Knottingley

[Bigman]

Given that the station is I believe not compliant with PRM regulations, and that you only ever get the odd train running through to Goole, would it not make sense to remodel the site and build a new station so that it is also on the Askern line? Looking at Goole I think there may be room to re-align the Goole line a bit to accommodate it.

 

[LMS 4F]

As no services run down the Askern line and I haven’t seen of any plans for them I can’t see the point. Grand Central did go that way but cut back to one a day I believe and I would worry about there long term future in the present circumstances.

 

[IanXC]

There is indeed no level access to platform 2, however, with the exception of services from Goole (2 per day) all services do, or can, use platform 1 which does have level access.

There is an aspiration from stakeholders for a station at Askern, which would imply a new service from Doncaster perhaps but not necessarily to Knottingley.

So does it "make sense" to remodel the station (by which you've really described building an entirely new station), I'd suggest not. There are much more effective ways you could spend that much money elsewhere if level access is your concern, equally your proposal would mean that a service that doesn't currently run (on the Askern line) could call at Knottingley, but trains to and from Goole could not.

 

[HST43257]

There is indeed no level access to platform 2, however, with the exception of services from Goole (2 per day) all services do, or can, use platform 1 which does have level access.

As fair as I was aware, P2 was used most of the time, or at least up until about a year ago...

Edit: P2 was mostly used today as well. Not sure what’s going on there.

 

[YorksLad12]

If the money was there you could rebuild P2 as an island with a new P3 for the Askern branch, single set of steps and ramp, both platforms bidi given the service levels (and close P1).

But even if you had the money you wouldn't have the patronage to make it worth while. Pontefract M gets almost twice as many, even though Knottingley is the first station in West Yorkshire (so you get the cheaper fares) on that side. And I don't think Askern is going to get £1m to reinstate the two platforms it wants in order to tempt GC to call to pick up a few additional passengers.

 

[HST43257]

If the money was there you could rebuild P2 as an island with a new P3 for the Askern branch, single set of steps and ramp, both platforms bidi given the service levels (and close P1).

But even if you had the money you wouldn't have the patronage to make it worth while. Pontefract M gets almost twice as many, even though Knottingley is the first station in West Yorkshire (so you get the cheaper fares) on that side. And I don't think Askern is going to get £1m to reinstate the two platforms it wants in order to tempt GC to call to pick up a few additional passengers.

My question would be, where do people living in Askern actually want to go?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

If the money was there you could rebuild P2 as an island with a new P3 for the Askern branch, single set of steps and ramp, both platforms bidi given the service levels (and close P1).

But even if you had the money you wouldn't have the patronage to make it worth while. Pontefract M gets almost twice as many, even though Knottingley is the first station in West Yorkshire (so you get the cheaper fares) on that side. And I don't think Askern is going to get £1m to reinstate the two platforms it wants in order to tempt GC to call to pick up a few additional passengers.

The rules for "new" island platforms are quite stringent in terms of width, so unless P2 would be grandfathered in (unlikely if it had a new face added) it wouldn't be suitable. As for Askern, is that in West Yorkshire or in the East Riding? If it's in West Yorkshire, good luck getting anything from the Combined Authority unless you can (a) convince them it somehow serves Leeds; or (b) find a facility 15 minutes walk away that you claim will be served by your new station.

 

[IanXC]

As for Askern, is that in West Yorkshire or in the East Riding?

Neither, its in the Metropolitan District of Doncaster, and so part of South Yorkshire.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Neither, its in the Metropolitan District of Doncaster, and so part of South Yorkshire.

Travel South Yorkshire seem to be a bit more sensible with their budgets at least... which probably means a station for Askern is a non-starter!

 

[Bigman]

Thanks for the comments. Always good to gauge opinions.

 

[YorksLad12]

My question would be, where do people living in Askern actually want to go?

Doncaster, probably. I don't think there's a huge, untapped market for people wanting to visit Knottingley, Pontefract or Castleford, but we could probably survey the whole population of Askern in one afternoon.

