Jump off early in Bedford?

[svt]

I have already booked a train from nottingham to london st pancras (std advance young persons) on sat 13th June, but now need to go to cambridge instead. Due to the engineering works, the train will stop in bedford, from where i can get a bus to cambridge and save some time and a few quid to boot, compared to coming back to london and then going up to cambridge.

My questions are:
1)I believe i need to buy a ticket to entitle me to get off in bedford, as i am not allowed to break my journey. Is this true?

2) To comply with all the regulations, must I buy a ticket from nottingham to bedford, or can i just buy a single ticket from wellingborough to bedford before boarding in nottingham? (nb w'boro is the stop before bedford, and the train does actually stop)

3) I have a friend traveliing with me who wants to just get off in bedford without buying another ticket. Are there automatic ticket gates at bedford? (so if he hopped off, would anyone know?) And what fine would he be liable to pay?

This is my first post - ive searched around a bit and couldnt find anything specific enough, particularly for Q3. Also, the ticket from nottingham to london was so cheap it would cost more to exchange it than to buy a new ticket. Thanks

 

[clagmonster]

A break of journey is not valid on advance tickets. The appropriate excess to allow the break of journey would be a £10 admin fee plus the difference between the fare you paid and the cheapest Nottingham-London ticket which allows break of journey. With a yound persons railcard, this would be the supersaer single priced at £35.
Looking at the NatEx site, I see that there are advance singles starting at £10.55 on that day, so I would advise you to get one of those if you definately know which train you will be travelling on. Note that on some trains the first class fare is cheaper than second class.

 

[dan_atki]

My questions are:
1)I believe i need to buy a ticket to entitle me to get off in bedford, as i am not allowed to break my journey. Is this true?

Indeed, advance tickets do not allow break of journey.

2) To comply with all the regulations, must I buy a ticket from nottingham to bedford, or can i just buy a single ticket from wellingborough to bedford before boarding in nottingham? (nb w'boro is the stop before bedford, and the train does actually stop)

Strictly speaking, a ticket from Nottingham to Bedford is required for this instance - your advance ticket would be rendered useless by the break of journey.

3) I have a friend traveliing with me who wants to just get off in bedford without buying another ticket. Are there automatic ticket gates at bedford? (so if he hopped off, would anyone know?) And what fine would he be liable to pay?

Yes, ticket barriers are in operation in Bedford. Your friend would be liable to pay a penalty fare and may be deemed by the staff on the barrier to be 'fare dodging' (which could lead to prosecution) for not having a valid ticket to get off the train there.

 

[bengolding]

Yes, there are automated ticket gates at Bedford and your AP ticket to St Pancras won't open them as no break of journey is permitted unless for changing trains. I believe, terminating short is not allowed on a AP ticket. You can obviously risk that at your peril. The chances of the guard recalling your ticket was to St Pancras but seeing you alight at Bedford and so preventing you from doing so is virtually zero, but do you really want to play the system for your own gain?

 

[svt]

What if he was to buy a ticket from wellingborough to bedford to get through the barrier at bedford? Clearly an automatic barrier wont know where he's come from - the only risk then is of the guard on the train recalling that his ticket was to london not bedford. And then he'd be liable for for the journey from nottingham to wellingborough (and the 1st drinks in cambridge he did it!)

 

[clagmonster]

Legally he must either buy a new ticket or excess his original ticket. If he buys a Wellingborough-Bedford ticket then he would be breaking his Nottingham-St Pancras journey at one of Wellingborough or Bedford, either way it's not allowed.
Just one point, Dan said that you would be liable for a penalty fare at Bedford with the advance ticket, is that actually the case when coming off an MML service, as only Thameslink operate penalty fares. The only reason that I can think that this wouldn't be the case is if Bedford station is a compulsory ticket area, but I can't find details of such things on the FCC site.

 

[glynn80]

Yes, ticket barriers are in operation in Bedford. Your friend would be liable to pay a penalty fare and may be deemed by the staff on the barrier to be 'fare dodging' (which could lead to prosecution) for not having a valid ticket to get off the train there.

The OP and his friend would not be liable for a penalty fare because they started their journey at Nottingham which is not covered by a penalty fares scheme.

They would however be liable for an excess fare for the difference in price between the ticket held and the cheapest ticket that were available for immediate travel that would entitle them to break that journey.

Just as a side note the FRPP does mention that a customer must pay an excess when breaking AND then resuming their journey. It does this more than once when talking about the excess fares charged when break of journey is not permitted, so in my interpretation if the OP and his friend did not wish to continue on to St Pancras at any later time with the tickets held, they would not be charged any extra.

In practice however I would not advise the OP to take such a strategy as I have heard many stories of customers being charged in this scenario. It is not so clear cut as for me to be 100% certain to advise you to take such action and it could end up with you being charged way in excess of what you could have if you purchased a new ticket at this stage (£10.55 quoted above).

