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Keolis Amey Wales - Future Rolling Stock

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kieron

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Yes, I'd been wondering about that - especially as if there isn't one spare, then it's normally the Chester - Crewe or Blaneau services that get sacrificed. Anyone want to put money on a D-train making it all the way to Cardiff in service?!

That said, the Liverpool - Chester service was expected (before the franchise was announced) to be operated by 150s at first. If that doesn't change there will still be a need for 150s in the North.
I would expect D-trains to be much more limited than 150s, as no-one in South Wales will know how to drive one, and they may only be cleared as far as Croes Newydd North Fork. They will be able to run between Llandudno and Chester, whatever happens.

The Halton Curve was planned around 150s, but I don't think this would rule out anything else which can meet 150 timings. I'm just going to wait until they say something more specific about the service.
 
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driver_m

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I would expect D-trains to be much more limited than 150s, as no-one in South Wales will know how to drive one, and they may only be cleared as far as Croes Newydd North Fork. They will be able to run between Llandudno and Chester, whatever happens.

The Halton Curve was planned around 150s, but I don't think this would rule out anything else which can meet 150 timings. I'm just going to wait until they say something more specific about the service.

The D train will probably drain it's batteries trying to climb out of Lime St upto Wavertree Jn. Probably safer with a conventional train for now .
 

craigybagel

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I would expect D-trains to be much more limited than 150s, as no-one in South Wales will know how to drive one, and they may only be cleared as far as Croes Newydd North Fork. They will be able to run between Llandudno and Chester, whatever happens.

The Halton Curve was planned around 150s, but I don't think this would rule out anything else which can meet 150 timings. I'm just going to wait until they say something more specific about the service.

If Crewe crews sign them they will be able to get as far as Cardiff - but my suggestion of sending them all that way is a little tongue in cheek!

The D train will probably drain it's batteries trying to climb out of Lime St upto Wavertree Jn. Probably safer with a conventional train for now .

Very true. Incidentally, how far are they supposed to be able to run on battery?
 

pemma

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The Halton Curve was planned around 150s, but I don't think this would rule out anything else which can meet 150 timings. I'm just going to wait until they say something more specific about the service.

What the business case is based on (2 x pairs of 150s in the case of the Halton curve service) doesn't have to be what runs it.
 

mushroomchow

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Very true. Incidentally, how far are they supposed to be able to run on battery?

I think the last quote was 50 miles between charges on pure battery, but these will be hybrids so presumably that range will be reduced.

Depends where they're stopping off to charge and whether the timings will allow a full charge in that dwell time. Certainly at Liverpool Street they'd be able to max out a smaller Hybrid battery before departure - but it'll be those intermediate stations that matter if the array is already flat after the first few miles.

Still, at least with a hybrid you don't run the risk of stranding passengers because the driver forgot to charge his train. :p
 

The_Engineer

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The D train will probably drain it's batteries trying to climb out of Lime St upto Wavertree Jn. Probably safer with a conventional train for now .
It'll be running on diesel all the way, EXCEPT for pulling away from and stopping at selected stations by GPRS. As I have stated before, the chief reason for the battery on W&B Class 230 trains is energy recovery from braking, to raise their efficiency to satisfy the Greens. The battery is not rated for long distance use. very from braking, to raise their efficiency to satisfy the Greens. The battery is not rated for long distance use.

The diesel engine also float charges the battery of course...…. Think like a hybrid car, it's a similar set-up.
 
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Dai Corner

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It'll be running on diesel all the way, EXCEPT for pulling away from and stopping at selected stations by GPRS. As I have stated before, the chief reason for the battery on W&B Class 230 trains is energy recovery from braking, to raise their efficiency to satisfy the Greens. The battery is not rated for long distance use. very from braking, to raise their efficiency to satisfy the Greens. The battery is not rated for long distance use.

The diesel engine also float charges the battery of course...….

Am I right in thinking the batteries will only be charged from the Diesel engine and during braking and there is no provision for charging from a shore supply?
 

The_Engineer

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Am I right in thinking the batteries will only be charged from the Diesel engine and during braking and there is no provision for charging from a shore supply?
Correct. There is certainly no need to charge from an eternal source. Essentially, it's a diesel train with energy recovery.

Viva Rail do have a battery only option for Class 230s that will have bigger battery packs (longer range) and of course depend on external charging. I have not seen what the Marston Vale units are being built as - they are certainly a diesel prime mover but I have seen no info yet that says it will have energy storage batteries.
 

gareth950

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Do we think the 150s & 158s will appear in the TfW colour schemes?
Any sensible person would realise that the heavy internal refresh & deep clean just given by ATW to the 150s, along with new seat covers, new flooring, new panelling on most, means the 150s internally are fine to 2023.
Externally they are fine as well, with nearly all 150s having had an external repaint. I bet that won't stop TfW instructing Keilos to waste yet more TfW coloured paint on them though. IMO just stick a big T and 'Transport for Wales' where the Arriva logo was and 150s are fine to 2023.
If they are changed internally though, e.g. yet more new seat covers because TfW want rid of all traces of Arriva turquoise, just for the sake of it, that really will be a huge waste of money for the sake of 4/5 years.
 
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if the new stock was less time away then stickers may do but I don't think it's a waste of money to update liveries which would be around for 5 years.
 

