• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Kings Cross Remodelling Temporary Timetable Discussion

Status
Not open for further replies.

Hadders

Veteran Member
Associate Staff
Senior Fares Advisor
Joined
27 Apr 2011
Messages
13,360
Last edited by a moderator:
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Aictos

Established Member
Joined
28 Apr 2009
Messages
10,403
Noted that the 18:06 KXG-PBO peak extra was 8 cars yesterday, normally it would be 12. It left from P7 but I wonder if it was 8 car to give more platforming flexibility at KGX in the event of any disruption?
Maybe but more likely it's to do with the reduced passenger demand, as a example one of my daily Class 700 workings was diagrammed until recently as a 12 car but I've been advised it's been short formed to a 8 car instead due to being amended because of the reduced passenger demand.

So while it may have something to do with the King's Cross works, I wager it's more to do with the timetable being adjusted with the reduction of passengers
 

bramling

Veteran Member
Joined
5 Mar 2012
Messages
17,832
Location
Hertfordshire / Teesdale
Noted that the 18:06 KXG-PBO peak extra was 8 cars yesterday, normally it would be 12. It left from P7 but I wonder if it was 8 car to give more platforming flexibility at KGX in the event of any disruption?

I have a feeling it’s more down to passenger numbers. I seem to remember hearing that DFT are expecting TOCs to justify formation lengths now.

Certainly Southeastern have suddenly started running a lot more 4-cars on their mainline routes.

The 1805 is for definite booked as an 8-car for the time being, so it wasn’t a one-off.
 

OxtedL

Established Member
Associate Staff
Quizmaster
Joined
23 Mar 2011
Messages
2,575
Looks like both the Peterborough extras have been planned so that 12-cars could be used if needed. But as mentioned, more flexible not to, and no need for 12 right now.
 

bramling

Veteran Member
Joined
5 Mar 2012
Messages
17,832
Location
Hertfordshire / Teesdale
Looks like both the Peterborough extras have been planned so that 12-cars could be used if needed. But as mentioned, more flexible not to, and no need for 12 right now.

Presumably it's possible the original plan was to accommodate 12-cars as would have originally been booked, but since then DFT-et-al have stuck there nose in and we now have 8-cars?
 

Aictos

Established Member
Joined
28 Apr 2009
Messages
10,403
Definitely sounds like the DfT micro managing again, as a example one regular service I use was diagrammed as a 8 car then it went to a 12 car and now back to a 8 car for the foreseeable future.

Can't say I've actually seen any 4 car services on SE Mainline services, 99% have all been 8 cars that I've observed daily but that's not to say they don't run them as 4 cars, just saying I've never seen them.

Back to Kings Cross though, would it be at all possible for a limited number of TL Class 700s to end up at Kings Lynn say 3 return workings a day that are extensions of the Brighton to Cambridge's like the Bedford to Littlehamptons as a carry on effect from the temporary timetable?
 

Class 170101

Established Member
Joined
1 Mar 2014
Messages
7,962
Presumably it's possible the original plan was to accommodate 12-cars as would have originally been booked, but since then DFT-et-al have stuck there nose in and we now have 8-cars?
Make the politicans stand first before anyone else, if there is a shortage of seats.

Interestingly Platform 10 appears to see little use which suggests it was for the open access operators for most of the day.
 

DPQ

Member
Joined
4 Feb 2017
Messages
83
I believe the Peterborough services were going to be 12 carriages (as LNER was reduced to 2tph in the peak), and were reduced to 8 carriages when GTRs new Covid timetable took effect last week.

Platform 10 would have seen the peak Baldock services and off-peak open access.
 

bramling

Veteran Member
Joined
5 Mar 2012
Messages
17,832
Location
Hertfordshire / Teesdale
I believe the Peterborough services were going to be 12 carriages (as LNER was reduced to 2tph in the peak), and were reduced to 8 carriages when GTRs new Covid timetable took effect last week.

Platform 10 would have seen the peak Baldock services and off-peak open access.

Looking through it all, the current service plan seems to be as follows.

18 8-car formations in total, 2x365, 26x387, 4x700/0.

In essence, everything is 2x387 with the following exceptions.

2x365
5P05 0604 Peterborough Nene Carriage Sidings to Peterborough ECS
1P05 0637 Peterborough to King's Cross
5E52 0805 King's Cross to Hornsey Depot ECS
5P51 1735 Hornsey Depot to King's Cross ECS
1P52 1805 King's Cross to Peterborough
5P52 1925 Peterborough to Peterborough Nene Carriage Sidings ECS

700/0
5C00 0432 Hornsey Depot to King's Cross ECS
1C00 0503 King's Cross to Cambridge
2C09 0627 Cambridge to King's Cross
1T12 0812 King's Cross to Ely
1T19 0947 Ely to King's Cross
2C20 1129 King's Cross to Cambridge
2C37 1327 Cambridge to King's Cross
1T40 1512 King's Cross to Ely
1T47 1642 Ely to King's Cross
2C48 1829 King's Cross to Cambridge
2C65 2027 Cambridge to King's Cross
1T68 2212 King's Cross to Ely
5T68 2334 Ely to Cambridge Sidings North ECS

