Kings Cross for Nottingham?

[Welshman]

According to today's East Midlands news on BBC1, Network Rail is considering inviting tenders to run a faster service from Nottingham to London King's Cross via Grantham, from 2014. The present service of around 1hr 45m is considered too slow by passengers.
How would this new service be reconciled with the much-publicised capacity constraints at Welwyn and at King's Cross itself? Will the proposed possible service be diesel-powered under the wires from Grantham, or will the Grantham-Nottingham stretch be electrified? Interesting times.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Looking at extending to Cleethorpes as well via Grantham, pretty large article and map in current RAIL

 

[Aictos]

With this proposed Nottingham to Kings Cross routing, would it just mean the existing St Pancras to Nottingham service being diverted to use Kings Cross to Nottingham instead or would it be considered a additional route for East Coast to look after which I think is unlikely considering they dropped Lincoln from all but one return trip.

Could East Midland Trains actually divert their existing Nottingham services on a hourly basis to Kings Cross so one train per hour uses the MML and the other uses the ECML which could be diagrammed in such a way that a train works Nottingham to St Pancras, St Pancras to Nottingham, Nottingham to Kings Cross and finally Kings Cross to Nottingham?

As to the routing on the ECML, I'm sure a hourly or a 2 hourly service could be catered via the Hertford Loop which would remove any doubts on the Welwyn question which is feasible considering Grand Central used to send a working via Hertford for route knowledge purposes plus if it was Kings Cross, Stevenage, Peterborough, Grantham, Nottingham it would still be appealing as it is still a express service.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

At a guess, ajax, I'd say EMT would keep their 2tph via MML, and Ec would run extra, pretty poor service Nootm-London ATM, one train is about 7/8 stops, and the other 4 .

 

[Welshman]

Such a routing with those stops would indeed provide new journey opportunities, but the additional time required with those stops and a possible diversion via the Hertford loop would eliminate any time saving over the existing route.

 

[ivanhoe]

Nottingham is a large city with a relatively slow London journey time. The thing is though how do you shave say 15 minutes off the current journey time without affecting the needs of passengers further down the line. Diverting one train via Grantham gives problems for passengers in say Loughborough , not to mention East Midlands Parkway. I think it's just speculation although I would support an extra train via Grantham as it would give EMT some serious competition.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

ATM I believe its one calling East Mids Pkwy, Leicester and Mkt Harborough, relatively fast compared to other trains . The other is Beeston, Loughborough, Leicester, then all stations except Luton-St Pancras. And is slowwwwww. I take it something down the ECML would call Grantham, Peterborough and Stevenage
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Emt_vector_map.svg

Handy map of EMT calling patterns

 

[MCR247]

Why cant the Sheffield semi-fasts do the Market Harborough call?!

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Why cant the Sheffield semi-fasts do the Market Harborough call?!

Is a bit strange how Mkt Harbrough 2tph north both go to Nottingham, leaves you stuffed if you need an easy journey to Sheffield/Leeds, especially those not eager on changing trains

 

[Shrub Hill]

if EMT run it i would not imagine thats East coast would be happy with them stopping at peterbrough, none of the other operators that use the ecml stop there ( to the best of my knowledge) so would it not just be Nottingham -Grantham -KX ?

 

[MidnightFlyer]

It'd be run by EC Shrub Hill. Always wondered why HT never called at PBO. Thanks.

 

[38Cto15E]

One hour 45 mins now, what sort of time does it take for NOT-Grantham and Grantham-KX?
I assume it would be HST with just a Grantham stop.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

One hour 45 mins now, what sort of time does it take for NOT-Grantham and Grantham-KX?
I assume it would be HST with just a Grantham stop.

I'd say an absolutely perfect run would be maybe 1h2min, 20 or so to Nottm, so 1h25 hopefully

 

[38Cto15E]

There is work going on to improve the line speed on the MML that should save a few minutes for Nottingham passengers, also as a BM posted, put the Market Harborough stop for the Sheffield semi fast, the platforms not long enough for a HST anyway.