Dai Corner

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If we had an eternal energy source, we wouldn't need to bother with diesel trains any more! ;)

:D

We do, it's called the Sun and is eternal for all practical purposes. Unfortunately the way it's delivered isn't much use for traction purposes so we have had to devise roundabout methods to get it into a usable form.
 

craigybagel

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Do we think the 150s & 158s will appear in the TfW colour schemes?
Any sensible person would realise that the heavy internal refresh & deep clean just given by ATW to the 150s, along with new seat covers, new flooring, new panelling on most, means the 150s internally are fine to 2023.
Externally they are fine as well, with nearly all 150s having had an external repaint. I bet that won't stop TfW instructing Keilos to waste yet more TfW coloured paint on them though. IMO just stick a big T and 'Transport for Wales' where the Arriva logo was and 150s are fine to 2023.
If they are changed internally though, e.g. yet more new seat covers because TfW want rid of all traces of Arriva turquoise, just for the sake of it, that really will be a huge waste of money for the sake of 4/5 years.

They will still need a fair bit of work internally to make them PRM compliant though.

Even though the 175s are due to leave the fleet, I can imagine at least one of them will be repainted for the opening day ceremonies, or possibly a 158 depending on what is deemed the most glamorous.

:D

We do, it's called the Sun and is eternal for all practical purposes. Unfortunately the way it's delivered isn't much use for traction purposes so we have had to devise roundabout methods to get it into a usable form.

Remember this is a Welsh franchise werew talking about :D
 

Great_Western

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Intrestingly, all existing stock will now begin to be debranded. Rumour has it that rebranding will begin before the new franchise starts. I have already noticed several 150's and a 142 that are devoid of all ATW logo's (at least on the outside) in the last few days.
 

Gareth Marston

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Intrestingly, all existing stock will now begin to be debranded. Rumour has it that rebranding will begin before the new franchise starts. I have already noticed several 150's and a 142 that are devoid of all ATW logo's (at least on the outside) in the last few days.

There's been adebranding plan in place for some weeks now.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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The latest issue of Railway Herald includes an interior render of the CAF units. It's very refreshing to see a visible focus on window/seat alignment - didn't Northern claim that it wasn't possible to offer this on the new trains due to design constraints?
The bad news? Looks like KeolisAmey are going for the infamous Fainsa ironing boards. Oh dear. I'm sure they'll be heaps of fun on the longer-distance journeys - Manchester to Tenby comes in at six and a half hours, IIRC.
Love them or loathe them - and perhaps let's not debate them again here - but I hesitate to believe they were designed for journeys that long.

I still can't believe they went for gangwayed stock, and so many 2-car sets.
Hardly any railway in Europe has those.
Recent MU orders (Northern, TPE, GA, TL, Crossrail etc) all had full cabs until recently SWR, WMT and now KA went the other way.
The sheer cost of cab fitment of ETCS and all the control gear was mitigating against short sets, but here we are back with 2-car gangwayed stock just like the 150s.

I had a ride on a German Stadler unit on Sunday (BoB Meridian 3x6-car set), and I'm afraid the seats were the same ironing boards we are complaining about.
Seems universal now.
Excellent ambience though, with non-scrolling PIS screen giving next 6 stops with times and connections.
 

superalbs

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I had a ride on a German Stadler unit on Sunday (BoB Meridian 3x6-car set), and I'm afraid the seats were the same ironing boards we are complaining about.
No they are not. They are well-shaped seats with a small amount of padding. Completely different to our poorly-shaped seats with no padding.

In fact, not even the same manufacturer.
 

krus_aragon

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I still can't believe they went for gangwayed stock, and so many 2-car sets.
Hardly any railway in Europe has those.
Without such stock, multiple working and through running from Shrewsbury to the Cambrian Coast wouldn't be practical. We also know that this splitting and joining approach is going to be extended to Chester (Liverpool to Llandudno/Cardiff) and Swansea (First class unit on some Manchester to Milford services), so gangways on all long-distance stock makes sense.
 

gwr4090

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Havn't noticed this before, but apparently at least five Class 153s are to move from GWR by 2019 for use on rural west wales services. Maybe these will be fitted with new disbabled retention toilets ? Are these in place of Class 150s perhaps ?
 

The_Engineer

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Havn't noticed this before, but apparently at least five Class 153s are to move from GWR by 2019 for use on rural west wales services. Maybe these will be fitted with new disbabled retention toilets ? Are these in place of Class 150s perhaps ?
Do you have a source for this information? It could well be, if true, part of a strategy to eliminate Pacers ASAP. A temporary measure until the new rolling stock comes into service.

EDIT - refer to the one below! Supersedes mine......
 
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krus_aragon

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Havn't noticed this before, but apparently at least five Class 153s are to move from GWR by 2019 for use on rural west wales services. Maybe these will be fitted with new disbabled retention toilets ? Are these in place of Class 150s perhaps ?

I believe they're part of the plan to release the existing class 150s for PRM/toilet upgrades before 2020, and replace Pacers (directly, or by cascading 150s) which are due to be withdrawn by the end of 2019.

The class 170s from Anglia are earmarked for the Heart of Wales and West Wales lines (eventually): these are due to arrive at the end of 2019, shortly after the 153s, so it's doubtful that the 153s will be setting up shop in West Wales for very long, if at all.
 

swt_passenger

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5 x 153 from GWR was also included in the list back in post #175, and discussed at the time, it isn’t recent “new” news.
 

Bletchleyite

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They won't fit 153s with new style bogs unless they're reformed into 155s, there'd be no seats left. More likely they'll remove them and add more bike/wheelchair space or something.
 

gareth950

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They won't fit 153s with new style bogs unless they're reformed into 155s, there'd be no seats left. More likely they'll remove them and add more bike/wheelchair space or something.
Yes but you also can't have 153s (or any train) running around West and rural Wales without toilets. It's not the Metro.
 
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