700/0
5T86 1512 Cambridge Sidings North to Cambridge ECS
2T86 1529 Cambridge to Ely
5T92 1557 Ely to Cambridge ECS
2T92 1621 Cambridge to Kings Lynn
1G51 1716 Kings Lynn to Cambridge
5T59 1822 Cambridge to Ely ECS
1T59 1945 Ely to King's Cross
2C60 2129 King's Cross to Cambridge
2C77 2335 Cambridge to King's Cross
5Y90 0125 King's Cross to Hornsey Depot ECS

700/0
5Y03 0525 Hornsey Depot to Finsbury Park ECS
2Y03 0530 Finsbury Park to King's Cross
2C00 0621 King's Cross to Cambridge
2C17 0827 Cambridge to King's Cross
1T20 1012 King's Cross to Ely
1T27 1154 Ely to King's Cross
2C28 1329 King's Cross to Cambridge
2C45 1527 Cambridge to King's Cross
1T48 1712 King's Cross to Ely
1T55 1853 Ely to King's Cross
2C56 2029 King's Cross to Cambridge
2C73 2227 Cambridge to King's Cross
2R72 0019 King's Cross to Royston
5C73 0130 Royston to Cambridge Sidings North ECS

700/0
5C05 0517 Cambridge Sidings North to Cambridge ECS
2C05 0527 Cambridge to King's Cross
1T08 0712 King's Cross to Ely
1T15 0845 Ely to King's Cross
2R16 1029 King's Cross to Letchworth Garden City
5R16 1135 Letchworth Garden City to Letchworth Carriage Sidings ECS
5R33 1230 Letchworth Carriage Sidings to Letchworth Garden City ECS
2R33 1300 Letchworth Garden City to King's Cross
1T36 1412 King's Cross to Ely
1T43 1543 Ely to King's Cross
2C44 1729 King's Cross to Cambridge
2C61 1927 Cambridge to King's Cross
1T64 2112 King's Cross to Ely
1T71 2246 Ely to King's Cross
5E42 0028 King's Cross to Hornsey Depot ECS

The two 2Yxx services would normally be to/from Welwyn stabling overnight at Welwyn carriage sidings (engineering work this week). As can be seen, the 700/0 diagrams cycle round Cambridge, Letchworth and Welwyn carriage sidings, which presumably allows units to be rotated as required with units which are stabled. Normal GN 700/0 diagrams is something like 11, so there will be a considerable number of units stabled each day.

As can be seen, there's plenty of 700/0 activity to Ely, however only one return trip to Kings Lynn. Plenty of 387 activity on the 2Cxx and 2Rxx services, normally heavily 700/0 dominated apart from Sundays.

All Peterborough-Horsham and Cambridge-Brighton services are 700/1 as far as I can see, though there is a 700/0 out as I write this on a Peterborough-Horsham diagram.

One other alteration, 1C76 0032 King’s Cross to Cambridge changes from 2x387 to 700/1. Without checking I’d expect there’s an extra Cambridge to Hornsey Depot ECS somewhere to balance this.

This is all rather different to what was originally planned, as a result of Covid.
 
Last edited:

Kieran1990

Member
Joined
29 Feb 2016
Messages
408
Location
Leeds
Aren’t some Anglo-Scottish LNER’s booked just 5 car Class 800/801’s due to partial closure of the cross? Or was I just seeing short forms on RTT yesterday?
 

bramling

Veteran Member
Joined
5 Mar 2012
Messages
17,832
Location
Hertfordshire / Teesdale
Aren’t some Anglo-Scottish LNER’s booked just 5 car Class 800/801’s due to partial closure of the cross? Or was I just seeing short forms on RTT yesterday?

Not as far as I can see; there is a diagram which has a pair of 5-cars to Edinburgh and back, and another which does some York trips, however in both cases they’re booked as a pair.

Having said that, whilst out walking earlier I did notice quite a few 5-cars coming past on their own.
 

43094

Member
Joined
19 May 2010
Messages
899
No Anglo-Scots booked a 5-car, any that run as that on the day are short-formed, of which there are a few at the moment.
 

bramling

Veteran Member
Joined
5 Mar 2012
Messages
17,832
Location
Hertfordshire / Teesdale
For those interested, I had a look at what the inners are doing during the current KX blockade timetable.

3 units start at Letchworth sidings, 1 from Hertford sidings, 6 from Welwyn sidings (one of which comes out at close of traffic and spends the night in platform 1), and 7 from Hornsey, making 17 diagrams in total. The December 2020 timetable essentially runs for the peaks giving 4tph to both branches, however no fewer than 7 units go away into Hornsey after the morning peak, leaving just 2tph to Welwyn and 2tph to Stevenage, calling at all stations. The 7 units come back out for the evening peak returning to the usual 4tph pattern, and go away again at the end of the evening peak again leaving 2tph to close of traffic. The only item of slight interest is one of the inter-peak stablers runs empty to Bowes Park and reverses off the platform to Hornsey, empty of course. Otherwise all rather mundane. Nothing booked to terminate at Gordon Hill (since last March), and everything at Hertford reverses via platform 3. Likewise the only use of Welwyn platform 1 is the first train of the morning, plus a Cambridge 700/0 is booked to use it in the early evening, but probably doesn’t in practice.

