Keolis/Amey to take over Wales and Borders

[anamyd]

I'm in Wales tomorrow so I'll listen out for that. Is it confirmed that Ruth is no longer recording? I have read before that Eryl is based in Cardiff, and there is a high chance that Ruth still lives in the far South West, so it would have been more convenient to get Eryl into the studio at Cardiff than Ruth. I'm surprised they even went to that length to be honest, and didn't just get the lady who does the 'See it, Say it, Sorted"/Buy Before You Board/Sloping platform announcements to do it.

Quite a nice touch regardless, I'm sure a lot of other operators wouldn't bother. Or maybe it will just give ATW commuters horrific flashbacks of the last 15 years

It's what an employee of a station told me, more than once as well. I thought the studio was in Nottingham at Atos? The same one that "Anne-ouncements" are recorded in...? Eryl does run a company in Cardiff called Equinox though.

Yeah it did surprise me. Also odd hearing "Glyn'" / Eryl in English! I've now heard it at Cardiff Central as well. not as loud as at Carmarthen because they don't have the amps / multi zone amp turned up to quite the same degree of "11" as Carmarthen's amp.

 

[Parallel]

It's what an employee of a station told me, more than once as well. I thought the studio was in Nottingham at Atos? The same one that "Anne-ouncements" are recorded in...? Eryl does run a company in Cardiff called Equinox though.

Yeah it did surprise me. Also odd hearing "Glyn'" / Eryl in English! I've now heard it at Cardiff Central as well. not as loud as at Carmarthen because they don't have the amps / multi zone amp turned up to quite the same degree of "11" as Carmarthen's amp.

Thanks for the additional info. I wonder why she stopped recording? Hopefully not for ill health or anything like that. Keolis/Amey will be looking for a new female English voice to take over at some point then, I guess!

 

[anamyd]

Thanks for the additional info. I wonder why she stopped recording? Hopefully not for ill health or anything like that. Keolis/Amey will be looking for a new female English voice to take over at some point then, I guess!

No worries. It's rumoured that Ruth is a heavy smoker. Listen to how deep and rough her voice sounds on new TOC and station names and delay/cancellation reasons compared to her old recordings that are used for everything else. But yes I hope she is not too unwell.

Transport for Wales say:

"We are currently reviewing the on-station announcements and also the on-train announcements. We are looking to replace the Arriva Trains Wales reference by the new contract start.

We are also looking to improve Welsh pronunciation, however target dates for this are still to be agreed."

 

[Parallel]

No worries. It's rumoured that Ruth is a heavy smoker. Listen to how deep and rough her voice sounds on new TOC and station names and delay/cancellation reasons compared to her old recordings that are used for everything else. But yes I hope she is not too unwell.

Transport for Wales say:

"We are currently reviewing the on-station announcements and also the on-train announcements. We are looking to replace the Arriva Trains Wales reference by the new contract start.

We are also looking to improve Welsh pronunciation, however target dates for this are still to be agreed."

Quite a vague reply from TfW there as the TOC name is per standard, but I guess generally it would be initially fairly low down on their list. Of course, there is also the possibility that Amey will install the Amey system at their stations - Whatever happens, hopefully they will go with somebody other than Anne though.

 

[pemma]

For the majority of the last 15 years, signage and branding at Chester has displayed the “Wales” in Arriva Trains Wales anyway, so don’t really see what the difference is to be honest. I’m sure the people of Chester and surrounding areas are intelligent enough to know they’re not in Wales. You could argue the same about Merseyrail. Chester isn’t part of Merseyside, so is that wrong too? Branding is branding. At the end of the day, people just want a reasonably priced, reliable railway service.

No you can't. The name Merseyrail (not Merseyside Rail) pre-dates the creation of Merseyside, while the River Mersey is a river which marks the traditional boundary between Cheshire and Lancashire so any journey between a town/city historical in Cheshire (like Chester) and one historically in Lancashire (like Liverpool) involves crossing the Mersey (unless you are east of Stockport.) That makes Merseyrail an apt name.

Chester has a history of fighting to keep the Welsh out of the city, so it's inappropriate and misleading to use Welsh branding in the city. When I was there last I noticed a school group given hi-vis branded jackets for their school (in Hull.) How are schoolkids supposed to believe their Roman solider guide who says we fought to keep the Welsh out and succeeded if the station is branded as if it is a Welsh station?

