Kent County Council aiming to save £4 million from bus budget

[alex397]

Yet more disappointing news for buses. This time in Kent.

http://www.kentonline.co.uk/kent/news/dozens-of-kent-bus-services-could-be-lost-136018/

74 bus services are at risk of being affected by cuts, due to KCC aiming to save £4million.

In some sources, KCC have said some journeys may be saved by operators running them commercially. This may be true for a handful of journeys, but its unlikely that many will be taken over commercially. 1-2 years ago in the last KCC cuts, Stagecoach (for example) did take over some journeys commercially (for example, the Canterbury-Sandwich-Deal evening journeys). But since then, Stagecoach have been cutting many routes (like the recent Dover area cutbacks), so it is unlikely they would want to take over many more potentially unprofitable journeys.
With some of the independent operators, many do not operate anything commercial. An example being Regent Coaches, who operate a large number of KCC contracts in east Kent. They do not, and to my knowledge never have, operated any bus routes/journeys commercially. Why would they start doing that now, in such uncertain times?

It is true that some very poorly used journeys could be cut to save wastage, but in my view having such drastic cuts such as those proposed would have a very negative affect. Any savings made by cutting bus services, could be offset by rising costs elsewhere. For example, people having to claim benefits rather than work, because they can no longer travel by bus to work. A big assumption made by many in this country, is that its easy to get a car and drive. Another example, is increased healthcare costs - cutting bus services would stop elderly people getting 'out and about', where they get exercise and mental stimulation. Staying at home all day would increase health problems.

The thing that makes me most angry, is how much of the major bus cuts across the country are just going unnoticed. There are no major news stories, and many politicians don't seem to know anything about buses.

 

[Typhoon]

Last paragraph - it was the lead story on Radio Kent news this morning. Interviews with affected residents, KCC cabinet member (seems like more local authority cuts to come). The expectation appears to be that the Kent Karrier (dial-a-ride service) will take over some of the work. The leader of the council mentioned recently about the need to move towards more of a 'community bus' model of which there is very little in Kent (two routes, I think) compared with neighbouring East Sussex. It was also mentioned in the regional news (unfortunately, half way through but there was a 'case study' involving residents at Upchurch - Chalkwell 327), and, apparently, it has been raised in Parliament by the MP for Canterbury!

Some of the villages affected (Northbourne, Staple, Tilmanstone come to mind) had an hourly service until September when Stagecoach revised their Dover network. They are now reduced to being incorporated into a 'shoppers service' (for which KCC would have had to pick up the bill), which is now under threat.

Some of the services will have to exist in some form or other or children will not be able to get to school - several are specifically school routes, others school days only. It is quite possible that some merging of routes is possible. However, parents may have selected a school for their child on the basis of an existing 'school bus'. It should be remembered that as Kent has selection so movement around the county (and into the county) is by no means a rarity.

Regent do have their private hire work, Tesco bus and school work (not included in the 'at risk' list), however, having taken over work from Poynters (last August) and Chalkwell in the last few years they must be apprehensive. On the other hand, five of their routes on the list have been given the highest priority so these may well escape the axe.

 

[alex397]

Perhaps slightly relevant for this thread is my recent experience on a Kent CC supported service.

I recently went on one of the once-a-week shoppers routes which radiate from Tenterden, informally known as the 'Weald Shopper' routes, which is operated by New Enterprise (part of Arriva Kent & Surrey). It left Tenterden on time, with an unusually light load (probably due to the cold weather). About 40 minutes into the journey passing through another small town, we were then running over 10 minutes EARLY! Even though its a shoppers service aimed at people visiting Tenterden, I still find this a bit wrong. On the afternoon journey on a route like this, you are mostly just dropping people off, and are unlikely to pick anyone up - but thats not the point. There may be some casual users who may need to use it between villages. I wonder how many people have tried using the service, but have been unable to due to it leaving early, or missing out part of the route??

The other issue was, all the other passengers knew the driver, but did not scan their concessionary passes (nor did the driver manually add them on the ticket machine). When I asked if I should scan my pass, the reply was 'erm... ok then'. Surely not recording passengers would skew the figures for this route?

If this is a regular driver, then wrong figures of passengers could be recorded on this route going back months or even years. If KCC are considering withdrawing this route and using passenger numbers as a reason, then i'd be quite concerned!

