Kirkstall Forge & Apperley Bridge

[Ploughman]

What would the difference in distance be for anyone using the Shipley line as against a platform provided on the Ilkley side?

Not very much I would think. Hundred metres or so?
They would both access the same road wouldn't they?

 

[IanXC]

What would the difference in distance be for anyone using the Shipley line as against a platform provided on the Ilkley side?

Not very much I would think. Hundred metres or so?
They would both access the same road wouldn't they?

I'd agree there'd be little difference for travel towards Leeds. I guess the demand for travel to Shipley and Bradford (where the initial service is expected to be to) would be much higher than to Ilkley. If there's enough demand its probably not crazy to think Skipton services could call (perhaps after the proposed train lengthening), where Ilkley services are fairly well loaded in the peaks already, and there is little scope for train lengthening on this route.

 

[IanD]

I think I read somewhere (maybe on here!) that it was due to the gradient on the Ilkely line being too steep for a new station.

 

[Darren R]

There isn't really a suitable site that a platform could be built on the Ilkley line though. Historically Apperley Bridge & Rawdon never had platforms on the Ilkley line, and I thought the new station was being built on the site of the original station next to the A658 Apperley Lane bridge. In any case, Network Rail are not going to build an extra stop on the single-track section up to Guiseley; it's a restraint on capacity enough as things are!

 

[Bantamzen]

There isn't really a suitable site that a platform could be built on the Ilkley line though. Historically Apperley Bridge & Rawdon never had platforms on the Ilkley line, and I thought the new station was being built on the site of the original station next to the A658 Apperley Lane bridge. In any case, Network Rail are not going to build an extra stop on the single-track section up to Guiseley; it's a restraint on capacity enough as things are!

I was always under the impression that the station was next to the A658 too, and this article backs that up:

http://www.wymetro.com/news/projects/projectdetails/apperleybridge/

And this article suggests that the link road to the car park will be between Little Park & the Stansfield Arms pub (which is to the south of Little Park). On the map linked below, there are some power/telephone lines running north west across a field to the left of the A658 which is somewhere about where I would expect the road to the car park would run (the Stansfield Arms pub is just out of the frame to the south). This obviously points to the station itself being the west of the A658 & would rule out any possibility of an Ilkley-bound platform.

https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=Ap...y+Bridge,+West+Yorkshire,+United+Kingdom&z=18

Edit: Actually, a bit more digging around does show that the station / car park will be to the west of the A658. There is a bridge over the line to the west which leads from a road called "The Ave" across onto the fields south of the line. The station will seemingly be build around this bridge, with the east-bound platform to the west of this bridge, and the west-bound platform to the east of it. The main access road to the car park located to the south of the site will run between the Stansfield Arms & Little Park. There's various planning documents here:

http://www.planning4bradford.com/on...s.do?activeTab=documents&keyVal=KUFOBADHFH000

http://www.planning4bradford.com/on...09_05887_FUL-AMENDED_LOCATION_PLAN-968365.pdf

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

These stations appear to keep slipping repeatedly. Does anyone know why they have slipped further from November 2014 after the DfT approved the Leeds Rail Growth Package?

Can someone give the currently-stated completion projected dates on the two stations in the title of this thread.

 

[phil35]

May 2015 according to:

http://www.wymetro.com/news/projects/projectdetails/apperleybridge/
http://www.wymetro.com/news/projects/projectdetails/kirkstallforgerail/

 

[bluenoxid]

Apperley Bridge appears to be fairly secure for a May 2015 opening. Kirkstall Forge does not appear to be moving really.

 

[IanD]

The old station was to the East of the A658 so closer to the Ilkley branch but with no platforms on it, the new station will be to the West of the A658.

 

[telstarbox]

'Confirmed' by the DfT today: https://www.gov.uk/government/news/two-new-rail-stations-for-west-yorkshire

Two new stations on the rail line between Bradford and Leeds will improve transport links and support a major regeneration scheme following government agreement to make almost £10 million available to fund the project, Transport Secretary Patrick McLoughlin announced today (28 May 2014).

