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Keighley Bus driver holds passengers hostage (9/6/2015)

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TUC

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Sorry, but I have to take issue with your comments. I also live in the Stockton area and I have never seen any drivers get off a bus in service for a smoke and close the door regardless of whether there are passengers on board or not. And normally, if the driver gets off for a smoke, it's usually on something passing across the high street and they have sit time (Stagecoach's 36/37/38 for example, have 5 minutes time officially between their departure from each end of the high street in both directions during the day). Journeys that terminate in Stockton, drivers normally have their smoke at either the terminating stop in the case of Stagecoach (outside their break room/travel office) or at their commencing stop in the case of Arriva (as all their terminated services finish at the Northern end)

All I can say is that I've seen it happen a number of times, whether for a smoke or other reasons, I haven't lived in Teeside for five years so I'm not talking about recently.
 
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Antman

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I'm intrigued by this, have you got any more information?



In all honesty I'm not sure as I've been and seen on plenty of NCT buses that have reversed (with and without passengers). Of course its possible that they weren't following those rules but it does seem like an illogical rule

When I worked on the buses in London there was a 'rule' against reversing with passengers on board, but it was a complete myth. It was a union agreement from a bygone era that any bus route that involved a reversing manoeuvre, usually at the terminus, had to be crew operated and certain drivers had made up their own interpretation of it.
 

gtr driver

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Like 455 Driver and A Driver, I can see exactly where this driver is coming from. Many of those replying don't know what the management culture of the transport industry is like. We are often ruled by those straight off bog standard management courses, or from other spheres of work that are totally different. They don't understand instinct or common sense and they haven't been on the front line and seen how unworkable or unrealistic many procedures are. Hence they just jump on those who act outside procedure. If you are on the receiving end of this in an out of course situation you have the choice: fall back on procedure, however ridiculous, or face disciplinary action, the sack, or in the event of a mishap, possible imprisonment and media vilification. Now which one do YOU choose?
 

Antman

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Like 455 Driver and A Driver, I can see exactly where this driver is coming from. Many of those replying don't know what the management culture of the transport industry is like. We are often ruled by those straight off bog standard management courses, or from other spheres of work that are totally different. They don't understand instinct or common sense and they haven't been on the front line and seen how unworkable or unrealistic many procedures are. Hence they just jump on those who act outside procedure. If you are on the receiving end of this in an out of course situation you have the choice: fall back on procedure, however ridiculous, or face disciplinary action, the sack, or in the event of a mishap, possible imprisonment and media vilification. Now which one do YOU choose?

What 'procedure' is this then?

Certainly when I was on the buses, not that long ago, there was no rule saying passengers should not be allowed off the bus in the event of a breakdown
 

RJ

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If it's unsafe to let passengers off at undesignated locations then I won't, although most people have the free will to operate the emergency egress system. It would be irresponsible to allow an unsafe act to take place and people can put in all sorts of claims if they do get injured.
 
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Antman

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But there is a rule about not letting passengers off away from a bus stop.

However there is room for a bit of common sense, if the bus was on fire for example
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
If it's unsafe to let passengers off at undesignated locations then I won't, although most people have the free will to operate the emergency egress system. It would be irresponsible to allow an unsafe act to take place and people can put in all sorts of claims if they do get injured.

If you told them to get off they could perhaps make a claim but if you just opened the door and left it up to them................!
 

reb0118

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However there is room for a bit of common sense, if the bus was on fire for example.........

Only if is was a serious fire. You would have to wait for the opinion of the Chief Fire Officer to decide if it was serious or not - in some cases this may prove problematic.

If you told them to get off they could perhaps make a claim but if you just opened the door and left it up to them................!

Nice try but .............no!
 

90019

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However there is room for a bit of common sense, if the bus was on fire for example
I'm not saying you should never do it, just pointing out that the rule is there.

If you told them to get off they could perhaps make a claim but if you just opened the door and left it up to them................!

...then they could still make a claim.
If you open the doors away from a stop, regardless of whether you say anything or not, you're liable if something happens.
 

Antman

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Only if is was a serious fire. You would have to wait for the opinion of the Chief Fire Officer to decide if it was serious or not - in some cases this may prove problematic.



Nice try but .............no!

Oh right............"the bus is on fire but I can't allow you off until the chief fire officer arrives".............hmmmmm!!

Has anybody ever successfully sued a bus driver or operator for picking up passengers or dropping them off other than at a bus stop (something I did many times without a problem) as I suspect this is just another myth that has been circulated.
 

gtr driver

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Perhaps you should read the replies again. When you are told to work to procedures, however stupid they seem in some situations, and face negative consequences to yourself if you choose to ignore them, then you don't have much choice. Common sense is not necessarily allowed in today's world. It does not matter if no one ever sued or nothing happened before, it is the here and now that has to be considered.
 