 

[tony_mac]

I have previously got off early on advance tickets (without knowing it wasn't allowed), on one occasion it worked through the barriers, and on one other occassion it didn't, but the gate staff let me through without even querying it.


I suppose that if you had a ticket from London back to Bedford, you could get off at Bedford and argue that it was allowed - but that is really stretching any possible interpretation of the rules!

The rules are:-
'You may use two or more tickets for one journey as long as together they cover the entire journey and one of the following applies:-
the train you are in calls at the station where you change from one ticket to
another'

They do cover the entire journey, and the train you are in does call at the station, although you aren't actually in it at the time it calls there. Yes, I know that is tenuous!

Of course, you would just use the ticket from London at the barrier anyway, so they won't query it!

 

[dan_atki]

The OP and his friend would not be liable for a penalty fare because they started their journey at Nottingham which is not covered by a penalty fares scheme.

Fair point and one I didn't think of - thinking instead about an over-zealous member of staff. Out of interest though, how many people do check that the origin of the journey is (not) a PF station before issuing the PF?

What if he was to buy a ticket from wellingborough to bedford to get through the barrier at bedford? Clearly an automatic barrier wont know where he's come from - the only risk then is of the guard on the train recalling that his ticket was to london not bedford. And then he'd be liable for for the journey from nottingham to wellingborough (and the 1st drinks in cambridge he did it!)

It would seem that you are seeking advice to break your journey on an advance ticket whilst not paying the correct fare to do so. This forum isn't the place to do such things. Sure, we'll help you find the cheapest solution which satisfies all of the relevant rules but we won't condone things that are not valid such as that.

 

[Mojo]

Fair point and one I didn't think of - thinking instead about an over-zealous member of staff. Out of interest though, how many people do check that the origin of the journey is (not) a PF station before issuing the PF?

Also, what about travelling between two non-Compulsory Ticket Area stations where there are multiple TOCs, one "offering" penalty fares and the other not.

 

[clagmonster]

The conditions of advance tickets state the following:
"Break of journey
You may not start, break and resume, or end your journey at any intermediate station except to change to/from connecting trains as shown on the ticket(s) or other valid travel itinerary."
This implies to me that there must be some excess charged for breaking earlier, and the only excess I have seen mentioned anywhere for anything like this is the £10 plus excess up to the cheapest walk up ticket. The only other alternative I can see is full fare as if no ticket were held, standard open single Nottingham to Bedford would cost £41.50.

 

[Tom C]

Fair point and one I didn't think of - thinking instead about an over-zealous member of staff. Out of interest though, how many people do check that the origin of the journey is (not) a PF station before issuing the PF?

It would highly depend on the circumstances.

If a Penalty Fare is issued ON THE TRAIN then it would only be issued from the start of the journey ON THAT TRAIN. For example if somebody came from Nottingham, changed onto a FCC train at Bedford and was travelling through to St Pancras then the Penalty Fare would be issued from Bedford and not Nottingham. The PF rules state the following.......

An authorised collector must not charge a penalty fare under rule 6.2 if any of the following circumstances applied at the
station where the person joined the relevant train.

Meaning that changing trains from a Non PF station does NOT make you exempt from a Penalty Fare....

The instruction to authorised collectors reads as follows........

Interchange.A passenger who changes onto a penalty fares train at a penalty fares station may normally be charged a penalty fare if ticket facilities were available at the interchange station and warning notices were displayed where they could be seen by anyone changing onto the penalty fares train. However, under condition 7 of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage, the full normal range of tickets must be made available to any passenger who started their journey at a station where no ticket facilities were available. In these circumstances, a passenger should not be expected to buy a ticket at the interchange station if they do not have enough time to do so without missing their connection. If it is not possible to check whether or not ticket facilities were available at the station where the passenger started their journey (which may be a station run by a different train company), a penalty fare should not be charged.

Meaning if you have a tight connection then you are unlikely to be issued with a PF, if you have more time then be very careful as you are not exempt from a PF and may well be charged with one. Staff will normally have access to a phone to call stations to check availability of booking offices .

On the gatelines, staff would be aware of locations which are on other TOC's. With regards to Bedford you would know about the Three Counties line to Bletchley and also MML stations.

Copies of the PF rules 2002 are available at booking offices (more than likely those which are within a PF area)

 

[glynn80]

Interchange.A passenger who changes onto a penalty fares train at a penalty fares station may normally be charged a penalty fare if ticket facilities were available at the interchange station and warning notices were displayed where they could be seen by anyone changing onto the penalty fares train. However, under condition 7 of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage, the full normal range of tickets must be made available to any passenger who started their journey at a station where no ticket facilities were available. In these circumstances, a passenger should not be expected to buy a ticket at the interchange station if they do not have enough time to do so without missing their connection. If it is not possible to check whether or not ticket facilities were available at the station where the passenger started their journey (which may be a station run by a different train company), a penalty fare should not be charged.

I have been looking for this information for a while now actually.

Is this located in an internal FCC document or is it in the railway employee/public domain?