 

[uxm]

If MTR had won the franchise, what would be different? And also since Keolis/Amey won does it mean they offered a better deal with better rolling stock?

 

[CambrianCoast]

No you can't. The name Merseyrail (not Merseyside Rail) pre-dates the creation of Merseyside, while the River Mersey is a river which marks the traditional boundary between Cheshire and Lancashire so any journey between a town/city historical in Cheshire (like Chester) and one historically in Lancashire (like Liverpool) involves crossing the Mersey. That makes Merseyrail an apt name.

Chester has a history of fighting to keep the Welsh out of the city, so it's inappropriate and misleading to use Welsh branding in the city. When I was there last I noticed a school group given hi-vis branded jackets for their school (in Hull.) How are schoolkids supposed to believe their Roman solider guide who says we fought to keep the Welsh out and succeeded if the station is branded as if it is a Welsh station?

We’re talking about a railway franchise here, have some perspective. So from your statement, what you’re essentially saying is that a railway company adorning signs at the station in Chester is underminding history, is detrimental to education and is a call for an uprise in historic rivalry to “keep the Welsh out”. You better swiftly go outside the station too and tell those pesky Arriva buses to stop displaying Welsh destinations on the front, and, ask “the Welsh” not to come into the city just in case the Roman soldier guide gets sacked for having questionable credibitly! Did you know that Chester once came under the control of the kingdom of Powys? Just saying!

 

[Llanigraham]

Chester has a history of fighting to keep the Welsh out of the city, so it's inappropriate and misleading to use Welsh branding in the city. When I was there last I noticed a school group given hi-vis branded jackets for their school (in Hull.) How are schoolkids supposed to believe their Roman solider guide who says we fought to keep the Welsh out and succeeded if the station is branded as if it is a Welsh station?

Can I suggest that you do a little more historic research. You will find that for several long periods Chester was under Welsh control and was deemed part of Wales, especially under the Princes of Powys.

 

[pemma]

We’re talking about a railway franchise here, have some perspective. So from your statement, what you’re essentially saying is that a railway company adorning signs at the station in Chester is underminding history, is detrimental to education and is a call for an uprise in historic rivalry to “keep the Welsh out”. You better swiftly go outside the station too and tell those pesky Arriva buses to stop displaying Welsh destinations on the front, and, ask “the Welsh” not to come into the city just in case the Roman soldier guide gets sacked for having questionable credibitly! Did you know that Chester once came under the control of the kingdom of Powys? Just saying!

Transport for Wales is a Welsh government department, not the name of the rail franchise - the rail franchise is called Wales and Borders. If a bus or train service goes in to Wales it's perfectly acceptable for the destination display to show both English and Welsh and if a train or bus is used on services on both sides of the boundary it's also perfectly acceptable for it to have bilingual notices on board. However, to give an English station Welsh government branding is just plain stupid.

Would North Wales have accepted "Transport for the North of England" branding all over their stations if the franchise map hadn't been revised to put North Wales services with Mid and South Wales services instead of with North West England services? Not bloody likely!

I didn't say the Roman solider would be sacked but implied that the Welsh government's ludicrous decision could make it harder to educate children visiting Chester on educational visits because the signs conflict with the correct information that they will be given about Chester.

 

[CambrianCoast]

Transport for Wales is a Welsh government department, not the name of the rail franchise - the rail franchise is called Wales and Borders. If a bus or train service goes in to Wales it's perfectly acceptable for the destination display to show both English and Welsh and if a train or bus is used on services on both sides of the boundary it's also perfectly acceptable for it to have bilingual notices on board. However, to give an English station Welsh government branding is just plain stupid.

Would North Wales have accepted "Transport for the North of England" branding all over their stations if the franchise map hadn't been revised to put North Wales services with Mid and South Wales services instead of with North West England services? Not bloody likely!

I didn't say the Roman solider would be sacked but implied that the Welsh government's ludicrous decision could make it harder to educate children visiting Chester on educational visits because the signs conflict with the correct information that they will be given about Chester.

The fact of the matter is that the DfT and Welsh Government have worked together on the whole process, meaning that both organisations clearly have come to an agreement. End of, there’s nothing anyone can do about it. Policy states that Chester railway station comes under the remit of the W&B franchise, if that burdens your conscience, be a pioneer, get in touch with your MP and start a proper, balanced debate about it. If people feel strongly about the subject, they’ll join you! People just want a train service that gets them there comfortably and on time regardless of branding!