Antman

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Perhaps you should read the replies again. When you are told to work to procedures, however stupid they seem in some situations, and face negative consequences to yourself if you choose to ignore them, then you don't have much choice. Common sense is not necessarily allowed in today's world. It does not matter if no one ever sued or nothing happened before, it is the here and now that has to be considered.

In other words nobody has ever sued and as I suspected it is indeed another myth!
 

Tetchytyke

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Drivers shouldn't open the doors away from a stop and I don't blame drivers who won't. Of course, if a passenger opens the emergency door that's the passenger's problem, isn't it.
 

Bletchleyite

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Drivers shouldn't open the doors away from a stop and I don't blame drivers who won't.

Does anyone here work for a bus company? What does your rule book say on the matter? It would surprise me if you were told not to open the doors where the bus had broken down.

What is the precise rule in your case? Nobody can blame you for complying with it to the letter, as that is what your job is to do, but people can blame you for not following it, if it says in the event of a breakdown the doors should be opened if safe, for example.
 

lyndhurst25

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If the bus had broken down on a mototway then the driver should have evacuated the passengers onto the verge behind the fence ( and behind where the bus was ) immediately; the average time between stopping on the hard shoulder and being rammed from behind is just 18 minutes.

I don't believe that statistic at all, unless you mean that that 18 minutes is the average time to being hit for the tiny proportion of vehicles stopped on the hard shoulder that area actually rammed from behind? I have spent considerably longer that 18 minutes stopped on motorway hard sholders during my lifetime and have never been rammed. Maybe I'm just lucky? The way you are putting it is a bit like saying that the average time between eating breakfast and being struck by lightning is only 12 hours, so don't eat breakfast!
 

Bantamzen

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I don't believe that statistic at all, unless you mean that that 18 minutes is the average time to being hit for the tiny proportion of vehicles stopped on the hard shoulder that area actually rammed from behind? I have spent considerably longer that 18 minutes stopped on motorway hard sholders during my lifetime and have never been rammed. Maybe I'm just lucky? The way you are putting it is a bit like saying that the average time between eating breakfast and being struck by lightning is only 12 hours, so don't eat breakfast!

Have you never been on the M62 then? It seems like 18 minutes between accidents is a bit conservative..... ;)

Seriously though, I know this section of road well. And assuming from the OP's description we are talking about the section of road from the Emm Lane junction heading south into Bradford, then this is a 30mph route with a bus lane for the first part and then more or less single carriageway into the city. And assuming that the bus broke down close to the kerb, there's really no section that could be considered dangerous to allow passengers to disembark and continue their journey on another service. I have seen plenty of broken down buses over the years, and never seen one driver refuse to let passengers off because they hadn't broken down at a bus stop.
 

bradders1983

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No no, it wasnt on the Six O'Clock News so the incident never happened, don't you know the rules on here by now? :)

As an aside, the same person in the OP was assaulted by a street drinker outside Bradford Interchange station this morning, but I suppose I'm making that one up, too....
 

TheGrandWazoo

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No no, it wasnt on the Six O'Clock News so the incident never happened, don't you know the rules on here by now? :)

As an aside, the same person in the OP was assaulted by a street drinker outside Bradford Interchange station this morning, but I suppose I'm making that one up, too....

Get it right. It didn't make the Baildon Bugle or the Saltaire Mercury!!

Not that it didn't happen; just not the drama-rama that the headline implied. ;);)
 
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Antman

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Does anyone here work for a bus company? What does your rule book say on the matter? It would surprise me if you were told not to open the doors where the bus had broken down.

What is the precise rule in your case? Nobody can blame you for complying with it to the letter, as that is what your job is to do, but people can blame you for not following it, if it says in the event of a breakdown the doors should be opened if safe, for example.

I doubt there is any specific rule because all situations are different and if a passenger decides they are getting off what is the driver supposed to do, pin them to the floor?:D

As for opening doors away from a bus stop which is against the rules but there is still room for some common sense. I mean if a passenger approaches you and says they, or their child perhaps, is about to throw up what do you do, break the rules or have vomit all over the bus?
 

MCR247

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No no, it wasnt on the Six O'Clock News so the incident never happened, don't you know the rules on here by now? :)

As an aside, the same person in the OP was assaulted by a street drinker outside Bradford Interchange station this morning, but I suppose I'm making that one up, too....