Hope that’s of interest.
 

Class 170101

Established Member
Joined
1 Mar 2014
Messages
7,962
For those interested, I had a look at what the inners are doing during the current KX blockade timetable.

3 units start at Letchworth sidings, 1 from Hertford sidings, 6 from Welwyn sidings (one of which comes out at close of traffic and spends the night in platform 1), and 7 from Hornsey, making 17 diagrams in total. The December 2020 timetable essentially runs for the peaks giving 4tph to both branches, however no fewer than 7 units go away into Hornsey after the morning peak, leaving just 2tph to Welwyn and 2tph to Stevenage, calling at all stations. The 7 units come back out for the evening peak returning to the usual 4tph pattern, and go away again at the end of the evening peak again leaving 2tph to close of traffic. The only item of slight interest is one of the inter-peak stablers runs empty to Bowes Park and reverses off the platform to Hornsey, empty of course. Otherwise all rather mundane. Nothing booked to terminate at Gordon Hill (since last March), and everything at Hertford reverses via platform 3. Likewise the only use of Welwyn platform 1 is the first train of the morning, plus a Cambridge 700/0 is booked to use it in the early evening, but probably doesn’t in practice.

Hope that’s of interest.

Surely the inners aren't affected by the Kings Cross works as they run to Moorgate rather they have been reduced because of covid and the reduced demand that flows from it?
 

bramling

Veteran Member
Joined
5 Mar 2012
Messages
17,832
Location
Hertfordshire / Teesdale
Surely the inners aren't affected by the Kings Cross works as they run to Moorgate rather they have been reduced because of covid and the reduced demand that flows from it?

Yes I believe that’s the case. Indeed the others were supposed to have had more running than they currently are, stuff like the Baldocks definitely were in the plan at one point. Likewise ISTR the original train plan had more 700/0 trips to Kings Lynn than the one return trip we currently see. The reduction in Peterborough peak services plus total elimination of 12-car 387 working has presumably allowed 387s to be wider spread than first envisaged. Being the GN’s “core” traction now, they seem to be the first choice.
 

Triumph

Member
Joined
5 Dec 2011
Messages
475
Interesting that a couple of the other COVID cuts which were supposed to happen didn't. These were cutting the CBG-BTN & HOR-PBO services down to hourly.
Also, it was odd to withdraw all the KGX-ELY's for a month only to put them back for the Kings X reduced platform timetable.
 

717001

Member
Joined
4 Aug 2018
Messages
221
Surely the inners aren't affected by the Kings Cross works as they run to Moorgate rather they have been reduced because of covid and the reduced demand that flows from it?
Yes they've been reduced because of covid, but believe there is also an impact from the works, in that Kings Cross isn't currently available as a back-up terminus if trains can't get into Moorgate for any reason. Currently there is only capacity to terminate and restart a certain number of Moorgate services south of Finsbury Park in the event of disruption, and then it takes time to detrain passengers first.
 

Ianno87

Veteran Member
Joined
3 May 2015
Messages
15,215
Yes they've been reduced because of covid, but believe there is also an impact from the works, in that Kings Cross isn't currently available as a back-up terminus if trains can't get into Moorgate for any reason. Currently there is only capacity to terminate and restart a certain number of Moorgate services south of Finsbury Park in the event of disruption, and then it takes time to detrain passengers first.

Although with current passenger numbers it can't take *that* long to detrain, and implementing a thinned out service as contingency would still have sufficient capacity.
 

Class315

Member
Joined
9 Feb 2008
Messages
328
Yes they've been reduced because of covid, but believe there is also an impact from the works, in that Kings Cross isn't currently available as a back-up terminus if trains can't get into Moorgate for any reason. Currently there is only capacity to terminate and restart a certain number of Moorgate services south of Finsbury Park in the event of disruption, and then it takes time to detrain passengers first.
The platform starter signal at Drayton Park on the up Moorgate (K360) was resighted and moved back 7 yards to enable 717’s to turnback in the platform, which is now a quicker process in comparison to the old method of turning back.
More drivers are beginning to sign the route into Canonbury so more options are available.
 

bramling

Veteran Member
Joined
5 Mar 2012
Messages
17,832
Location
Hertfordshire / Teesdale
The platform starter signal at Drayton Park on the up Moorgate (K360) was resighted and moved back 7 yards to enable 717’s to turnback in the platform, which is now a quicker process in comparison to the old method of turning back.
More drivers are beginning to sign the route into Canonbury so more options are available.

Is this a recent thing? I.e. were 717s not previously allowed to reverse at Drayton Park?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top