 

[Aictos]

if EMT run it i would not imagine thats East coast would be happy with them stopping at peterbrough, none of the other operators that use the ecml stop there ( to the best of my knowledge) so would it not just be Nottingham -Grantham -KX ?

Actually I think you will find it's just the open access operators who don't call there except maybe during times of engineering works.

East Midland Trains already call at Peterborough with their Norwich to Liverpool service and their Spalding/Lincoln services, Cross Country also call with their Birmingham to Stansted services, NXEA is the best one as it offers a route to London but to Liverpool Street which in my book is very similar to a EMT Nottingham service using St Pancras and a East Coast Nottingham service using Kings Cross!

And of course FCC call there so why would East Coast be worried?

 

[Going South]

Perhaps Network Rail are suggesting that the "Was-going-to-Lincoln-but-now-only-as-far-as-the-small-market-town-of-Newark" paths could be diverted to Nottingham? These were to be diesel powered if going to Lincoln.

 

[MCR247]

At the moment Kings Cross - Nottingham can be done in 1h55 by getting on the 1630 Kings Cross - Newcastle (Edinburgh) as far as Grantham, then having a 10 minute break and then boarding a 15x to Nottingham.
Please note the 1630 is Non-stop to Grantham

 

[Flywaver]

Nottingham - Grantham route is mostly 50mph......

 

[Wyvern]

Interesting isnt it how decisions made years ago have repercussions to today.

In the early nineteenth century Nottingham had good access to canals and the River Trent. Few of its citizens saw any great need for a railway.

Meanwhile Derby was stuck with the River Derwent and a rather expensive canal. So when people in Yorkshire were looking for a route south, while Birmingham was looking to extend its network, Derby was full of enthusiasm. So Nottingham finished up with what is still really a branch line.

 

[Benno]

It'd be run by EC Shrub Hill. Always wondered why HT never called at PBO. Thanks.

It wouldn't necessarily be run by EC. The piece on East Midlands Today stated that Network Rail would be issuing an invitation to tender to run the service.

This could potentially mean an open access operator could end up running the service.

Also, if it isn't EMT diverting one of the current hourly Nottingham - St. Pancras services to Kings Cross, where will the additional stock come from? Are there enough 180's currently stood spare to cover the service?
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I'd say an absolutely perfect run would be maybe 1h2min, 20 or so to Nottm, so 1h25 hopefully

I've just done a quick check and Nottingham to St. Pancras is roughly 1h45. An average time from Kings Cross to Grantham is 1h10 and the current Liverpool - Norwich service manages to do Grantham to Nottingham in 32 minutes. This gives a Kings Cross to Nottingham journey time of 1h42. Not a massive time saving.

The above times are just rough estimates given ehat is running now, but I do wonder if there will be this big saving in time by going via the East Coast.

 

[gordonthemoron]

The liverpool-Norwich services that I've used between Grantham & Nottingham have always arrived early. There seems to be little difference in duration for non-stop services & stoppers

 

[stut]

The liverpool-Norwich services that I've used between Grantham & Nottingham have always arrived early. There seems to be little difference in duration for non-stop services & stoppers

Same here - although they do have an 11 minute dwell time (and you can easily connect to the CrossCountry Birmingham service which it sidles in behind). I've been on one that was another 10 minutes early, where the guard suggested heading to the adjacent Pumpkin for a cuppa before heading on.

 

[swt_passenger]

The source document on NR's website, which is only a consultation draft, doesn't say that they (NR) are 'inviting tenders'. NR don't do that anyway.

East Coast Main Line Capacity Review 2016

It is one of the many ECML 2016 'aspirations', but NR go on to explain why it almost certainly won't happen - because it is a key part of the MML franchise (EMT).

This service would almost exclusively provide direct
trains between stations that already have a frequent
direct service provided by a Government franchised
operator, so it is likely that significant revenue would
be abstracted from this operator unless the new
service were also specified by Government. Prior to
specifying a franchise change of this nature,
Government would almost certainly wish to
understand whether the service increment could be
achieved more efficiently via the Midland Main Line,
which is the current route for London – Nottingham
services.

I wouldn't put Nottingham to KX in your long term diary...

