has. The 1930s platforms at Baker St, St John's Wood and Swiss Cottage could very easily have been built to the same length as a 7-car Bakerloo platform - at the time the future wouldn't have been foreseen. Likewise, the same could have happened with the 1970s platforms, especially had the earlier platforms been built that way. One wonders would have been the chance of ten platforms being lengthened at the time of the JLE being built?...
 
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D365

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Is there any station on the Jubilee where any possible future platform extensions (I know it'll probably never happen due to the cost) would be impossible due to something (building foundations, other tunnels, etc) being in the way?

So if you're asking if money were no object... anything would be possible.
 

317 forever

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It would be great to see the Jubilee Line extended over the Central Line, London Overground GOBLIN and London Overground London Liverpool Street - Chingford Line to Walthamstow Central!
 

Ianno87

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It would be great to see the Jubilee Line extended over the Central Line, London Overground GOBLIN and London Overground London Liverpool Street - Chingford Line to Walthamstow Central!
You appear to be doing an engineering feasibility study by looking at a tube map....
 

Via Bank

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I'm not sure what the value of extending to Walthamstow would be other than making local travel between Walthamstow and Stratford easier - something that would be much more sensibly achieved by bus priority measures, improved walking and cycling routes in the area (which are forthcoming anyway) and maybe a DLR extension.

You may get some redundancy at Walthamstow if the Victoria line goes down, but I’m not sure it’s worth pax from Stratford being unable to board trains.
 

PeterC

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I'm not sure what the value of extending to Walthamstow would be other than making local travel between Walthamstow and Stratford easier - something that would be much more sensibly achieved by bus priority measures, improved walking and cycling routes in the area (which are forthcoming anyway) and maybe a DLR extension.

You may get some redundancy at Walthamstow if the Victoria line goes down, but I’m not sure it’s worth pax from Stratford being unable to board trains.
Bus priority? I have heard comments by locals that the Waltham Forest approach to cycling priority is actively anti bus user.
 

Mojo

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Travelling from Walthamstow to Stratford is a bit of a pain, I tend to find the easiest way is to catch the bus to Leyton LU station and then catch the Central line one stop.[1] However buses in London nowdays are so painfully slow that the journey is one I actively try to avoid doing (although for a leisure journey it's a pleasant walk on a Sunday afternoon along the Lea Navigation from Walthamstow to the Olympic Park if you have a few hours spare). I'm struggling to picture exactly how what @317 forever is proposing would work though; the closest place to Stratford the Goblin passes is probably at Forest Gate (Wanstead Park) or where it crosses the Central line tracks by Leytonstone. Plus of course that means that what is probably the most useful and vital part of the Goblin - fast and direct access from North to East London - is taken away.

Bus priority? I have heard comments by locals that the Waltham Forest approach to cycling priority is actively anti bus user.
Thanks to the closure of so many of the roads, much of the area such as Walthamstow Village is significantly more pleasant than before, it makes the area so much more liveable as well as creating useable public space.

[1]I suppose one other option is Victoria line and then the train from Tottenham Hale although it isn't frequent and would cost more money, plus most people won't consider it as the line isn't on the Tube map.
 

sjoh

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Bus priority? I have heard comments by locals that the Waltham Forest approach to cycling priority is actively anti bus user.

Very cynical comments. The borough has ploughed money into bus lanes and priority measures. The cycle priority measures compliment them if anything. I cannot think of any instances in the borough where the mini-holland project has had a particularly averse affect on bus users - I would be v. interested to hear of any.
 

duncanp

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Very cynical comments. The borough has ploughed money into bus lanes and priority measures. The cycle priority measures compliment them if anything. I cannot think of any instances in the borough where the mini-holland project has had a particularly averse affect on bus users - I would be v. interested to hear of any.

Several bus routes in Waltham Forest have had their frequency reduced and suffered delays during the construction work associated with the mini holland project, the 158 being one example. Others are where bus stops are moved to accomdate the bike lanes,such as outside Blackhorse Road station, where the stop for the Southbound 158 is further away instead of being right opposite the station.
 

sjoh

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That's a very short termist attitude I think. With the exception of the stop at blackhorse road being moved (it was in a bloody nightmare position traffic wise anyway) I can't think of any permanent negative effects.
 