I see this sort of thing on infrequent rural routes quite often (in both Kent and elsewhere in the UK), usually with small independent operators, and surprisingly large operators such as my example above. I wonder what logic drivers like this are using, because ultimately, it could affect their jobs. I also wonder how accurate passenger data and route costings really are across routes in Kent, and if this could affect if they are withdrawn or not.

It also seems a shame that more is not being to encourage new passengers. A simple thing such as not running ridiculously early could increase passenger numbers.

 

[Typhoon]

KCC does employ tellers to check numbers travelling/ passes held/ destinations. Seems to happen about once a year. Still, the point about accuracy is well made.

Although it is described as a shopper's service, several of the routes do end up in largish towns at the end of their run (Tonbridge and Tunbridge Wells come to mind) and, as the Weald is an attractive area, it is quite possible to go for a country walk and return on this bus from one of the villages along the route (except if you haven't anticipated the bus running early).

Five of the Weald Shopper services are included in the eight routes requiring the highest subsidy per passenger, figures which might be skewed by the report. However, regarding the general theme of the post, I suspect many of the routes will be axed irrespective of usage, just to save money.

 

[philthetube]

Free travel for pensioners has a lot to answer for, at least the county got some revenue back for these services previously, not it is just lose lose for them.

 

[overthewater]

Yawn...... Yes let's ignore the other factors in play in this world, which includes the council wasting money on bad ideas etc... that kind of shopper service could be provided by a cheap dial A ride service etc Personnel I dont beleive if the free passes were killed off we would see any major increase in revenue, actually I have expect to see a further decrease in usage. Just before the english free travel was put into place Labour spent a lot of money boosting bus service with lots and lots of ideas, which the funding come to a halt around the same time Free pases come in.

Typhoon you should be phoning Kent council about this to make them aware....

 

[Typhoon]

[QUOTE="

Typhoon you should be phoning Kent council about this to make them aware....[/QUOTE]

I am not certain why I should be contacting KCC.

My points were:-
1. KCC uses another method of gauging bus usage. (KCC know this.)

2. There might be other potential passengers for buses besides shoppers - I suggested one possible group (there are others). This can be gleaned from KCC's Explore Kent website.

3. The Weald Shopper services are very heavily subsidised - I found this out from KCC documents.

If your point is about the non-scanning of cards, that was a different poster. I have not witnessed this but agree that it should be reported provided it is certain that they have not scanned their cards. I have previously reported a series of incidents on a contracted service, KCC acted on this and reported back on the action taken, so it is worth it. I suspect Arriva might wish to know, too. My last point was that as KCC is trying to save such a significant sum of money, it may be that evidence of slightly greater usage will make absolutely no difference to their retention. There are almost 80 routes or groups of routes on the 'hit list', 40 of them have the highest priority. These Weald Shopper routes have priority 7!

I do agree with the point about the ENCTS scheme. The idea that cardholders would take the same number of journeys at full cost is very unlikely (if I am being generous). In most of Kent, I suspect that pensioners who can afford a car, use one (or use taxis). Those that travel by bus are largely those who are less well off and will merely curtail many of their recreational journeys, ask friends or relatives for lifts or just stay at home. I should add that I cannot point to concrete evidence for this besides talking to bus passengers and other pensioners living in my area.

 

[Busaholic]

Early running is a totally preventable scourge: read any of the Traffic Commissioners' various reports over the years and this issue comes up time and time again. It could be, of course, that too much running time is being allowed for this route and why would Arriva care as they are only the contractor? If the route is to continue, then perhaps Kent CC should be told.

 

[Typhoon]

Things may not be as bleak as originally expressed.

According to Paul Francis (Political Editor of KM Group - regional newspaper and local TV), quoted in 'Thanet Extra' (newspaper in the group) the leader of KCC said "It is true that bus subsidies are among the potential savings we must look at ... but we understand the importance of these transport arrangements to people and we are progressing a programme that could potentially significantly reduce the list of affected routes ...". It also describes negotiations with the main bus operators (Arriva and Stagecoach), presumably to drive down subsidies.

Unfortunately I can't find an on-line reference to the article, which is much more detailed than my short quote. This does seem to be code for 'some of the routes will go but by no means all because of the opposition there has been'. I know there have been petitions started for some routes and certain MPs have been outspoken.

 

[backontrack]

I'm glad if things seem to be better than expected.