As for educating children about the rich, diverse millennia of history that Chester has played a part in, your argument is seemingly flawed and frankly ridiculous by basing such emphasis on a sticker at a railway station, when trivially, I’d imagine that the majority of any educational trips to Chester would come by road transport anyway! Oddly, I don’t think the railway station was there in Roman times, unless it was Transport for Deva back then of course(!) with no cross-border service provision, so doubt it’d be the first point of call for the Roman soldier guide’s tour!

 

[pemma]

The fact of the matter is that the DfT and Welsh Government have worked together on the whole process, meaning that both organisations clearly have come to an agreement. End of, there’s nothing anyone can do about it. Policy states that Chester railway station comes under the remit of the W&B franchise, if that burdens your conscience, be a pioneer, get in touch with your MP and start a proper, balanced debate about it. If people feel strongly about the subject, they’ll join you! People just want a train service that gets them there comfortably and on time regardless of branding!

As for educating children about the rich, diverse millennia of history that Chester has played a part in, your argument is seemingly flawed and frankly ridiculous by basing such emphasis on a sticker at a railway station, when trivially, I’d imagine that the majority of any educational trips to Chester would come by road transport anyway! Oddly, I don’t think the railway station was there in Roman times, unless it was Transport for Deva back then of course(!) with no cross-border service provision, so doubt it’d be the first point of call for the Roman soldier guide’s tour!

The agreement was for a Wales & Borders franchise called Wales & Borders. As Chester is close to the Welsh border there's no problem with that brand being used at Chester. However, the Welsh government putting their own branding over a station in England is ludicrous.

The conclusion of the story of the history of Chester is that present day it's a city in the English county of Cheshire. The tradition of 'Roman Soldiers' patrolling Chester continues to this day - they wear two different colours to distinguish which ones are 'on duty' and which ones aren't (e.g. because they are doing a private school tour.) So your point about the station not being there in Roman times is meaningless.

I'm sure many children who will travel to or via Chester station with their families will get an educational trip to Chester on a separate occasion (even if that is on a coach) as I'm not aware of Chester station having banned children from using it.

 

[PR1Berske]

JCollins, I agree with you on many things across the forum, though on this point I am struggling. "Trafnidiaeth Cymru/Transport for Wales" as a sticker on a railway station wall is every bit of a branding choice as "Arriva Trains Wales/Tranau Cymru" was, and neither have much consequence outside the station building. That Roman Guards are teaching children about keeping out the Welsh while Arriva Wales Buses/Bysiau travelling to/from Flint/i/o Y Fflint journey around them does not mean education is on the ropes. It's just a logo, in this case, it's just business.

 

[pemma]

JCollins, I agree with you on many things across the forum, though on this point I am struggling. "Trafnidiaeth Cymru/Transport for Wales" as a sticker on a railway station wall is every bit of a branding choice as "Arriva Trains Wales/Tranau Cymru" was, and neither have much consequence outside the station building. That Roman Guards are teaching children about keeping out the Welsh while Arriva Wales Buses/Bysiau travelling to/from Flint/i/o Y Fflint journey around them does not mean education is on the ropes. It's just a logo, in this case, it's just business.

It would be wrong to teach children the Welsh aren't welcome in Chester opposed to the Welsh weren't welcome in the past. However, I still don't see how TfW branding has any relevance - the station staff will be employed by W&B not TfW and unlike in Wales TfW won't be responsible for setting the service level specification for the English parts of the W&B network that are being operated on behalf of DfT. Unless TfW have produced a load of stickers for covering up the ATW branding and Kelios/Amey are supposed to rebrand the stations as W&B when the new franchise starts?

 

[krus_aragon]

It would be wrong to teach children the Welsh aren't welcome in Chester opposed to the Welsh weren't welcome in the past.

Likewise, in the past the Welsh haven't been welcome in Beaumaris, Carnarvon, and Conway (when the castles and town walls were still new).

 

[CambrianCoast]

The agreement was for a Wales & Borders franchise called Wales & Borders. As Chester is close to the Welsh border there's no problem with that brand being used at Chester. However, the Welsh government putting their own branding over a station in England is ludicrous.

