Keolis Amey Wales - Future Rolling Stock

Discussion in 'Traction & Rolling Stock' started by AventraFlex, 26 May 2018.

  1. Cardiff123

    Cardiff123 Member

    Messages:
    547
    Joined:
    10 Mar 2013
    So there's no capacity increase on the Cambrian if 2 car 158s are being replaced with 2 car CAF DMUs?
     
  2. craigybagel

    craigybagel Established Member

    Messages:
    2,228
    Joined:
    25 Oct 2012
    No more so then they are now, limited to only using 158s. So long as those units are kept on Cambrian services that should be more then enough - you can safely assume TfW have done the maths.

    Extra capacity will come from running hourly all day long.

    It's also worth pointing out that if TfW really have got their maths wrong, it shouldn't be too hard to retrofit ERTMS to more units, given the units concerned will be being designed from the start for it, it shouldn't be anywhere near as hard as it was to put it into 158s.
     
  3. sw1ller

    sw1ller Established Member

    Messages:
    1,093
    Joined:
    4 Jan 2013
    Keeping the ERTMS to a limited number of units is a god send. NR have stated, that if ERTMS is fitted and working correctly, then it must be used at all times. That’s why changing ends at Birmingham international, for example, takes time. You have to wait for the ERTMS to load up, even if you’re using it in level 0 (zero). Shunting round the depots and quick turn around will be much easier and faster now along with all the splitting/attaching at Shrewsbury etc. If you’ve ever been on a 158 and heard the ‘ready to depart’ buzzer but no movement for 2 minutes, you now know why. Even longer if you end up over some grids.
     
  4. sw1ller

    sw1ller Established Member

    Messages:
    1,093
    Joined:
    4 Jan 2013
    Keeping the ERTMS to a limited number of units is a god send. NR have stated, that if ERTMS is fitted and working correctly, then it must be used at all times. That’s why changing ends at Birmingham international, for example, takes time. You have to wait for the ERTMS to load up, even if you’re using it in level 0 (zero). Shunting round the depots and quick turn arounds will be much easier and faster now along with all the splitting/attaching at Shrewsbury etc. If you’ve ever been on a 158 and heard the ‘ready to depart’ buzzer but no movement for 2 minutes, you now know why. Even longer if you end up over some grids.
     
  5. craigybagel

    craigybagel Established Member

    Messages:
    2,228
    Joined:
    25 Oct 2012
    Not to mention the issue of radio interference at Wooferton which after 7 years still hasn't been fixed.
     
  6. Philip

    Philip Established Member

    Messages:
    1,202
    Joined:
    27 May 2007
    Location:
    Manchester
    14 units for the Manchester-Swansea service is a bit surplus since the service can be covered with 9 diagrams (and even more easily once it is speeded up). I wonder if the plan is to have 9 for the Manchester services, 2 for maintenance and 3 to cover the Holyhead-Cardiff services which won't be loco hauled?
     
  7. Cardiff123

    Cardiff123 Member

    Messages:
    547
    Joined:
    10 Mar 2013
    Don't forget there will be the new Cardiff - Liverpool 1tp2h services as well.
     
  8. krus_aragon

    krus_aragon Established Member

    Messages:
    4,192
    Joined:
    10 Jun 2009
    Location:
    North Wales
    3 units wouldn't stretch very far in providing a First Class service for Liverpool-Cardiff. (At least on the Holyhead-Cardiff, even though it's only three trains a day, you've got the distinction of loco-hauled stock and a full kitchen for catering.)
     
  9. Cardiff123

    Cardiff123 Member

    Messages:
    547
    Joined:
    10 Mar 2013
    Is Cardiff - Liverpool going to have a first class section?
     
  10. sw1ller

    sw1ller Established Member

    Messages:
    1,093
    Joined:
    4 Jan 2013
    Not unless you mean Manchester, no. Shame really, but who’s going from Liverpool to Cardiff??? I believe that service will be split up. Passengers Liverpool to Chester and then normal working south there of.
     