I don't think people were saying you made it up, just that the thread title was major Daily Mail/Daily Express style exaggeration. I mean taken hostage, really?
 

34D

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Another bus from another company wouldn't have stopped to pick anyone up anyway as they passengers wouldn't have been at a bus stop.

Three observations (from someone who is a member of management at another west yorks bus company):

-our company at least has a policy of stopping to take broken down passengers from other companies. It is good PR. Biddies scan passes, and let payers travel gratis.

-i would sack someone who didn't open the doors under these circumstances

-there are many circumstances where a bus can legitimately stop between stops. One is if there aren't any bus stops for a long way, and another common one is to make a 'reasonable adjustment' for someone who the driver thinks may well have a disability.
 

Tom B

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Regarding danger when getting off etc there are lots of stops where the street furniture is not designed for dual-door buses and you can, if you're not careful and/or if the driver is badly parked, find yourself faceplanting a lamppost, bin, junction box etc.

Three observations (from someone who is a member of management at another west yorks bus company):

-our company at least has a policy of stopping to take broken down passengers from other companies. It is good PR. Biddies scan passes, and let payers travel gratis.

-i would sack someone who didn't open the doors under these circumstances

-there are many circumstances where a bus can legitimately stop between stops. One is if there aren't any bus stops for a long way, and another common one is to make a 'reasonable adjustment' for someone who the driver thinks may well have a disability.

I suppose there may be insurance issues, but I'm pretty sure there's no law. Or it may be a case of there being nothing wrong with it, but the driver not wishing to disobey instructions. Remember many routes operate on a hail and ride basis and some in the countryside have bus 'stops' which are just village crossroads, pubs, laybys etc. Then there are temporary stops which can be anything from a lollipop to a bit of paper. With deregulation the authority who provides stops may be completely different from the private company who runs the buses, the latter could conceivably register a route along a road with no stops at all and make its own ones up!

A sensible middle way in a similar situation is the driver pulling right up to the kerb (avoiding danger from cyclists passing inside, and ensuring it's a suitable place to alight) then getting out the cab, opening the doors by the buttons and supervising passengers off. I would suggest that if it were investigated the driver would have been seen to be taking reasonable care?

But there is a rule about not letting passengers off away from a bus stop.

I remember a notice which used to be displayed on the rear doors of LRT buses (when rear doors were a thing) :-

YOU MUST NOT GET OFF BETWEEN STOPS
DOING SO IS BOTH DANGEROUS AND ILLEGAL

I always wondered if that would have taken a different interpreation if the same sign was put on the back seat of the top deck ;)
 

Tim R-T-C

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Get it right. It didn't make the Baildon Bugle or the Saltaire Mercury!!

Not that it didn't happen; just not the drama-rama that the headline implied. ;);)

Didn't even make the Keighley News and they reporter earlier this year about a bus being taken out of service because a dog got sick.

http://www.keighleynews.co.uk/news/..._cancelled_after_dog_is_sick_on_board/?ref=mr

Given that all the buses have CCTV, a complaint to head office would get this resolved quickly and the driver suitably disciplined if appropriate. If not, contact the Keighley News.
 

Deerfold

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Regarding danger when getting off etc there are lots of stops where the street furniture is not designed for dual-door buses and you can, if you're not careful and/or if the driver is badly parked, find yourself faceplanting a lamppost, bin, junction box etc.

Keighley and District do not run dual door buses.

A sensible middle way in a similar situation is the driver pulling right up to the kerb (avoiding danger from cyclists passing inside, and ensuring it's a suitable place to alight) then getting out the cab, opening the doors by the buttons and supervising passengers off. I would suggest that if it were investigated the driver would have been seen to be taking reasonable care?

If the driver stopped 20 feet short of a bus stop I'm guessing it was incapable of moving at all.
 

Peter Mugridge

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I don't believe that statistic at all, unless you mean that that 18 minutes is the average time to being hit for the tiny proportion of vehicles stopped on the hard shoulder that area actually rammed from behind?

I have no idea - I have heard the statistic separately from two independent sources ( one an AA patrol man and another a senior traffic police officer ) but it never occurred to me to ask either of them how it was measured... I think I will e-mail the police officer to ask him; the answer could be very interesting.
 

Clip

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However there is room for a bit of common sense, if the bus was on fire for example

You are clutching at straws now. You know very well that that is an emergency situation and is totally different from a breakdown and as such I would hazard a guess that if there is a fire you are told to let them off yes?
 

Antman

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You are clutching at straws now. You know very well that that is an emergency situation and is totally different from a breakdown and as such I would hazard a guess that if there is a fire you are told to let them off yes?