The Department for Transport will fund up to £9.5 million of the £16 million Leeds Rail Growth scheme. One of the new stations will support the development of the Kirkstall Forge site, which will include around 1,000 new homes and extensive commercial buildings.

The development is expected to support 300 jobs during construction. On completion it will create an estimated 1,800 jobs directly linked to the development and 300 more across the wider area.

 

[Bantamzen]

'Confirmed' by the DfT today: https://www.gov.uk/government/news/two-new-rail-stations-for-west-yorkshire

Good stuff, looks like work will be starting quite soon, with the stations open for the summer of next year.

I assume that both half-hourly daytime Bradford-Shipley-Leeds services will call at both once the new timetable is introduced? And more importantly will there be more evening services to serve the route, as the last ones current leave Bradford at 19:31 & Leeds at 19:10? These two stations could help reduce at least a bit of of the dreadful traffic problems along the Aire Valley, but it would be a shame not to offer something beyond a Bradford/Leeds commuter service & have at least something for the residents in the areas. There's quite a big catchment (and growing) in the Apperley Bridge area, and I assume that the Kirkstall Forge development will include a lot of residential builds.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Good stuff, looks like work will be starting quite soon, with the stations open for the summer of next year.

I wonder if Aire Valley commuters are looking forward to their extended journey times as a result?
Hopefully not all trains will call.

 

[deltic08]

I wonder if Aire Valley commuters are looking forward to their extended journey times as a result?
Hopefully not all trains will call.

Not only extended journey times for Aire Valley trains but reduction in capacity in what is already a very busy north/south freight route. Apperley Bridge-Leeds should be requadrified to allow non-stop passenger and freight trains to overtake.

 

[Bantamzen]

I wonder if Aire Valley commuters are looking forward to their extended journey times as a result?
Hopefully not all trains will call.

It's only the Leeds-Bradford services that will call there initally as I understand it, and these tend to be the lightest loaded services along the Aire.

Not only extended journey times for Aire Valley trains but reduction in capacity in what is already a very busy north/south freight route. Apperley Bridge-Leeds should be requadrified to allow non-stop passenger and freight trains to overtake.

I think there should be just about enough capacity to accomodate 2tph stopping at the two new stations (and bear in mind the Leeds-Ilkley services will not be affected by Apperley Bridge), but some redoubling work might be prudent for future proofing. It's certainly possible (if expensive) to do between Shipley & Leeds for pretty much all of the section. And of course doubling up might make it slightly more feasible for East Coast Services to operate more than 1 service to each of Bradford & Skipton, something that if could be accomodated would be more than welcome. But if this were to happen it would have to be factored into the design of the new stations, which sadly it is not.

 

[Starmill]

Thank goodness for that!

I'm sure an all-day service can be provided to these new stations. It would be utterly daft to have last trains around 1900 when trains leave Leeds for Skipton and Ilkley into the 2300s (some of the best evening services in WY). I'd guess this will be done by extending the current evening Bradford F Sq - Shipley shuttle thorugh to Leeds so that BDQ - LDS becomes an all-day service, or adding the stops to the Airedale/Wharefedale services in the evenings only, when they are less lightly loaded.

The point is, options are flexible.

 

[BantamMenace]

Haven't i read somewhere before that there has been talk of a bay at Keighley? This would make since for a Leeds to Keighley allstops and Leeds to Skipton going fast until Keighley. Would be great if this was done with quadrupling between Leeds and Shipley to allow the fast to overtake a Leeds - Bradford or Leeds - Keighley.

Also, when referring to the quadrupling between Leeds and Shipley people refer to it as reinstatement? If so, when was it quadruple in the first place and does the tunnel have a sister tunnel to take the other two lines?

 

[YorkshireBear]

Not a bay at Keighley (There is no room) but using a turnback to allow terminating services.

 

[Bantamzen]

Haven't i read somewhere before that there has been talk of a bay at Keighley? This would make since for a Leeds to Keighley allstops and Leeds to Skipton going fast until Keighley. Would be great if this was done with quadrupling between Leeds and Shipley to allow the fast to overtake a Leeds - Bradford or Leeds - Keighley.

