Just to be clear: which reopenings are the most viable?

[Harbornite]

Caernarfon to Bangor is arguably viable. The fact that the trackbed between Dinas and Caernarfon is now used by the Welsh Highland Railway makes the rest a bit less viable, in my eye.

Good point, I didn't take that into account. Either way, I think that a good proportion of the trackbed north of Caernarvon is clear.

 

[swt_passenger]

Here it is: http://www.railengineer.uk/2016/04/22/after-borders-what-next/

Here's a direct link to the ATOC report that is the source of much mentioned in that article:

In particular, this report has focused on schemes which could be delivered relatively quickly, through short links to (or new stations on) existing lines, and by making use of freight lines (current or recently closed) as well as railway land left by the line closures and capacity reductions of the 1960s and 70s.

Many past studies have looked at re-opening old railways, but this one looks first at the market, not the map...

http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/files/publicationsdocuments/ConnectingCommunitiesReport_S10.pdf

 

[70014IronDuke]

Here it is: http://www.railengineer.uk/2016/04/22/after-borders-what-next/

Before I click on this, I need some guidance.

Is this the definitive, "just to be clear" list of economically realistic re-openings, or the mother-of-all, trainspotters'-dreams/off-the-wall/totally bonkers list of re-openings, please?

 

[backontrack]

It's a list of economically possible ones.

 

[kevconnor]

The Rail Engineer references a desire for Matlock to Buxton to be reopened but says it hasn't had a BCR, I thought one was completed about 10 years ago by Derbyshire CC which said the BCR was low but the track bed should still be preserved from development.

 

[clc]

How about the Botanics line in Glasgow? The tunnels are intact and the council is safeguarding land at the site of the old Kelvinbridge station. However there is a major problem in that they allowed flats to be built on the trackbed in Kirklee near the tunnel portal. Reopening as far as Maryhill would incur CPO costs running to many millions. They could avoid that by terminating the line at Botanic Gardens but I'm not sure if the business case would stack up with just 2 stations.

Also, it wouldn't require additional capacity at Central as a 4tph service could be created by extending Shotts and Whifflet services once these are diverted through the low level line.

There would be no impact on the congested Partick-Hyndland section and no longer any need to build a turn back at Finnieston.

It would also release 4tph capacity at Central High Level.

It would be extremely useful to link the extensive south Glasgow suburban network to the West End, via a change at Central. Kelvinbridge would serve the University but perhaps an additional cut and cover station could be built on the southern edge of Kelvingrove Park to serve the expanding campus which will eventually encompass the Western Infirmary site. The new station would also serve Finnieston and the Museums.

No studies have been undertaken as far as I'm aware, but reopening the Botanics line does get mentioned in the STPR as a possible component of interventions to increase terminal capacity in Glasgow, so it's not out of the question by any means.

 

[Southsider]

How about the Botanics line in Glasgow? The tunnels are intact and the council is safeguarding land at the site of the old Kelvinbridge station. However there is a major problem in that they allowed flats to be built on the trackbed in Kirklee near the tunnel portal. Reopening as far as Maryhill would incur CPO costs running to many millions. They could avoid that by terminating the line at Botanic Gardens but I'm not sure if the business case would stack up with just 2 stations.

I've often wondered about that but one problem I see would be that it replicates the, in my mind, only useful part of the underground system. I know it holds 'iconic' status but it is a relic of how Glasgow used to be - close it and open the Botanic line. This would eliminate significant cost and give a more integrated network. Match days at Ibrox could be catered for by a halt (if that's the right term) on the Paisley line just before Broomloan Road if need be.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Agree. It doesn't fulfil the needs that its campaigners will claim it does. If the City Union Line wasn't already there, I doubt anyone would suggest that this is a viable route.



Don't be so sure. There's lots of support for it. I'm not quite sure why, but there is. And plenty of politicians support the idea. It could very well happen, although I think there's much better things to spend money on. Like actually solving the problems that Crossrail will fail to solve.

I will spare you my usual anti-Crossrail rant. For now.

