Ken Livingstone: I'd give TfL Southeastern's metro to LOROL

Discussion in 'UK Railway Discussion' started by bicbasher, 15 Nov 2011.

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  1. bicbasher

    bicbasher Established Member

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  3. Schnellzug

    Schnellzug Established Member

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    And i bet all the commuters would LOLOL.
    Does anyone think this might be part of a cunning campaign to get potential voters on his side against Boris?
     
  4. cjohnson

    cjohnson Member

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    Not necessarily giving it to LOROL, but rather using the same concession model.
     
  5. jopsuk

    jopsuk Veteran Member

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    Well yes, it's part of his campaign. Hardly secret, or sneaky or anything like that. Not even "cunning"
     
  6. Schnellzug

    Schnellzug Established Member

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    To discredit Boris, i mean, by telling them that it was because he wasn't reelected that this didn't come about.
     
  7. bicbasher

    bicbasher Established Member

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    Given TfL's use of generic brands, I think Southeastern Metro services would have been given London Overground branding, even if the staff would still be working for Southeastern rather than LOROL.

    However after the success of the East London line conversion, passengers would probably demand the Metro franchise be run to the same standards as LO with TfL at Southeastern's door keeping an eye on things.
     
  8. swt_passenger

    swt_passenger Veteran Member

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    He can pretend that if it happened it would have become like LO, with a brand new fleet of 378s - but these routes already have relatively new trains, ISTM he'd never have got a similar business case through with nowhere for the existing stock to go to?
     
  9. jopsuk

    jopsuk Veteran Member

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    I doubt the 376s would have been replaced- at any rate, they've similarities to the 378. Perhaps he'd have tried to get the "mainline" section to take all the Networkers - perhaps displacing 375s to Southern- or even elsewhere, given there's 30 with pantographs already fitted.
     
  10. Electrostar

    Electrostar Member

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    As a SouthEastern commuter I'd love them to come under a LOROL-style contract with tight conditions for everything from delays to graffiti and cleanliness to stick availability, even of they can't promise the same frequencies. The ex-Southern stations on the LO are a joy to visit now compared to their Southeastern neighbours. Penge East may be a grander station but the modest Penge West is kept pristine since LOROL took over. Look what they've done with Brockley too.
     
  11. jcollins

    jcollins Veteran Member

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    The question might be for all those improvements proposed where will Ken get the money from?
     
  12. jon0844

    jon0844 Veteran Member

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    You and me.

    Still, people who love to spend loads of money that isn't theirs seem to always be more popular than those who try and be sensible with it.

    I am sure we'll see a gradual expansion of London Overground out of all directions of London in the coming years, such as the inner-suburban routes out of Moorgate that I am sure will become LO in the next 5-10 years.
     
  13. tbtc

    tbtc Veteran Member

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    I agree - I think that LO is cleverly becoming a benchmark for quality, meaning that passengers on short distance SE/SN/SWT services will start to want the same standards.
     
  14. jon0844

    jon0844 Veteran Member

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    It also makes sense, even if some lines go some distance out. Bar Intercity services, I can see many semi-fast/commuter trains going over, and the extension of the Oyster card (or zonal ticketing) beyond London too - as is happening next year out of King's Cross and possibly Liverpool St?

    I can see trains to Hertford East also becoming part of London Overground, and I am sure there are many other viable routes to the east, south and west too.

    While nothing has ever been said in public, I am sure there are people looking at plans like this as we speak.
     
  15. tbtc

    tbtc Veteran Member

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    I suppose the question is whether it'd be better for a route like Hertford East to be operated by LOROL (which goes against the move towards having one operator at termini) or to have the West Anglia franchise run those services "at LOROL specified standards" (branded as LOROL etc)?

    Hopefully the improvements made on LOROL routes (cleaner trains, CCTV at platforms, safer environment etc) become the "norm" on other routes too.
     
  16. Electrostar

    Electrostar Member

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    Whatever happens there needs to be more stringent rules governing franchisees. I don't want to turn this into the existing Southeastern thread but why should Southeastern be allowed to get away with continued short-formed services, dirty trains and lacklustre cleaning at stations? Yes TfL is funded by the taxpayer but so is Southeastern and that hasn't stopped it maximising profits while fare-paying, tax-paying passengers are treated to a poor service. TfL appointed LOROL to meet very high credentials with tough penalties for everything from graffiti to delays.
     
  17. tbtc

    tbtc Veteran Member

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    TfL also apply much tighter restrictions on buses - you never see a London bus without fully working destination screens etc - I can see why they want the same standards applied to trains which run wholly within Greater London (or those which only run marginally outside their borders)
     
  18. Class377/5

    Class377/5 Established Member

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    Why not work with the DfT and part fund new trains as renewal of units come up (early example could be 6 car 378's for the Hereford - Moorgate line) with TfL getting some revenue from the franchises that use them as well as helping spc the train service as well?
     