 

[jon0844]

I wonder if it will be like HCC where they asked operators to run some buses commercially and only subsidise a handful of buses as a result - saving a lot of money. Naturally the commercial times are soon dropped from the timetable. The reduced service frequency then means a lot of people can no longer use the bus, so after a year or two it's very easy to make the cuts then as the data shows what a waste the subsidy is for such low patronage.

On a Sunday, only a tiny number of buses run with council funding, mostly those serving the Lister hospital. Otherwise it's commercially run buses or nothing.

 

[alex397]

Things may not be as bleak as originally expressed.

According to Paul Francis (Political Editor of KM Group - regional newspaper and local TV), quoted in 'Thanet Extra' (newspaper in the group) the leader of KCC said "It is true that bus subsidies are among the potential savings we must look at ... but we understand the importance of these transport arrangements to people and we are progressing a programme that could potentially significantly reduce the list of affected routes ...". It also describes negotiations with the main bus operators (Arriva and Stagecoach), presumably to drive down subsidies.

Unfortunately I can't find an on-line reference to the article, which is much more detailed than my short quote. This does seem to be code for 'some of the routes will go but by no means all because of the opposition there has been'. I know there have been petitions started for some routes and certain MPs have been outspoken.

You're right that it might not be as bad as first proposed, but its clear that significant savings are going to have to be made.
Its good they are having negotiations with Arriva and Stagecoach, but the majority of supported routes are operated by independent operators, and they are likely to be the worst affected by any cutbacks.

I wonder if it will be like HCC where they asked operators to run some buses commercially and only subsidise a handful of buses as a result - saving a lot of money. Naturally the commercial times are soon dropped from the timetable. The reduced service frequency then means a lot of people can no longer use the bus, so after a year or two it's very easy to make the cuts then as the data shows what a waste the subsidy is for such low patronage.

On a Sunday, only a tiny number of buses run with council funding, mostly those serving the Lister hospital. Otherwise it's commercially run buses or nothing.

KCC have already made savings with public transport in the last couple of years - with Arriva and Stagecoach taking over supported journeys commercially. Stagecoach did similar things in East Sussex a few years back. Will Arriva and Stagecoach be willing to operate even more supported journeys commerically? I'm not so sure. Some independents may operate some commercially, such as Chalkwell and Nu-Venture, but other operators such as Regent Coaches and Kent Coach Travel operate nothing commercially, and are unlikely to start doing so.

 

[Typhoon]

I wonder if it will be like HCC where they asked operators to run some buses commercially and only subsidise a handful of buses as a result - saving a lot of money. Naturally the commercial times are soon dropped from the timetable. The reduced service frequency then means a lot of people can no longer use the bus, so after a year or two it's very easy to make the cuts then as the data shows what a waste the subsidy is for such low patronage.

On a Sunday, only a tiny number of buses run with council funding, mostly those serving the Lister hospital. Otherwise it's commercially run buses or nothing.

Possibly, although Arriva and Stagecoach run comparatively few of the listed routes - Arriva has shed a couple in the last few months. Most of the routes listed are run by independents, with all journeys being subsidised (ie it is the route rather than the journey that is subsidised). There may be opportunities for rationalising or, following East Sussex, in reducing days of operation (especially Sunday) but the independents are probably already running on a shoestring (one went out of business earlier in the year) so could not afford the hit.

Many of these routes provide 'the only bus in the village' or school buses (13 of these) so would have an impact.

 

[Typhoon]

You're right that it might not be as bad as first proposed, but its clear that significant savings are going to have to be made.
Its good they are having negotiations with Arriva and Stagecoach, but the majority of supported routes are operated by independent operators, and they are likely to be the worst affected by any cutbacks.




KCC have already made savings with public transport in the last couple of years - with Arriva and Stagecoach taking over supported journeys commercially. Stagecoach did similar things in East Sussex a few years back. Will Arriva and Stagecoach be willing to operate even more supported journeys commerically? I'm not so sure. Some independents may operate some commercially, such as Chalkwell and Nu-Venture, but other operators such as Regent Coaches and Kent Coach Travel operate nothing commercially, and are unlikely to start doing so.

You put it better than I did!

 

[jay38a]

All routes are saved: www.kentlive.news/news/kent-news/victory-kent-lives-save-buses-1067664.amp

 

[Busaholic]

Good news, for now anyway. The cynic in me sees the personal problems that so many Kent Tory MPs have experienced recently, not forgetting the criminal charges that one still faces. Happy days!