I believe that in the past there were plans to insert a west facing junction on the City Union Line in the High Street area (St John's Curve?) but they were never implemented. Presumably the thinking was that as the city gravitated westward there would be sufficient passenger traffic to support it. Many, many years since I heard this so could be completely wrong - can anyone shed any light?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Think you're probably right on Holmfirth, buses are slow out to Holmfirth, there are no express services, except the x11 in the morning and it would give the intermediate stations unto Brockholes another service, instead of the lamentable one an hour.

On Horbury/Ossett, I passed Healy Mills yesterday on the Wakefield service and i notice further demolition work had been carried out as well as track lifting. do you know what is happening? Has it been sold for housing? If so, a station there would be a good idea.

Again, not sure what the hold up with Elland is, is there any news on this? it's been in the pipeline, it was put forward for further exploration but nothing else concrete has been heard since. To me this is a no brainer and really should have been opened when Brighouse opened in 2000.

The Healey Mills site is slowly being cleared but as it is a flood plain for the Calder, housing is unlikely. Returning it to nature would be more likely as nature has already claimed a fair chunk of it. A basic station with an island platform accessed by a ramp from the main Huddersfield to Wakefield road would be ideal to serve Horbury, Horbury Bridge, and Ossett. Couple that with the Horbury curve reopening and a large car park built, and Robert is your mother's brother...

Elland was planned to open with Brighouse but the funding ran out. Since then it's fallen down Metro's priority list for a number of reasons, not least a dispute over the site and a less-favourable business case than other openings such as Glasshoughton and the Aire Valley pair.

 

[AndyHudds]

The Healey Mills site is slowly being cleared but as it is a flood plain for the Calder, housing is unlikely. Returning it to nature would be more likely as nature has already claimed a fair chunk of it. A basic station with an island platform accessed by a ramp from the main Huddersfield to Wakefield road would be ideal to serve Horbury, Horbury Bridge, and Ossett. Couple that with the Horbury curve reopening and a large car park built, and Robert is your mother's brother...

Elland was planned to open with Brighouse but the funding ran out. Since then it's fallen down Metro's priority list for a number of reasons, not least a dispute over the site and a less-favourable business case than other openings such as Glasshoughton and the Aire Valley pair.

Seems a shame waste the land that could be used for redevelopment, has the yard ever flooded before?

As for Elland, I don't really rate Metro if I'm honest, they struggle to get the info right on the timetables at stops so getting stations and other major projects off the ground or they pick the wrong major scheme ie trolley buses. Every other big city gets trams and they want trolley buses in Leeds, ludicrous.

To be fair, Elland has everything going for it, just in the fact that every major town and in West Yorkshire plus Manchester and London would be accessible with no changes, that on its own makes the station an attractive proposition for the people of Elland. I know you can't have the 'build it and they will come' attitude but I do think you could have a little bit of that here just on the strength of trains going to where people want to go.

As for the Horbury curve, this could be tied in with the re-opening of the Spen line, another area with no rail head, Cleckheaton and Heckmondwike, in the Huddersfield and Wakefield direction would give Bradford access to South Yorkshire and the East Midlands without the need for a change at Leeds. I wouldn't trust Metro getting any of that to happen though.

 

[Western Lord]

Good point, I didn't take that into account. Either way, I think that a good proportion of the trackbed north of Caernarvon is clear.

Caernarfon station site is built on and much of the trackbed has been swallowed up by road improvements.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

There was a thread on Healey Mills a few weeks ago discussing the demolition and lifting, and of course the flooding (including photos of those demic 56s marooned in a brown lake!).

I won't go into a long rant about Metro, but I don't blame them for Leeds Tram getting canned, and at least trolleybuses are better than guideways...

I'm not sure there's a case for Spen Valley reopening, as it doesn't go to places people need to get to (Wakefield and Bradford as opposed to Leeds) which is one of the reasons it closed. To get Cleck and Heck back on the network the "new" line would have a better business case in terms of projected use, if only it hadn't been obliterated!