The rules for "new" island platforms are quite stringent in terms of width, so unless P2 would be grandfathered in (unlikely if it had a new face added) it wouldn't be suitable. As for Askern, is that in West Yorkshire or in the East Riding? If it's in West Yorkshire, good luck getting anything from the Combined Authority unless you can (a) convince them it somehow serves Leeds; or (b) find a facility 15 minutes walk away that you claim will be served by your new station.

Good point. I'd say there's double the present platform width available all together, but you'd still have to move track around and add pointwork, which pushes the cost upwards. Askern is just north of Doncaster; if you built a P&R station north of the old station, between Askern and Notton, you might have a chance assuming you could get passenger trains running regularly on that stretch. As far as I'm aware it didn't make the Reverse Beeching list.

Thanks for the comments. Always good to gauge opinions.

In a way, the question really is "Why is Knottingley not as popular as Steeton & Silsden, or Horsforth, or Micklefield?" They all attract passengers from just over the border and have full (and sometimes extended) car parks. Without building some sort of Ferrybridge Parkway on the power station site(!) how can we make Knottingley more attractive to M62 travellers that would warrant greater investment in the station?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

In a way, the question really is "Why is Knottingley not as popular as Steeton & Silsden, or Horsforth, or Micklefield?" They all attract passengers from just over the border and have full (and sometimes extended) car parks. Without building some sort of Ferrybridge Parkway on the power station site(!) how can we make Knottingley more attractive to M62 travellers that would warrant greater investment in the station?

At a guess, the answers to that question are: relatively long and indirect journey to Leeds compared to the others; located in a less affluent area so fewer commuters to Leeds; and (in comparison to Steeton) no "Sparks effect".

 

[LMS 4F]

Doncaster, probably. I don't think there's a huge, untapped market for people wanting to visit Knottingley, Pontefract or Castleford, but we could probably survey the whole population of Askern in one afternoon.


Good point. I'd say there's double the present platform width available all together, but you'd still have to move track around and add pointwork, which pushes the cost upwards. Askern is just north of Doncaster; if you built a P&R station north of the old station, between Askern and Notton, you might have a chance assuming you could get passenger trains running regularly on that stretch. As far as I'm aware it didn't make the Reverse Beeching list.


In a way, the question really is "Why is Knottingley not as popular as Steeton & Silsden, or Horsforth, or Micklefield?" They all attract passengers from just over the border and have full (and sometimes extended) car parks. Without building some sort of Ferrybridge Parkway on the power station site(!) how can we make Knottingley more attractive to M62 travellers that would warrant greater investment in the station?

Knottingley is surrounded by North Yorkshire but all the nearby villages are very small and some of them would have better options for travel to Leeds than going to Knottingley.
Add to that a journey time which is hardly quick by either route to Leeds then it doesn’t really have a lot going for it.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Build a Ferrybridge (parkway-esque, lots of parking) station to take into account platforms for York - Baghill - Sheffield, Goole - Knottingley - Leeds and whatever else. Four platforms, of course. Get a half-hourly service to Leeds via whichever route is best (probably via Glasshoughton, Castleford and Woodlesford), as well as an hourly service from Leeds to Goole via Westgate and Kirkgate. Add to that an enhanced York - Sheffield, and you're pretty much there.

Upgrade Whitley Bridge as it's on the M62 and terminate the half-hourly "Ferrybridge" from Leeds via Castleford there out of the way; or run one to Donny via Askern.

 

[YorksLad12]

I drew a speculative MetroTrain map last year which had a Ferrybridge Parkway station

And I am certainly in favour of restoring a regular service to Goole. Close Hensall, concentrate services on an extended Whitley Bridge... but that's in North Yorkshire (Selby) so not going to happen.

 

[Halifaxlad]

I had an idea a while back to put a chord in above Sherburn in Elmet to the Leeds line and another chord after South Milford to the York lines to create a loop that would also allow services to carry onto places such as Castleford & Wakefield via Sherburn in Elmet, thinking about it now just the Northern most chord could also allow services to Knottingley.