 

[trentside]

Sorry if this goes slightly off-topic, but what are the obstacles to increasing speeds over the MML? I know that there are no sections of 125mph running, how un-realistic would it be to increase speeds - thus avoid the need to provide services over the ECML?

 

[gordonthemoron]

it's a bit windy in places

 

[Geezertronic]

it's a bit windy in places

It's a bit windy here too, I almost got blown over earlier

 

[sprinterguy]

This sounds like it could be a perfect route for the proposed Alliance Rail “GNER” open access operation, as well as their other planned routes.

Though, if it did ever happen, and became anything more than an aspiration, which I quite doubt anyway, and it went to a franchised operator, I would imagine it would go to East Coast, not EMT. No chance of Grantham to Nottingham being electrified, the service would undoubtedly use HSTs: Assuming a two hourly service frequency, coinciding with the London-Newark path of the pruned KX-Lincoln service proposed under Eureka, the service could just about be run with two HSTs, assuming a journey time each way of around 1hr 45mins, which with some fiddling of East Coasts’ HST “fill in” diagrams to Leeds and Newcastle during the day might be plausible with their current fleet.

It would be difficult to increase the speed to 125mph over large distances at the south end of the MML, as the EMT services need to be pathed through the slower Thameslink services that have more frequent stops, EMT have cited this as an issue with reducing journey times in the past. Although there is plenty of four tracking at this end of the route that must counteract some of these difficulties. And with the “wiggly” nature of the route, in other areas the only way to speed up line speeds would be with realignment of various corners, and possibly constructing “cut-off” sections to some of the tighter bends.

The biggest benefit to journey time that can be created on the MML is through employing trains with the fastest possible acceleration, as opposed to the highest possible speed, and the Meridians are ably suited to quick accelerations. It’s the reason that HSTs were deployed to the route (As well as to raise the image of the Midland Main Line): Not because of their 125mph top speed, but because with 4,500hp and only 8 carriages, they are a lot quicker off the mark than a class 45 and mark ones.

 

[bangor-toad]

This sounds like it could be a perfect route for the proposed Alliance Rail “GNER” open access operation, as well as their other planned routes.

Though, if it did ever happen, and became anything more than an aspiration, which I quite doubt anyway, and it went to a franchised operator, I would imagine it would go to East Coast, not EMT. No chance of Grantham to Nottingham being electrified, the service would undoubtedly use HSTs: Assuming a two hourly service frequency, coinciding with the London-Newark path of the pruned KX-Lincoln service proposed under Eureka, the service could just about be run with two HSTs, assuming a journey time each way of around 1hr 45mins, which with some fiddling of East Coasts’ HST “fill in” diagrams to Leeds and Newcastle during the day might be plausible with their current fleet.

Oooh, this inspires me with an idea...
Almost certainly in the realms of absolute fantasy but hey.

How about a service:
Kings X - Grantham (Non-stop). 2x Class 180 (or equivalent) units
Split at Grantham
Front portion to Nottingham
Rear Portion to Lincoln

Anybody lend me a few million quid and at least 4 sets for me to start an open access service?

Seriously though, why aren't splitting / joining services considered? They work very effectively (apart from passengers getting in the wrong bit) on Southern. Have you seen how slick the operation is to split & join trains at Haywards Heath?
Something like this would surely add capacity on the very crowded southern stretches of the ECML? Surely Grantham isn't the only place this could occur? What about Doncaster for Grand Central's Bradford and Sunderland services?

Cheers,
Jason
Jason

 

[Aictos]

If using 180s or 222s then splitting or joining at Grantham would be a better use of existing resources however obviously if HSTs were used then this would go out of the window.

If longer franchises became the norm and operators given much more freedom with regards to rolling stock, then Grand Central, EMT or East Coast could easily put in a order for more rolling stock which ought to be approved if there's little to no cost to the taxpayer ie if Stagecoach said they wanted to expand their 222 fleet they would be free to do so.

 

[The Planner]

The MML is getting sizeable parts of it tweaked to 125mph in the near future. Will take a minimum of 5 minutes off the Derby/Notts runs.