  11. Envoy

    Envoy Established Member

    Messages:
    1,183
    Joined:
    29 Aug 2014
    We could well find Bristol (& south - west) passengers heading to Liverpool going to Newport and then up The Marches route to reach Liverpool if the prices undercut those charged by Cross Country. Of course, it also depends upon the timings/length of journey and the quality of the trains.

    Is it the intention to have the south Wales to Liverpool trains split at Chester with one section going to Holyhead? (That being in addition to the 3 loco hauled sets of former East Coast stock).
     
  12. krus_aragon

    krus_aragon Established Member

    Messages:
    4,192
    Joined:
    10 Jun 2009
    Location:
    North Wales
    Not that I'm aware. I got the impression that you were suggesting it (though on re-reading you may just have been pointing out the general rolling stock requirements).

    All ex-Liverpool trains will split at Chester. One portion will run to Llandudno, the other will go to Shrewsbury, continuing to Cardiff in alternate hours.

    Manchester services will be redirected to Bangor, giving it 2tph. Holyhead will keep its current 1tp2h to Cardiff (including the loco-hauled) and presumably the other 1tp2h service that currently runs to Birmingham.
     
    Last edited: 25 Nov 2018
  13. berneyarms

    berneyarms Established Member

    Messages:
    1,855
    Joined:
    26 Nov 2013
    I think you mean 1tp2h in each case from Holyhead!
     
  14. krus_aragon

    krus_aragon Established Member

    Messages:
    4,192
    Joined:
    10 Jun 2009
    Location:
    North Wales
    Erp, yes. Post duly corrected. (I must have had reciprocals on the brain...)
     
  15. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

    Messages:
    39,803
    Joined:
    20 Oct 2014
    Location:
    Up and down the south WCML (mostly)
    Quite some decrease, I'd imagine. Though I half recall talk that it would become 4 coaches to Aber with a separate shuttle for Pwllheli? Could do with being 6, certainly in summer.
     
  16. Gareth Marston

    Gareth Marston Established Member

    Messages:
    6,231
    Joined:
    26 Jun 2010
    Location:
    Newtown Montgomeryshire
    They've committed to running through trains from Pwllheli to Birmingham 4/5 a day so it should be 4 2 4 2 4 from/ to Shrewsbury at peak times.

    The real need is extra carriages between Shrewsbury and Birmingham at peak times
     
  17. Philip

    Philip Established Member

    Messages:
    1,202
    Joined:
    27 May 2007
    Location:
    Manchester
    If 21 units are to be used only for Cambrian services (so Birmingham-Holyhead services on separate diagrams), then I would think it'll be minimum 4-coach formations on all Birmingham-Aberystwyth services, with 6-coach formations to Dovey Junction when splitting for Pwllhelli and for all peak time trains between Shrewsbury-Birmingham.
     
  18. Llanigraham

    Llanigraham On Moderation

    Messages:
    3,967
    Joined:
    23 Mar 2013
    Location:
    Powys
    6 car to Dovey Junction to split isn't very practical when the Pwllheli trains use one platform and the Aber the other. They have to split at Machy.
     
  19. Gareth Marston

    Gareth Marston Established Member

    Messages:
    6,231
    Joined:
    26 Jun 2010
    Location:
    Newtown Montgomeryshire
    The inbound service from Holyhead forms the Pwllheli portion of the next westbound service at International and vice versa in the other direction. The two are linked it doesn't work otherwise.
     
  20. craigybagel

    craigybagel Established Member

    Messages:
    2,228
    Joined:
    25 Oct 2012
    But if the timetable gets recast.....

    Given that there are currently 24 158s, of which 3 spend the day away from the Cambrian, this suggests that 21 won't be enough to offer any improvements over the current situation on the Cambrian if Interworking with Birmingham - Holyhead continues as well. As we know the Cambrian is due to go hourly - then even before you get on to the issue of potentially lengthening trains you've got a shortage of units. TfW aren't stupid - they will have done the maths and worked out that they can make the full Cambrian service work with 21 units. Ergo......
     