 

[AndyHudds]

There was a thread on Healey Mills a few weeks ago discussing the demolition and lifting, and of course the flooding (including photos of those demic 56s marooned in a brown lake!).

I won't go into a long rant about Metro, but I don't blame them for Leeds Tram getting canned, and at least trolleybuses are better than guideways...

I'm not sure there's a case for Spen Valley reopening, as it doesn't go to places people need to get to (Wakefield and Bradford as opposed to Leeds) which is one of the reasons it closed. To get Cleck and Heck back on the network the "new" line would have a better business case in terms of projected use, if only it hadn't been obliterated!

Well no, they can't really be blamed for the canning of the tram scheme but the trolley bus scheme was a crap idea, just seemed like 'we can't have trams, so we'll pick trolley buses just to have something' to me.

The Leeds new line has been totally obliterated as you rightly say and there is no chance of that opening ever again. On the current Spen formation, it is intact mainly but there is plenty of room at Ravensthorpe to send it in the direction of Leeds, Huddersfield and Wakefield but it would be costly I guess and the business case probably couldn't support it.

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

Would Immingham have a BCR over 1?

 

[TBY-Paul]

Are BCR's set or can they change over time?

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

Are BCR's set or can they change over time?

They most change. The cost of building a railway can rise and fall. And the amount of benefit can also change.

 

[lejog]

Seems a shame waste the land that could be used for redevelopment, has the yard ever flooded before?

Indeed.

Is the Pope a Catholic? Who in their right mind would buy a house on land that has flooded 3 times in seven years?

No pictures of the latest floods but these two pages shows the scene in January 2008 which was a very minor flood indeed compared with those of 2012 and 2015.

http://www.phantasrail.co.uk/healey_mills_08.htm

http://www.phantasrail.co.uk/healey_mills_(2)_08.htm





Edit: Despite this it seems that Wakefield Council's Planning Policy at least for now is to encourage the reuse of this land as freight sidings.

As for Elland, I don't really rate Metro if I'm honest, they struggle to get the info right on the timetables at stops so getting stations and other major projects off the ground or they pick the wrong major scheme ie trolley buses. Every other big city gets trams and they want trolley buses in Leeds, ludicrous.

To be fair, Elland has everything going for it, just in the fact that every major town and in West Yorkshire plus Manchester and London would be accessible with no changes, that on its own makes the station an attractive proposition for the people of Elland. I know you can't have the 'build it and they will come' attitude but I do think you could have a little bit of that here just on the strength of trains going to where people want to go.

Elland was supposedly ready to go through the GRIP process again at the start of 2015. However guess what, the previous preferred site at Lowfields is also on the Calder flood plain and has also flooded in recent years, which is why it was never used by the surrounding business park. I heard some talk of investigating an alternative site at Greetland, but haven't heard anything recently.

Its also rumoured the Hendy review has pushed any Metro/WYCTA funded work back to CP6.

 

[Lankyline]

Given the title of the thread, viable must also include strategic re-openings, ie those lines that may have a low or virtually zero BCR and in normal circumstances would probably never see the light of day but are of such importance that the cost factor is a relatively "minor" consideration. The one line that imo definitely falls into this category is the Dawlish "alternative" namely Okehampton

 

[Harbornite]

Caernarfon station site is built on and much of the trackbed has been swallowed up by road improvements.

Indeed, a new station would have to be built to the North of the city, which comes with its own problems.

 

[Henbury Loop]

Here it is: http://www.railengineer.uk/2016/04/22/after-borders-what-next/

Great link - pleased to see Portishead on there.

http://travelwest.info/projects/metrowest/metrowest-phase-1

It however negates to mention the Henbury Loop reopening to passengers which has a BCR of 3.14

http://travelwest.info/projects/metrowest/metrowest-phase-2

 

[krus_aragon]

It however negates to mention the Henbury Loop reopening to passengers which has a BCR of 3.14

Oh, come now, you can't expect to have your Pi and eat it, can you?