Well that's my point, every situation is different and so there is no point trying to make a hard and fast rule, common sense should always be the overriding factor.
 
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TheGrandWazoo

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Well that's my point, every situation is different and so there is no point trying to make a hard and fast rule, common sense should always be the overriding factor.

Yes, and a person slavishly adhering to a rule without employing discretion is a problem as old as the hills. Silly, yes, but no big deal. That said, the guy may have been on a final written? In that case, you might expect someone to go by the letter! Some just don't employ common sense. We'll never know in this case.

However, does it warrant the description as taking people hostage? Not in the slightest.
 

Antman

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Yes, and a person slavishly adhering to a rule without employing discretion is a problem as old as the hills. Silly, yes, but no big deal. That said, the guy may have been on a final written? In that case, you might expect someone to go by the letter! Some just don't employ common sense. We'll never know in this case.

However, does it warrant the description as taking people hostage? Not in the slightest.

But if there is no letter?

Basically a bus breaks down and it's up to each individual what they do, the driver has no 'control' over them.

The hostage bit was probably just a bit of humour from the OP, hardly a big deal though.
 

ECML180

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The way you are putting it is a bit like saying that the average time between eating breakfast and being struck by lightning is only 12 hours, so don't eat breakfast!

I don't think that eating breakfast is a precursor to being hit by lightning whereas stopping on a montorway is certainly a precursor to being involved in a rear end collision. This is why whenever I take a school group on a motorway I inform the teachers what will be done should the coach break down - it's unlikely but it is a significant risk factor. Unless your cereal is particularly rich in iron, that is, then feel free to be concerned by all sources of high voltage electricity. :lol:

sharpened piece of mango

Don't be silly this isn't trent barton! :lol:

My take on this as someone employed in a bus/coach company:
Breakdowns do happen, they are fairly unavoidable, so many companies do have a policy in place. Often the solution used is that a second vehicle from the same company will collect the passengers, with both drivers assisting in the transfer.

Bearing in mind that buses do carry a number of vulnerable passengers there is good reason for caution to be exercised. School children for example are not as worldly wise, nor do they often follow instructions as well, so keeping them aboard the vehicle is pretty reasonable. The infirm may struggle to alight from the vehicle to the road and so keeping them on board (and sheltered) until another driver/support staff arrive to assist is also preferable. Likewise partially sighted people may struggle to perceive hazards when alighting away from a lit and level paved bus stop, or the elderly may not be as aware of traffic or the surroundings. When alighting onto the pavement at a bus stop it is accepted and understood it is a safe environment, one which they feel is an acceptable level of risk - they must have used to it board the bus. However a broken down vehicle in an unusual place adds another element of risk to it, one which the passengers did not necessarily suspect would happen - so the company/driver needs to take reasonable steps to prevent them from potential danger.

Also from a sudden breakdown a driver may not have enough time to align suitable with the curb, today for example I picked up passengers in a minicoach at a bus stop designed for level boarding of low floor buses. My door's first step was at a similar level to the curb but was around 6 inches away as it swings outwards and the paving slopes stopping me getting nearer. This gives an example of the risk of minor injuries possible to an able bodied person during an abnormal alighting situation, but also an example of making a judgement and common sense prevailing: I made the passengers aware of the hazard and assisted them on boarding.

In my opinion this incident has been blown out of proportion, it was bad PR and not very customer focussed. However without any exact details we cannot comment with any reasonable accuracy, but if the driver made the decision it was not safe to alight/wait/walk in that position and chose to wait for a second staff member and a bus as close as possible was it such a bad thing to do? Likewise with evacuation, from the descriptions given it sounds like somewhere the bus was reasonably safe to be stopped but not necesarily the safest place for passengers to be disgorged to. The questions I would ask myself if I was the driver: "Is it unsafe to be stopped here?"/"Would I find it acceptable to be stopped here under normal circumstances?" (safe - do not evacuate), "Is it unsafe to alight here?"/"Would I find it acceptable to alight here under normal circumstances?" (possibly unsafe - further assess/await back-up).

We'll probably never know much about it and given the level of hyperbole I'm taking the OP's comments with a pinch of salt. Ultimately most companies do have a similar policy: keep passengers on the bus and wait for another vehicle, so other than taking slightly longer than desirable I don't see why this is any worse than any of the other tens of break-downs that happened across the country today. Not great...but not a hostage situation either!



As a side note - that's my uni exams done for this year and a whole week of 10-12 hour days at work finished. So as you can see I now have time on my hands I haven't had recently to read long threads and reply! :lol:
 
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