Be3G

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Travelling from Walthamstow to Stratford is a bit of a pain, I tend to find the easiest way is to catch the bus to Leyton LU station and then catch the Central line one stop.

[…}

I suppose one other option is Victoria line and then the train from Tottenham Hale although it isn't frequent and would cost more money, plus most people won't consider it as the line isn't on the Tube map.

Walthamstow to Stratford is a painful journey I've had to make a fair few times too. Via Tottenham is probably my preferred route but as you say the service is infrequent, although I suppose STAR will eventually improve that. In the meantime, the Overground via the two Hackneys can be quite a quick journey when the connections are good.
 

Busaholic

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Extending the Victoria Line to Stratford would make slightly less worse sense than extending the Jubilee to Walthamstow imo, but both are fairly crazy. A stop at Whipps Cross for the hospital would be a bonus.
 

jopsuk

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for Walthamstow-Stratford, a better plan might be Overground. Reinstate the Hall Farm Curve. Maybe even add a station at Ruckholt Road, the North Circular and Chingford Hatch- make it a proper local metro
 

Busaholic

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for Walthamstow-Stratford, a better plan might be Overground. Reinstate the Hall Farm Curve. Maybe even add a station at Ruckholt Road, the North Circular and Chingford Hatch- make it a proper local metro

On paper, yes, far more sensible, but what level of service could be operated?
 

class387

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Extending the Victoria Line to Stratford would make slightly less worse sense than extending the Jubilee to Walthamstow imo, but both are fairly crazy. A stop at Whipps Cross for the hospital would be a bonus.
I suggested this in Post #14, but apparently the Victoria Line is too overcrowded to cope with it.
 

Busaholic

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I suggested this in Post #14, but apparently the Victoria Line is too overcrowded to cope with it.

Please note that my suggestion was not entirely serious! Having said that, assuming that passengers in peak hours starting from Stratford were in the main not intending to go beyond Tottenham Hale/Seven Sisters, would there be that degree of overcrowding? Also, the main flow would be into Stratford a.m., the reverse p.m. so those would be counted as contraflow. I'm beginning to think it's not so bad a proposal after all!
 

class387

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I would like to see it happen. I don't actually think Stratford commuters would use it to go into London, but the advantage for local journeys and the hospital would be immense.
 

rebmcr

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Stratford - Highbury&Islington would probably not be a popular journey on the Victoria line, nor anywhere south of that.

Stratford - Finsbury Park, however, would probably highly nobble the existing flows.
 

DynamicSpirit

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Please note that my suggestion was not entirely serious! Having said that, assuming that passengers in peak hours starting from Stratford were in the main not intending to go beyond Tottenham Hale/Seven Sisters, would there be that degree of overcrowding? Also, the main flow would be into Stratford a.m., the reverse p.m. so those would be counted as contraflow. I'm beginning to think it's not so bad a proposal after all!

That would be my sense as well.

I'm unsure about the argument about the Victoria line being too overcrowded. On the one hand, I agree with you that basically, if you did extend the Victoria Line to Stratford, that's unlikely to add more than a tiny number of passengers West of Finsbury Park, because people at Stratford (and, say, Leyton/Leytonstone High Road, if stations were provided there) will have much better ways to get into central London. But on the other hand, I had the pleasure of using the Victoria Line at Finsbury Park (southbound) yesterday: The queue of passengers on the platform was such that I only managed to get on the 3rd train - despite a frequency where one train enters the station basically almost as soon as the previous one has left. Looks to me like there's no scope for adding any more passengers west of Finsbury Park in the peaks.

On the other hand (again), I'd have thought that if you did extend the Victoria Line to Stratford, there'd be an extra beneficial effect, that some people at Walthamstow who currently use the Victoria line via Finsbury Park would instead travel to central London via Stratford (thence Jubilee/Crossrail or Central line, depending on their actual destination). That could actually ease some of the current pressure on the Victoria line! In effect, it would mean that the Victoria line would get to share some of the benefit of Crossrail taking passengers off other lines.
 
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