 

[30907]

In a way, the question really is "Why is Knottingley not as popular as Steeton & Silsden, or Horsforth, or Micklefield?" They all attract passengers from just over the border and have full (and sometimes extended) car parks. Without building some sort of Ferrybridge Parkway on the power station site(!) how can we make Knottingley more attractive to M62 travellers that would warrant greater investment in the station?

As a Parkway type station Steeton benefits from excellent road access from the West followed by indifferent roads East (after Bingley) especially to Leeds, whereas Knottingley has poor access from the M62 which continues (congested, I know) to Leeds etc.

 

[billio]

Build a Ferrybridge (parkway-esque, lots of parking) station to take into account platforms for York - Baghill - Sheffield, Goole - Knottingley - Leeds and whatever else. Four platforms, of course. Get a half-hourly service to Leeds via whichever route is best (probably via Glasshoughton, Castleford and Woodlesford), as well as an hourly service from Leeds to Goole via Westgate and Kirkgate. Add to that an enhanced York - Sheffield, and you're pretty much there.

Upgrade Whitley Bridge as it's on the M62 and terminate the half-hourly "Ferrybridge" from Leeds via Castleford there out of the way; or run one to Donny via Askern.

The Selby local plan is proposing a large scale residential development at Eggborough which is adjacent to Whitley Bridge station. The station may also be suitable for a Park and Ride site as it is very close to the A19 intersection with the M62. There looks to be a turn-back about half a mile further east at the junction for the line to the power station.

Longer term it is not clear what will happen to the site of the Eggborough power station.

------------

I have always thought that the old line that entered Ferrybridge power station could be extended with a mile of extra track to join up with the Castleford to Burton Salmon line. I believe a 125 did once try to take this route rather prematurely.

Such a link would provide a direct route to Knottingley and beyond without reversal and a route from Leeds to Doncaster via Askern.

 

[YorksLad12]

The Selby local plan is proposing a large scale residential development at Eggborough which is adjacent to Whitley Bridge station. The station may also be suitable for a Park and Ride site as it is very close to the A19 intersection with the M62. There looks to be a turn-back about half a mile further east at the junction for the line to the power station.

Longer term it is not clear what will happen to the site of the Eggborough power station.

I have always thought that the old line that entered Ferrybridge power station could be extended with a mile of extra track to join up with the Castleford to Burton Salmon line. I believe a 125 did once try to take this route rather prematurely.

Such a link would provide a direct route to Knottingley and beyond without reversal and a route from Leeds to Doncaster via Askern.

Does the local plan mention transport links, or do they assume such things "just happen"? it would be prime P&R territory, with lots of households wanting to get to the nearest large population centres in either direction, plus the M62 junction. Knottingley is closer to the M62/A1(M) intersection, and Ferrybridge Services, but with less space to build in and around.

The line does run through Ferrybridge to connect with that line (at least, it looks as if it does), but north of Ferry Fryston and not as a triangle junction (so you couldn't just divert at Knottingley and enter Cas from the north).

 

[billio]

Does the local plan mention transport links, or do they assume such things "just happen"? it would be prime P&R territory, with lots of households wanting to get to the nearest large population centres in either direction, plus the M62 junction. Knottingley is closer to the M62/A1(M) intersection, and Ferrybridge Services, but with less space to build in and around.

The line does run through Ferrybridge to connect with that line (at least, it looks as if it does), but north of Ferry Fryston and not as a triangle junction (so you couldn't just divert at Knottingley and enter Cas from the north).

The plan mentions improvements to the station but also notes there are very few trains.

 

[YorksLad12]

The plan mentions improvements to the station but also notes there are very few trains.

That's the "Catch-22" sort-of argument I raised a few months ago. Passenger counts at those stations are low because there are few (three) trains per day; there are few trains per day because passenger counts are low. Running a few extra through trains to Goole every day would help show if there is suppressed demand, or even a commitment to run trains to/from Goole every two hours once people start moving into the new housing. Kirkstall Forge was built to make the development site more attractive, there's very little there at the moment and even less in 2016 - but that's Leeds for you.

 

[Ploughman]

It's not just providing the trains, it's the timing of them at times people want to travel.