The conclusion of the story of the history of Chester is that present day it's a city in the English county of Cheshire. The tradition of 'Roman Soldiers' patrolling Chester continues to this day - they wear two different colours to distinguish which ones are 'on duty' and which ones aren't (e.g. because they are doing a private school tour.) So your point about the station not being there in Roman times is meaningless.

I'm sure many children who will travel to or via Chester station with their families will get an educational trip to Chester on a separate occasion (even if that is on a coach) as I'm not aware of Chester station having banned children from using it.

Who said anything about banning people from railway stations? Why would the railway form part of a Roman history tour? The only time Wales and Borders has been used as an operational name for a railway business was from 2001 to 2003. There has never been any binding agreement stipulating that the trading name/branding of the franchise has to be Wales and Borders. Transport for Wales is just the same concept as Arriva Trains Wales - a brand image, a name, not a revolution! It is what it is. I don’t agree with you and you don’t agree with me. Such is life, oh well!

 

[krus_aragon]

I seem to recall that Westminster insisted that "Borders" was part of the public name, as part of the conditions of devolving the responsibility of letting the franchise, but I can't find a reference at this moment.

 

[pemma]

Who said anything about banning people from railway stations? Why would the railway form part of a Roman history tour? The only time Wales and Borders has been used as an operational name for a railway business was from 2001 to 2003. There has never been any binding agreement stipulating that the trading name/branding of the franchise has to be Wales and Borders. Transport for Wales is just the same concept as Arriva Trains Wales - a brand image, a name, not a revolution! It is what it is. I don’t agree with you and you don’t agree with me. Such is life, oh well!

I was simply making the point ANY child can pass through Chester station as you seemed to imply that those who had been given a Roman Solider tour of Chester wouldn't see the Welsh government branding inside Chester station.

The franchise has been known as the Wales & Borders franchise since 2001. Arriva Trains Wales are the current franchise holder of the Wales & Borders franchise.

 

[uxm]

If MTR had won the franchise, what would be different? And also since Keolis/Amey won does it mean they offered a better deal with better rolling stock?

I guess no one is gonna answer my question.

 

[PR1Berske]

I guess no one is gonna answer my question.

There may be no way of knowing what would have been different.

 

[CambrianCoast]

I was simply making the point ANY child can pass through Chester station as you seemed to imply that those who had been given a Roman Solider tour of Chester wouldn't see the Welsh government branding inside Chester station.

The franchise has been known as the Wales & Borders franchise since 2001. Arriva Trains Wales are the current franchise holder of the Wales & Borders franchise.

Yes I’m fully aware of the name of the franchise and the company that is currently contracted to run it. What you don’t seem to acknowledge is that there’s a difference from the name of the legal franchise and the operational name that passengers see. Maybe that will change in October in the W&B case, that’ll be the proof. Virgin Trains for instance is the operational name of West Coast Trains the legal entity that runs the InterCity West Coast franchise. There’s the point, and as another user has stated, it’s just business.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Have Transport for Wales stickers gone up at Shrewsbury, Hereford, Runcorn East etc?
The fact is, the DfT devolved W&B stations and services in England to TfW, so it's inevitable that this comes out in the branding.
The trains themselves should have Wales & Borders branding fairly prominently, as well as the TfW logo.
On-train audio announcements in Welsh would be novel, though, Welsh is currently limited to the visual PIS on ATW.
I have never heard a Welsh on-train manual announcement - might be a bit challenging for train crew based at Crewe (sorry Cryw).

 

[CambrianCoast]

Have Transport for Wales stickers gone up at Shrewsbury, Hereford, Runcorn East etc?
The fact is, the DfT devolved W&B stations and services in England to TfW, so it's inevitable that this comes out in the branding.
The trains themselves should have Wales & Borders branding fairly prominently, as well as the TfW logo.
On-train audio announcements in Welsh would be novel, though, Welsh is currently limited to the visual PIS on ATW.
I have never heard a Welsh on-train manual announcement - might be a bit challenging for train crew based at Crewe (sorry Cryw).

Bilingual announcements made by on-board crew are not uncommon on the Cambrian Coast. Just depends where you are I guess!