  21. krus_aragon

    krus_aragon Established Member

    Messages:
    4,192
    Joined:
    10 Jun 2009
    Location:
    North Wales
    That, and also the fact that the Holyhead-Birmingham service was conspicuous in its absence from the new franchise announcements in June.

    At the time, we concluded that it must remain, because just 1tp2h (Cardiff) was absurdly low for Holyhead, and the claimed hourly Cambrian was only from Aber to "Shrewsbury", not Birmingham.

    Gareth has since confirmed that the hourly service will indeed operate through to Birmingham, so perhaps it's time to re-evaluate what'll happen to the Holyhead-Birmingham in a timetable recast.
     
  22. Along the bay

    Along the bay Member

    Messages:
    43
    Joined:
    2 Sep 2018
    I would cut the service back to Chester it's a ridiculous route and it's easier for people from North Wales to go to Crewe and use virgin or LNWR
     
  23. berneyarms

    berneyarms Established Member

    Messages:
    1,855
    Joined:
    26 Nov 2013
    The service is more than linking Birmingham with the North Wales Coast.

    What about anyone going to Wrexham and points along the Chester-Shrewsbury line?

    This service is really about connecting all the intermediate points along the route.
     
    Last edited: 26 Nov 2018
  24. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

    Messages:
    39,803
    Joined:
    20 Oct 2014
    Location:
    Up and down the south WCML (mostly)
    My personal preference would be to lop at Chester (as it used to be) and instead run that service through to Crewe, replacing the shuttle. This could require somewhat of a recast, though.
     
  25. Gareth Marston

    Gareth Marston Established Member

    Messages:
    6,231
    Joined:
    26 Jun 2010
    Location:
    Newtown Montgomeryshire
    Theirs a couple of 158's in the North Wales to Manchester diagrams as well to factor in.
     
  26. Gareth Marston

    Gareth Marston Established Member

    Messages:
    6,231
    Joined:
    26 Jun 2010
    Location:
    Newtown Montgomeryshire
    Still on a brighter note - and boy do we need it - it looks like Carwyn has got cold feet on lumbering Wales with the M4 Relief Road as his parting present.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-46334232
     
  27. PHILIPE

    PHILIPE Established Member

    Messages:
    10,044
    Joined:
    14 Nov 2011
    Location:
    Caerphilly
    I'm beginning to wonder now following some recent posts re numbers of units if TFW are trying to put some spin on it. When going into the finer details, will there be more accomodation overall. If they say that more trains are coming they are not actually lying.
     
  28. berneyarms

    berneyarms Established Member

    Messages:
    1,855
    Joined:
    26 Nov 2013
    That would conflict it with the North Wales coast to Manchester and v.v. services for which the timings are pretty much cast in stone.

    The shuttle connects into and out of that service.
     
  29. sw1ller

    sw1ller Established Member

    Messages:
    1,093
    Joined:
    4 Jan 2013
    This was exactly what I did this weekend. Even though it was free for me to go via Shrewsbury, I went via Stafford instead as it’s such a better route. (Shame my connection at Crewe was cancelled on the was home but that’s for another thread!!)

    I don’t get this need for zero changes. Aber to Birmingham would be such a better service if everyone changed at Shrewsbury. All this splitting units and reattaching is a joke. The same applies elsewhere. As long as the connections are good, 5-10 minutes, then what’s the issue? Enough time for everyone to change trans, stretch legs or get a brew.

    I’m not saying get shut of them all, still keep some. Of course this needs to be worked closely with disabled assistance and step free access to ensure no one is inconvenienced unfairly but that’s what the 5 billion quid is for init?
     
  30. krus_aragon

    krus_aragon Established Member

    Messages:
    4,192
    Joined:
    10 Jun 2009
    Location:
    North Wales
    The perceived inconvenience is probably the fact that (excluding the token VT service to Shrewsbury) all the Cambrian would be two changes from London.

    If Shrewsbury were to get a regular hourly London service (as seen at Chester), there'd be less resistance to such a move. But that's not going to happen with VT's current fleet.
     

Share This Page