Also, when referring to the quadrupling between Leeds and Shipley people refer to it as reinstatement? If so, when was it quadruple in the first place and does the tunnel have a sister tunnel to take the other two lines?

Yep, there is a second bore at the Thackley tunnel so quadrupling may be possible from Shipley (although a lot of reworking would be needed between Shipley and the tunnel to allow 4 tracking all the way). I've no idea what state the south bore is however, but it is there (see the pictures at the bottom of the page linked below):

http://www.friendsofbuckwood.org.uk/routes-and-transport-shaping-buck-wood.html

 

[yorksrob]

Yep, there is a second bore at the Thackley tunnel so quadrupling may be possible from Shipley (although a lot of reworking would be needed between Shipley and the tunnel to allow 4 tracking all the way). I've no idea what state the south bore is however, but it is there (see the pictures at the bottom of the page linked below):

http://www.friendsofbuckwood.org.uk/routes-and-transport-shaping-buck-wood.html

According to the excellent Forgotten Relics website, there's a block wall half way along it:

http://www.forgottenrelics.co.uk/tunnels/gallery/thackleyold.html

 

[Ploughman]

Thackley tunnel South bore would need major reinstatement works due to a number of collapses within it.

Formation between Shipley and Thackley was 4 track and is used by maintenance vehicles for access. Possible to reinstate but would mean resiting of all existing OHLE equipment.

Thackley to Calverley again is ex 4 track and the redundant formation is again used as trackside access. Maybe possible to get as far as Newlay with 4 track. Some resiting of existing OHLE would be needed including Apperley Jcn feeder station.

From Newlay to Br 24 at Kirkstall this is limited to 2 Track unless the bridge under the road junction is rebuilt. Possible to reinstate

Br 24 to Armley Jcn - Loops in place at Kirkstall but limited width available past industrial units built on former Fast lines.

 

[caliwag]

Surely there is/was a bay at Keighley, which is now a big untidy flowerbed and er a toilet. It faces Leeds and is on the North side.

 

[Deerfold]

Thank goodness for that!

I'm sure an all-day service can be provided to these new stations. It would be utterly daft to have last trains around 1900 when trains leave Leeds for Skipton and Ilkley into the 2300s (some of the best evening services in WY). I'd guess this will be done by extending the current evening Bradford F Sq - Shipley shuttle thorugh to Leeds so that BDQ - LDS becomes an all-day service, or adding the stops to the Airedale/Wharefedale services in the evenings only, when they are less lightly loaded.

The point is, options are flexible.

Whilst it would be good for these new stations to have an evening service the 2318 from Leeds towards on a Friday and Saturday is often crush-loaded already (with plenty getting off at Shipley). I'd hope the shuttle would be extended.

 

[Ploughman]

Surely there is/was a bay at Keighley, which is now a big untidy flowerbed and er a toilet. It faces Leeds and is on the North side.

I assume you mean the UP side.
Unlikely to be considered now due to the curveature.
Also I think the "New" bridge over the river would need to be adjusted to provide access.

 

[Deerfold]

Haven't i read somewhere before that there has been talk of a bay at Keighley?

This seems to have been discounted - see p71 of the Yorkshire RUS from 2009:

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse...shire and humber/yorkshire and humber rus.pdf

 

[BantamMenace]

This seems to have been discounted - see p71 of the Yorkshire RUS from 2009:

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse...shire and humber/yorkshire and humber rus.pdf

Very interesting, does anyone know when an updated version of this RUS will be available?

 

[HowardGWR]

Having looked at the plans, aerial views of Apperley Bridge, the station seems very remote from humanity. I think suburban stations work best when at the centre of their communities and with shops and so on adjacent. Had the station site been chosen adjacent to the road bridge, I could see a better chance of it being much better location, looking to the future, than this park and ride type location. There is also the security of vulnerable pax to take into account. Am I too censorious?