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

Have Transport for Wales stickers gone up at Shrewsbury, Hereford, Runcorn East etc?
The fact is, the DfT devolved W&B stations and services in England to TfW, so it's inevitable that this comes out in the branding.
The trains themselves should have Wales & Borders branding fairly prominently, as well as the TfW logo.
On-train audio announcements in Welsh would be novel, though, Welsh is currently limited to the visual PIS on ATW.
I have never heard a Welsh on-train manual announcement - might be a bit challenging for train crew based at Crewe (sorry Cryw).

I have heard many on train announcements in Welsh, usually from the Holyhead guards on the Birmingham / Cardiff routes. Only from a couple of the guards, but they do , do them.

 

[dorsetdesiro]

Having the Welsh government managing English stations may seem upsetting however it is a Welsh TOC and Chester IS by the Welsh border therefore the Welsh language will be visible whether we like it or not.

English is used alongside Welsh at many Welsh stations which the Welsh don't seem to moan much also getting on with their lives. The English language could've been removed leaving only Welsh in Wales. So some reprociality in England should be welcomed along the border region is exactly where TfW W&B mainly operates.

As for something like Transport for Northern England operating in North Wales, this could be possible as First North Western used to operate up that way, that TfNE definitely would use Welsh language at its Welsh stations like TfW using English at English stations.

 

[CambrianCoast]

Having the Welsh government managing English stations may seem upsetting however it is a Welsh TOC and Chester IS by the Welsh border therefore the Welsh language will be visible whether we like it or not.

English is used alongside Welsh at many Welsh stations which the Welsh don't seem to moan much also getting on with their lives. The English language could've been removed leaving only Welsh in Wales. So some reprociality in England should be welcomed along the border region is exactly where TfW W&B mainly operates.

As for something like Transport for Northern England operating in North Wales, this could be possible as First North Western used to operate up that way, that TfNE definitely would use Welsh language at its Welsh stations like TfW using English at English stations.

Thank you, finally a reasonable voice!

 

[pemma]

As for something like Transport for Northern England operating in North Wales, this could be possible as First North Western used to operate up that way, that TfNE definitely would use Welsh language at its Welsh stations like TfW using English at English stations.

That seems to imply the Welsh population only want the Welsh language to be used - which couldn't be further from the truth. Many in North Wales can't speak a word of Welsh and feel it's a few Welsh speakers in Cardiff who are forcing a language to be used regardless of whether or not there are Welsh speakers locally.

 

[Camden]

I like the new branding. Will look good on a Merseyrail & TfW dual-branded "Lerpwl Heol James".

 

[CambrianCoast]

That seems to imply the Welsh population only want the Welsh language to be used - which couldn't be further from the truth. Many in North Wales can't speak a word of Welsh and feel it's a few Welsh speakers in Cardiff who are forcing a language to be used regardless of whether or not there are Welsh speakers locally.

Oh for goodness sake, come on. Nobody said that at all, that’s just rubbish! There are statistically more Welsh speakers in north Wales than there are in south Wales. It’s got nothing to do with a “few welsh speakers in Cardiff.” It’s the law, have a look at the Welsh Language Measure 2011. Any service that receives Welsh public funds must have bilingual provision. Seeing as the new franchise has been procured on a devolved basis in Wales, under agreement from the DfT it is therefore subject the to the laws set out by the introduction of the Welsh Language Measure. You can’t cherry pick, this is one franchise after all!

 

[Parallel]

Indeed, I have heard bilingual announcements made by on train crew on the Cambrian Coast line, but nowhere else. Quite a nice touch really. I’m also not bothered by ‘Transport for Wales’ being mentioned at the English stations they operate. The vast majority of services at Chester go to/from Wales some point in the journey anyway.

As for Welsh automated onboard announcements, why not? As long as everything is kept short and sweet so they aren’t really long. I think Chester/Shrewsbury/Hereford stations should just keep English only though as now.

 

[CambrianCoast]

Indeed, I have heard bilingual announcements made by on train crew on the Cambrian Coast line, but nowhere else. Quite a nice touch really. I’m also not bothered by ‘Transport for Wales’ being mentioned at the English stations they operate. The vast majority of services at Chester go to/from Wales some point in the journey anyway.

As for Welsh automated onboard announcements, why not? As long as everything is kept short and sweet so they aren’t really long. I think Chester/Shrewsbury/Hereford stations should just keep English only though as now.

Completely agree!