  19. HSTEd

    HSTEd Established Member

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    Well they could keep the one operator per termini move by concentrating the ECML inner Suburban services at Moorgate, perhaps even keeping moorgate open off-peak and taking the off peak trains out of King's Cross.

    Why does Moorgate close offpeak anyway? Is it simply a cost cutting exercise or is there an operational reason.
     
  20. Class377/5

    Class377/5 Established Member

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    Think it's more historical than anything else. One reason given has been that going from one station late at night it's easier for people to get home rather than trying Kings Cross or Moorgate.

    To me it makes sense to have the Hertford loop services always go to Moorgate. Simple then. But I am going off thread now.
     
    Last edited: 16 Nov 2011
  21. jopsuk

    jopsuk Veteran Member

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    psst- Hertford, not Hereford. The latter is WAY outside reasonable TfL Metro boundaries!
     
  22. Class377/5

    Class377/5 Established Member

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    D'oh.
     
  23. jon0844

    jon0844 Veteran Member

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    The idea of one operator into a terminus is fine to a point, but you could still have LO working alongside (perhaps from dedicated platforms, such as at Euston) other operators.

    King's Cross has FCC, EC and the open access operators. LO could go exclusively to Moorgate, but I imagine there would need to be costly upgrades to some stations to make them more accessible.

    The successor to FCC could still stop trains at the likes of Finsbury Park, Potters Bar, Hatfield and WGC, but LO would run the majority of trains - and at 15 minute frequencies (and even possibly higher in the peaks).

    LO probably wouldn't be seen by many as a rail operator, as it's seen by many as part of the tube network - just overground! I'm ignoring how the industry, DfT, ATOC would see it - as that's different to the public perception.
     
  24. swt_passenger

    swt_passenger Veteran Member

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    No one apparently wants to use the route as far as Moorgate late in the evening or at weekends. Similar reasons to the Waterloo and City line having reduced hours and weekend closures.
     
  25. TrenHotel

    TrenHotel Member

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    That may have been the case a decade or more ago, before Shoreditch and Hoxton's revival. But Old Street Northern Line is busy seven days a week now. And Highbury & Islington's never been a sleepy backwater.

    Sure, perhaps Essex Road might not be able to pay its way, but the rest of the line would probably be fairly popular at evenings/weekends these days.

    A switch to London Overground would presumably also see the end of the hated "National Rail + TfL" fares which squeeze an extra £1.20 or so out of anyone with the temerity to change travel modes on a journey including zone 1 - making the weekend usage of terminals like Moorgate and Cannon Street less of a hassle for weekend travellers who'd be able to switch to the Tube with no extra cost.
     
  26. jon0844

    jon0844 Veteran Member

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    Old Street is thriving thanks to the coolness of Hoxton and Shoreditch, plus the 'Silicon Roundabout' that is attracting lots of new businesses, plus some rather large ones (e.g. Google).

    There's definitely scope to run trains until midnight or 1am at weekends, and run trains at weekends. Moorgate to Liverpool St is a nice short walk too, so it even offers a convenient way to get there from the ECML, avoiding King's Cross and the tube, as well as letting people get to LO at Highbury & Islington without using the tube.
     
  27. Electrostar

    Electrostar Member

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    100% agree with the comments about Old Street and Essex Road has huge potential. It's surrounded by houses, flats and lots of new-build apartments. The bar scene on Essex Road has grown and it would provide an alternative to Angel and Highbury & Islington.

    Going back to the Overground being seen as part of the Tube, I think most passengers and many Londoners realise the difference. We have become used to the different coloured roundels meaning for each service and realise it doesn't have Tube-style frequencies but it's a solid brand helped by investment in new trains, infrastructure and stations.
     
  28. bicbasher

    bicbasher Established Member

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    I think there's still room for improvement with LOROL, especially with late night services. Us who use the southern end of the ELL extension were promised Tube style services and end times as part of the sell, yet the last through train from Canada Water to Forest Hill is at 2356. Southern provide a last train from London Bridge at 0036. What we got was a tube style service until around 2200 then a sudden drop in service to 4tph between New Cross Gate and Sydenham.

    Otherwise I share your earlier sentiments about the ex Southern stations that LOROL now manage. Superb compared to 3 years ago.
     
  29. Electrostar

    Electrostar Member

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    I agree about the late-night services and perhaps now's the time to put pressure on TfL. I think the London Reconnections blog may have raised this issue and I'm surprised if it hasnt been raised at Mayor's Questions. I'd imagine services from Dalston and Shoreditch would be very popular, although may require more cleaners! Perhaps they could start with a Friday and Saturday night.

    I'd be interested to see if a lot more passeengers are heading north from the southern end in the evenings these days as a result of the opening up of the direct route to Shoreditch?
     
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