 

[pemma]

Personally, I think that these openings/reopenings have the best business cases (in order of importance):

-HS3 (York/Hull-Leeds-Bradford-Manchester-Liverpool and Sheffield-Manchester via Woodhead)
-A new main line from Edinburgh to Perth (serving Halbeath and Kinross, and with local services stopping at Kelty and Bridge of Earn/Oudenard too)
-Glasgow Crossrail
-Levenmouth
-Fleetwood
-Ashington
-Portishead
-Bridge of Weir/Kilmacolm
-Hawick (via Melrose)
-Penicuik (possibly Peebles, though more unlikely)
-Hirwaun
-Stocksbridge
-Kincardine
-Grangemouth
-Skelmersdale

How many of the above have BCRs worked out by an independent body and how many of them are above 2.5:1? Northwich to Crewe (Middlewich branch) has a BCR of 5:1.

EDIT: Just seen the Rail Engineer link posted above and Middlewich has the best BCR of any line at present (other than Bicester to Bletchley where construction has been authorised), although it should be noted some lines like Glasgow Crossrail don't yet have a BCR.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Oh, come now, you can't expect to have your Pi and eat it, can you?

3.14 isn't quite a full Pi, who's had a little nibble at the Pi?

 

[backontrack]

Oh, I forgot Middlewich.

 

[TBY-Paul]

Are BCR's set or can they change over time?

They most change. The cost of building a railway can rise and fall. And the amount of benefit can also change.

I noticed Washington (Leamside) currently has a BCR of 1.4, and I was wondering if, once the "Northern Connect" services start using the Stillington line, will that have an effect on the BCR of Washington(Leamside).

 

[IanXC]

Would Immingham have a BCR over 1?

The trouble with Immingham is that not only do you need a new station, but you need a new service to operate to it. I suppose plausibly you could add an opposite hour service to the Barton, but it certainly requires more work than a new station on an existing line.

 

[clc]

I believe that in the past there were plans to insert a west facing junction on the City Union Line in the High Street area (St John's Curve?) but they were never implemented. Presumably the thinking was that as the city gravitated westward there would be sufficient passenger traffic to support it. Many, many years since I heard this so could be completely wrong - can anyone shed any light?

Yes the High St curve was an option in SPT's 2008 Crossrail proposal. The various options and their BCRs are described in the report linked to at item 5:

http://www.spt.co.uk/documents/sp250108.pdf

 

[deltic08]

Here it is: http://www.railengineer.uk/2016/04/22/after-borders-what-next/

Contains substantial error in stating Harrogate-Thirsk when it should read Harrogate-Northallerton and states no local support when North Yorkshire County Council has put it in their Strategic Transport Prospectus as recently as October 2015.

 

[Southsider]

Yes the High St curve was an option in SPT's 2008 Crossrail proposal. The various options and their BCRs are described in the report linked to at item 5:

http://www.spt.co.uk/documents/sp250108.pdf

Many thanks for confirming it. My memories go back to the 1960s so the idea has been around for a while without progressing.

 

[backontrack]

The trouble with Immingham is that not only do you need a new station, but you need a new service to operate to it. I suppose plausibly you could add an opposite hour service to the Barton, but it certainly requires more work than a new station on an existing line.

Are there any other Lincolnshire reopenings planned? I've heard that Louth is being discussed...

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

Are there any other Lincolnshire reopenings planned? I've heard that Louth is being discussed...

The Lincolnshire Wolds Railway will extend to Louth if and when funds permit. But the government, North East Lincolnshire and Lincolnshire Councils currently have no plans in place at all. Sadly £100 million was wasted on resignalling recently on the South Bank so no one will cough up any money for decades now. Louth was on the ATOC report in 2009 "Connecting Communities", but it failed to take into account the wider benefits such as a Mablethorpe railhead, etc so it looked like a weak case.

 

[Altnabreac]

Yes the High St curve was an option in SPT's 2008 Crossrail proposal. The various options and their BCRs are described in the report linked to at item 5:

http://www.spt.co.uk/documents/sp250108.pdf

I think there may now be developments planned in the area that could make a High St curve based Glasgow Crossrail proposal more difficult to progress.