 

[Starmill]

Having looked at the plans, aerial views of Apperley Bridge, the station seems very remote from humanity. I think suburban stations work best when at the centre of their communities and with shops and so on adjacent. Had the station site been chosen adjacent to the road bridge, I could see a better chance of it being much better location, looking to the future, than this park and ride type location. There is also the security of vulnerable pax to take into account. Am I too censorious?

No, it's just the best spot given the available space. I agree people should be shortest walking distance as possible to encourage to use the train... but the line doesn't go through the local centres or densely populated areas.

And good luck tying to build well-located stations today, you can't knock ANYTHING down to prioritise a transport link.

 

[Grumpy]

Having looked at the plans, aerial views of Apperley Bridge, the station seems very remote from humanity. I think suburban stations work best when at the centre of their communities and with shops and so on adjacent. Had the station site been chosen adjacent to the road bridge, I could see a better chance of it being much better location, looking to the future, than this park and ride type location. There is also the security of vulnerable pax to take into account. Am I too censorious?

Whilst your general comments may be valid, I suspect that the site is too far away from housing either to the north or south to expect any significant numbers arriving on foot. In which case locating it next to the road bridge shouldn't make much difference. The road journey from the surrounding areas (and the target catchment must include much of Yeadon, Rawdon, Guiseley and North east Bradford) into Leeds and Bradford is terrible and the new station should be an attractive park/drop off and ride alternative.

The size of the car park will be a constraint on usage and I wonder how a return can be made on the disproportionate construction cost.

Perhaps it's time to have another look at reopening Calverley and Rodley given recent housing developments.

 

[GingerSte]

Yep, there is a second bore at the Thackley tunnel so quadrupling may be possible from Shipley (although a lot of reworking would be needed between Shipley and the tunnel to allow 4 tracking all the way). I've no idea what state the south bore is however, but it is there (see the pictures at the bottom of the page linked below):

http://www.friendsofbuckwood.org.uk/routes-and-transport-shaping-buck-wood.html

Would you need to 4-track all the way to Shipley, including the Thackley tunnel? Is that the limiting factor on the capacity of the line? If the tunnel has collapsed, then bringing it back into use would be a H&S nightmare.

I would have thought it would be easier to 4-track only as far as Calverley, giving a pair of tracks for the Shipley services and a pair of tracks for the Ilkley services (and the Horsforth services closer into Leeds).

Besides which, I would have thought the approach into Leeds would have been more of a limit. From memory, you have 3 pairs of tracks serving the following

• Woodlesford (Castleford)
• Huddersfield (Manchester)
• Wakefield (Doncaster / Sheffield)
• Bramley (Bradford / Halifax)
• Shipley (Bradford / Skipton)
• Ilkley
• Horsforth (Harrogate)

I would have thought that a fourth pair to the north would allow much more capacity for the region, by completely separating the Shipley services from the Ilkley and Horsforth services. All without messing about with tunnels. There would be new viaduct involved, but the area for this is relatively clear.

 

[deltic08]

Haven't i read somewhere before that there has been talk of a bay at Keighley? This would make since for a Leeds to Keighley allstops and Leeds to Skipton going fast until Keighley. Would be great if this was done with quadrupling between Leeds and Shipley to allow the fast to overtake a Leeds - Bradford or Leeds - Keighley.

Also, when referring to the quadrupling between Leeds and Shipley people refer to it as reinstatement? If so, when was it quadruple in the first place and does the tunnel have a sister tunnel to take the other two lines?

Quadrupling took place for opening in 1900. Prior to electrification, curves were eased for 90mph running encroaching on parts of the second solum. As has been mentioned already, feeder stations have been built as well.
Notwithstanding these, it would be possible to reinstate these lines together with a flyover near Armley to transpose both pairs of lines allowing freight off the Skipton line to access the Normanton route without conflicting with Bradford-Leeds traffic.

As Aire Valley power stations convert to biomass, coal traffic on the Leeds-Settle-Carlisle will reduce reducing congestion but who knows what passenger growth will be in ten years time with 60% growth in the last ten years?